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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: ilyafish on November 30, 2008, 10:03:33 PM



Title: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: ilyafish on November 30, 2008, 10:03:33 PM
do I remove the rusted frame pieces and weld new ones on in the same place, or weld diagonal braces and keep the rusted ones in place, or just weld horizontal pieces about 6 inches above the existing pieces. Sorry may seem like an obvious answer but I have never dealt with something like this so I'm quite a bit in the dark here. Thanks guys!


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Sojourner on November 30, 2008, 11:24:46 PM
iminaccess...could you please attach 1 or 2 photos for us to give the direct to the point of "how to"? We can get the idea of exactly what part is rusted and how bad it is.

I can give you a made up drawing via cad and show you the choices to correct the problem...free.

I am a retired fabricator of prototype cars at GM Tech Center, Warren, Mi. I rebuild my MCI-8 into 102" by 43.5 foot. Before I retired I was not able to do good welding any more do to my hand shaking. What I am saying is my bus project does not have the weld beads I likes but it will hold.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Songman on December 01, 2008, 12:28:51 AM
Others know more than me, but I have always been told that if you don't get rid of the rust that it will continue to eat away at the material. I would cut it out and replace it personally.


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: JohnEd on December 01, 2008, 12:51:56 AM
What Songman said!!!!

I think Gumpy's site has a lot of pics of the before and after of rebuilding the bottom of the vert braces.  The vert segment that is rusted is cut off above the rust.  The plate that is welded over the vert and hor joint is reman and replaced. 

The diag braces that I have sen were of smaller size than the rest of the orig metal. The piece was put in with the outside surface in contact with the exterior skin.  That left a space where the spray foam could cover all metal and isolate it from the interior surface.  Unless you remove the exterior skin you will not be able to weld the outside seam on the new material.  I think the diag makes up for that slight reduction in structural integrity of the original stuff that can't be welded all the way around the bottom.

And again, what Songman said!!!  Something like Rust Bullet is a must. Everything should get a good rust inhibitor coating before you spray foam.

HTH,

John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: ilyafish on December 01, 2008, 01:45:15 PM
here are some pictures of the rust

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3526/photo1pn5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/photo1pn5.jpg/1/w600.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img89/photo1pn5.jpg/1/)

(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8948/photo3jw0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/photo3jw0.jpg/1/w600.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img74/photo3jw0.jpg/1/)

(http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1981/photo4cp2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/photo4cp2.jpg/1/w600.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img296/photo4cp2.jpg/1/)

(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4672/photoxt7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/photoxt7.jpg/1/w600.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img141/photoxt7.jpg/1/)



Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: buswarrior on December 01, 2008, 02:08:32 PM
Where's the rust?

I see metal with brown dust on it.

Clean 'er up and spray with the rust paint of your choice?

But, then, I'm all for minimalist....

happy coaching!
buswarrior



Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: JohnEd on December 01, 2008, 03:38:55 PM
cut out all the rusty steel and weld in new pieces of square tubing.  At the bottom weld a plate over the junction so it will be stronger than new.

Sorry to see all that rust in there.  I guess you can understand why some of us were adament about your inspecting that area.  your on the right track now.  check gumpy's site for how he fixed it.

good luck,

john


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: niles500 on December 01, 2008, 03:47:23 PM
That'll buff right out ;D


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Dallas on December 01, 2008, 03:51:09 PM
Jeeez,

I couldn't sleep at night knowing you were in such an unsafe machine.

So, I'll tell ya what I'm gonna do....

You sign that nasty ol' bus over to me, and I'm sure I can find you a nice clean school bus that will fit your budget, and keep mama really happy by the beauty of it's yaller paint!

 ;D

On the serious side, ALL buses rust, even our venerable GMC's, as much as we hate to admit it.

Yours isn't as bad as some I've seen and shouldn't be too hard to fix.

Cut out the bad, weld in the new, making sure you replace everything that needs it.

Dallas


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: gyrocrasher on December 01, 2008, 04:27:43 PM
That'll buff right out ;D

Thanks Niles. I just spit adult beverage on my keyboard! :D :D


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Jriddle on December 01, 2008, 06:40:34 PM
Sorry to see so much rust in this section you have uncovered. I assume you need to take more panels off and will find more rust. Looks like time to get a good buy on some metal tubing and start welding in new bracing. The best way will be by taking off the outside panels so you can weld all the way around the new braces. If you remove the outside panels you will need to support the bus to keep it from sagging. Gumpy has a good section how he did it on his site.
John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: ilyafish on December 01, 2008, 07:12:43 PM
what is the link to gumpy's site?


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: wvanative on December 01, 2008, 07:30:23 PM
Here is the link to grumpys site.
http://www.gumpydog.com/bus/

WvaNative


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: ilyafish on December 01, 2008, 07:49:40 PM
I am having problems accessing gumpy's site...anyone else having this issue or is it just me?


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Paladin on December 01, 2008, 07:53:26 PM
Works for me:

http://www.gumpydog.com/bus/site_map.htm


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: ilyafish on December 01, 2008, 07:58:20 PM
hmm...still no luck, must be an issue on my end


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Jriddle on December 01, 2008, 08:23:47 PM
I tried both links here and had no problem getting to his site. He has a good write up and lots of pictures. It will be a lot of work but you will have a good safe structure if done right. I didn't have this problem with my MC-9. I did remove my inside panels and added bracing to help re enforce the structure for the missing inside panels. Good luck as it will be a lot of work.

John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Songman on December 01, 2008, 11:35:17 PM
Gary LaBombard probably knows more about rust repair than anyone I know. You might check out his site and pick up his CD on rust repair.

http://www.busconverter101.com/


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: bruceknee on December 02, 2008, 03:52:42 AM
You are close to NJ ED, you should hook up with him, he's been where you are now


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: circusboy90210 on December 02, 2008, 04:48:17 AM
hmm...still no luck, must be an issue on my end
I'm guessing the problem is the loose nut behind the keyboard.


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: johns4104s on December 02, 2008, 06:14:59 AM
I understand the braces behind the panels on my 1981 MC9 had to be cut out and replaced, Yours dont look bad to me.

They make a rust paint called hammeright, developed in the UK, were you always have rust to contend with. It sprays or paints on and when dry it breaks down the rust and somehow strengthen it better than original.

John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: luvrbus on December 02, 2008, 06:35:29 AM
 We Eagle owners can tell you how to fix the rust the right way, your are wasting your time to cover it up cut it out and repair it right.Now if we could get the Prevost owners of the XL to post photos of their rust problems     

good luck


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Jeremy on December 02, 2008, 07:08:32 AM
They make a rust paint called hammeright, developed in the UK, were you always have rust to contend with. It sprays or paints on and when dry it breaks down the rust and somehow strengthen it better than original.

John



It's spelt Hammerite in fact (http://www.hammerite.com/uk/ (http://www.hammerite.com/uk/)). It's good stuff but I don't know that it's any better than the American products I have heard people talk about (Rustbullet & POR-15 etc). Neither of those are available here, but I've always assumed they were basically the same sort of Phosphoric Acid-based product. I'm sure no product will 'strengthen the metal better than original', but converting iron oxide (ie. rust) into Magnetite or iron phosphate is a relatively simple chemical process. Historically professional bodyshops would use neat Phosphoric Acid to do the job, but I think it is illegal in most countries now.

My bus doesn't appear to have any rust incidentally, but it seems to have better rust-prevention (rubber drain hoses from body frame etc) than is typical with your Yank stuff.

Jeremy


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: busshawg on December 02, 2008, 07:38:50 AM
The rust doesn't look too bad other than the bracing that is pretty much gone at the bottom. As others have mentioned I don't see a need to get mid-evil with it. It looks much like my MC-9 when I stipped it. I simply cut out the rusted areas one at a time and replaced it with new metal. The rust that apprears on you chair rails doesn't look too bad. I would clean it up and paint it. When your cleaning up some of your rusted areas you will notioce how bad the rust is. If you find the metal is simple falling apart , replace it. If the rust is coming off and you can get down to the actual metal , paint it. I realize that several people on this board have gone and replaced everything and that I'm sure is better but I don't see anything wrong with the above procedure either. You are at the stage where you can add some extra support as well. remember the spray in insulation will add lots of support as well but you must have the bones.

Have fun


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Jriddle on December 02, 2008, 05:05:04 PM
I guess I need different glasses I thought all the pictures looked BAD.

John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: JohnEd on December 02, 2008, 06:20:35 PM
Guys,

Seriously, can't he do this without removing the outside skin?  It would mean he would not hit one side of the replacement tubing.  He would compensate for that with the diagonal braces he adds.  Not arguing for a poorly done job,now.  Honest!!


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: circusboy90210 on December 02, 2008, 06:35:14 PM
wow only bout 70 hours tween removing outer panels & a partial frame off restore . might as well take care of that& jack the bus up & check out everything else while you have the .chance


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Jriddle on December 02, 2008, 07:26:21 PM
Depending on how many supports that have to be repaired. You may need to remove a lot of rivits on the outside panels in one area you might as well remove panel and weld all the way around. The cross members in between the sections would give strength for and aft and keep bus from sagging. The weld missing on the outside might compromise the side to side strength. I'm not schooled in such things and believe the bus may be alright with one missing weld. I for one would prefere to weld all the way around.

My thoughts John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: JohnEd on December 02, 2008, 08:22:15 PM
Circus,

Sarcasm will not only be permitted but it will be graded as well.  Straight "A" so far.

JRiddle,

I'm with you.  Err on the side of caution.  Still, I think it is his call and he knows his sched and $ and skills.  I was wondering out loud about welding three sides and installing a brace being as strong as the original.  Hold on here....isn't the vert member a sheet metal form and doesn't it have only three sides to begin with?  I feel so vindicated!!!!!   True, right?

What has perplexed me from the start of this thread is that the guy is going to cut braces along the side and NOBODY has mentioned bracing the entire coach to prevent the thing from going swayback on him.  You never notice that happening from inside.  Once you get everything welded up you will have whatever curve, or lack thereof, that was in it at the time.  I thought people spent an entire day getting a 9 jacked and braced befor they cut braces.  Never did it though.

Unless this guy is 5'6" or so and is the "tall one" in the family, someone should have told him what the very first step in converting a 9 should be......Raise the roof 8 inches. True, right?  The second is spray foam after electricks.

John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: ilyafish on December 02, 2008, 11:47:20 PM
how structural are the chair rails?  i finished the lovely task of grinding the hundreds of rivets on the drivers side today, seems the front section is the only section that really has rust, everything else is surface rust so i will just take the surface rust down with a wire brush, get some por 15 and paint it.  but yea, the pictures i sent is the only serious stuff, and its in the front 2 windows section.  i have yet to get to the other side though, that i my job for tomorrow.

judging from the rest of the bus though, besides that one section, i think i will be okay with keeping the outer panels on....if there was a ton or rust i would think differently, but so far on the drivers side there is only those pictures....literally the rest of the side as i uncovered today was almost pristine.

also, for those with mc9s.....i havent removed the front inner panel on the drivers side because there is a hole in the panel on the front bottom by the drivers console that has two wires coming through, one thick black wire, and another thick wire thats inside a flexible metal casing.  where are these wires to?  i have yet to completely uncover the roof of the bus, but it appears that the black wire has something to do with the televisions or lights in the overhead bays, not sure about the one in the metal casing.  but i basically cant remove the front inner panel without either cutting these wires or tracing them and pulling them out.  so i just want to know what they are before i do something dumb and regret it.

John, raising the roof was something i have been wanting to do, but as much as i would like to, it would take a whole different dimension to my project and with our finances, would ultimately make the difference from being able to complete it, to having a work in progress sitting for alot longer.  also being the band lived in a van for 3 months this summer with no a/c and doing a primarily midwest and southern tour....we tend to be not picky at all.  after sleeping in seats that dont lower any more than a 45 degree angle, having a bed to lay on is good enough for us, so though a raised roof is not that much of a priority.  all the ducting and electrical will be running underneath as we are using the OTR a/c. so again, a raised roof would be super nice and ideal, but i think i will have to pass unfortunately.

i am still debating on spray foam but i think i might end up going with dow foam sheets from lowes. this is just again, alot more affordable, and as much as for even a structural basis i would love to spray foam, it just is not in our budget at this time. i will be constructing the bus though in a manner where if at some point in time i did want to spray foam, it would not be a super hard task to take the bus apart.  yea i know it sounds silly and if i had a choice obviously do it now while i can, but i am working with funds provided by the band and ultimately it is what it is. (not to mention im a 21 year old kid and we only tour maybe 6-7 months a year and the rest we are home, and the band being my fulltime job, when were not touring i gotta give myself something to do, so i might as well go ahead and rip apart the coach i built just to insulate, and then put it all back together.....and in all honesty that sounds really fun to me haha)

haha yes i realize how stupid that whole last paragraph was, not to mention impractical by all means, but like i said, it gives me something to do :p



Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: niles500 on December 03, 2008, 01:12:19 AM
IM - You can disregard all that spray foam being "structural" gooblygook - you will not find any ASTM structural standards for spray foam - HTH


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Jriddle on December 03, 2008, 04:34:46 AM
There are ways to get the weld on the back side. If you only have a few braces to fix you could cut the front to access the back and weld from the inside then weld the access hole up. It is kind of a pain in the A#$ but will work and for a few braces shouldn't be that hard. Glad to here about not much rusting in the rest of the bus good luck. That front panel had radio antenna wires in it on mine that panel was also a pain in A#$.
PS I'm 5'7" and didn't raise mine either.


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: busshawg on December 03, 2008, 07:10:02 AM
I just wanted to say , good for you for taking on such a project and being responsible about it. There are more of us our here than maybe wnt to admit it, but the all mighty $$$ does prevail. The insulation from Lowes will work fine just seal it off with spray on the edges to help with the isulation factor and squeaking. I never did it this way so I don't really know but have been told by others it works very well.  Not sure what the wires are for, although I do remember cutting mine. 

Have fun


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: circusboy90210 on December 03, 2008, 07:24:14 AM
Circus,

Sarcasm will not only be permitted but it will be graded as well.  Straight "A" so far.

JRiddle,

I'm with you.  Err on the side of caution.  Still, I think it is his call and he knows his sched and $ and skills.  I was wondering out loud about welding three sides and installing a brace being as strong as the original.  Hold on here....isn't the vert member a sheet metal form and doesn't it have only three sides to begin with?  I feel so vindicated!!!!!   True, right?

What has perplexed me from the start of this thread is that the guy is going to cut braces along the side and NOBODY has mentioned bracing the entire coach to prevent the thing from going swayback on him.  You never notice that happening from inside.  Once you get everything welded up you will have whatever curve, or lack thereof, that was in it at the time.  I thought people spent an entire day getting a 9 jacked and braced before they cut braces.  Never did it though.

Unless this guy is 5'6" or so and is the "tall one" in the family, someone should have told him what the very first step in converting a 9 should be......Raise the roof 8 inches. True, right?  The second is spray foam after electricks.

John
well surprisingly enough I was not trying to be sarcastic that time but well now that you mention raising the roof. might as well just take the whole bus apart and fix everything at once while it's apart & everything is easier to work with & access. but then again I"m the person who ended up doing frame up restoration on a vw bug for something similar . one thing led to the other while I had it apart for repairing heater channels. one thing lead to another. then I had the the whole  car apart & repaired & or replaced everything that was exposed & took other things down another level that depended on those other things being removed etc... blah blah ad nausium


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Sojourner on December 03, 2008, 07:54:19 AM
About the missing weld joint at the outer-skin side.weld a .083 inch or 14 gauge narrow vertical plate of 3.5 inch or wider mild steel at the bottom and top while the skin on. Then you weld 1 inch square steel tubing vertically in middle of the welded-in plate and a few stitches of 1 inch weld of both side of tubing to plate as well around the remaining exposed end of the tubing.

The second reason for the plate is to have room to re-rivet with structural type rivets

See attachment....the right half side is the plate welded first and then tube added to plate to be welded like the left half of the view.

The bottom-line is there is no need to remove outer skin to repair the damage or rusted framing.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: busshawg on December 03, 2008, 08:48:57 AM
there you have it, I'm with Gerald


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: gumpy on December 03, 2008, 09:00:01 AM
One of the problems you will find if you leave the outer skin in place, is that the rust that is falling out of your rusted members will work it's way down between the skin and frame, and will cause a slight bulge as it pushes the skin outward. This gets amplified as you try to cut the old rusted member out without cutting a hole in the outer skin. You try to push the skin away a bit to make a slight more room for the cutting tool, and in doing so you create a little larger cavity for the rust to fall into. Eventually, you decide you just need to remove the lower rivet line of the skin just to get the rust out from between.

You'll see.

BTDT

craig


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: Sojourner on December 03, 2008, 09:28:25 AM
One of the problems you will find if you leave the outer skin in place, is that the rust that is falling out of your rusted members will work it's way down between the skin and frame, and will cause a slight bulge as it pushes the skin outward. This gets amplified as you try to cut the old rusted member out without cutting a hole in the outer skin. You try to push the skin away a bit to make a slight more room for the cutting tool, and in doing so you create a little larger cavity for the rust to fall into. Eventually, you decide you just need to remove the lower rivet line of the skin just to get the rust out from between.

You'll see.

BTDT

craig


Amen Craig! In some cases like my Sojourner MCI-8 was appearing as bad (or worse) as the iminaccess posted photos shows did not need to remove the few rivets. However I have seen other bus nuts MCI that were showing white bubbling spots on under painted surface on the outside of the skin.

Whatever you do...look for light bubbling under (or removed) painted surface....if it shows....then you need to do what Craig quoted. And clean it out very good to avoid redundancy problem.

Thank you Craig for the very important post.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: JohnEd on December 03, 2008, 01:37:56 PM
Circus,

Webster defines "sarcasm" as "the wit of the master"..... it wasn't a negative comment I made.  That is, unless you thrive on negativity. ???  There, see what Webster means. 8)  Stay frosty.

Thanks,

John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: JohnEd on December 03, 2008, 01:48:35 PM
IM,

Like that "old Expert" said.."you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want".  You are doing what any of us would do in your shoes, which is do the best you can with the resources you have.  That has to be smart.

If your only rust is at the front of the bus you can forget about blocking the middle to prevent sagging.  Raising the roof is an undertaking and if you don't need it you are bypassing a standard expense most endure.  Going with foam board is "good enuf" from an insulation standpoint.  The "structural" aspect of sprayed is in the quieting performance.  Make sure you use the canned spray in all the cracks and crevices AND cover all seams with that "metal" duct tape or sub.

I never dreamed you were 21. You sound much more mature than that to me.  Good parents or innate talent one. 

Good luck with you project and NO, you have never sounded DUMB to me and I doubt to any other.

John


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: circusboy90210 on December 03, 2008, 03:19:50 PM
Circus,

Webster defines "sarcasm" as "the wit of the master"..... it wasn't a negative comment I made.  That is, unless you thrive on negativity. ???  There, see what Webster means. 8)  Stay frosty.

Thanks,

John
thank You then.


Title: Re: You were right...rust behind inner panels, what do I do to fix it?
Post by: ilyafish on December 03, 2008, 05:00:29 PM
thank you for the kind words John....good parents definately!

i appreciate everyones help and guidance on this issue....you all have been more than good to me!