Bus Conversion Magazine Bulletin Board

Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Blacksheep on January 10, 2009, 03:34:01 PM



Title: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 10, 2009, 03:34:01 PM
I have just about exhausted every bit of literature, charts, friends, time, and nerves on it trying to diagnose the run problem and although I worked popping corn today and made great money, it doesn't make up for the frustration I have gone thru since coming home and working on it until it was too dark to see. I even hooked up my pro-link as suggested and it told me no more than what I already knew. I even went back and put everything back to the way it was before I "fixed" the charging problem and it still doesn't run. If someone EVER tries to tell me that the new electronic buses are good, they better stand clear for a really good bashing! I wouldn't give you a nickle for ten of them ever again! If I could find me a good ole mechanical set-up in a good bus and deal a trade I just might be up for it! Susan would never go for it but she doesn't understand the frustration either!

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm about ready to go get some gas! This is pure BS and very frustrating! It's not like I won't take the damn thing to the shop and spend the money it takes to get it right. I can't get the ^$%#ing thing to run to get it there! How bad is that? I thought when I had the engine shut down intermittenly was bad but this crap beats everything I have seen yet  EVERYTHING I have checked and rechecked is good. Short of replacing EVERYTHING, i'd be better off trashing this piece of crap and starting all over again!

Yea I know, I'm just venting but damn it gets old!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: jjrbus on January 10, 2009, 04:07:37 PM
 Well Ace I can relate and I feel for you. Can't help but would if I could.   HTH Jim


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Chopper Scott on January 10, 2009, 04:11:20 PM
I've had those experiences before also, just not with a big bus!! Best of luck is about all I can offer except maybe walk away for a couple days and forget about it. I've called it a day on a problem only to return and the answer is right there. I just needed to refresh my outlook.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Len Silva on January 10, 2009, 04:44:02 PM
Don't blame you a bit, it's got to be frustrating.  Chances are that when you finally find the problem, it will turn out to be a $2.00 repair (after a $1000.00 worth of trouble shooting).  Hang in there, Buddy.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 10, 2009, 04:53:37 PM
Ace,

Very sorry to hear that you are having a problem.  I went back and read all your previous posts and found two things.  One is that your battery bay slide seems to be involved in this problem a long while back and that you had the problem right after sliding the tray....something about pizza.  Boy Howdy, would I ever be redoing all the joints and couplings in that area and looking for the harness that was being rubbed or bent by the movement of the drawer.  Volts on the charge system are not going to be enuf with something as strange as this.  Get on your AC scale and see what is riding on the lines as electronics will respond to that "noise" but dc devices won't and a meter on DC ignores any AC regardless.  Second:  Changing your filter changed you symptom in that afterwards you got a small amt of throttle response.  So very strange and maybe not related....but still.  Your symptom is that of low fuel, right?  What could give you low fuel besides a slightly restrictive/clogged filter?  A really weak pump comes to my mind.  Is there any place you can get air after the filter where it would act like a low prime and not purge the air?

POPCORN?????

Good luck with this Ace and I am sorry that I can't be of more help.  God knows I owe the board.

Is there anybody with your system that would simply disconnect their throttle sensor at the pedal and note the symptom?  Might be nice to put that one to bed once and for all.

\I would call LUKE for some long distance troubleshooting.  Failing that I would have a mobile mech visit and tell what the prob was and how to fix it or do it himself.  I know they are expensive but what choice?  A tow is out of the question.

John




Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: zubzub on January 10, 2009, 04:56:39 PM
Dude sorry things suck right now.  My 92 van went stupid last year and for the first time in my life I had to take one of my vehicles to a garage for diagnosis I was not pleased.  I had driven  the damn thing in default mode for 2 months doing problem solving with the sensors etc ...finally I gave up and payed the specialist garage.  Fortunatly it's been good since then but I am terrified of engine management systems in newer (post 1980 engines).  OTOH once you learn this system chances are you will be happy it's just the learning curve is steeeep.  BTW Zen And THe Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance speaks to the frustration of fixing stuff and helpfully suggests to only go at it till the frustration begins to build then taking a break, a walk, a beer or whatever other activity allows you forget about it.  Best of luck, it's not rocket science, rockets are easier to work on.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: bobofthenorth on January 10, 2009, 05:07:20 PM
I'm kinda busy the first part of next week but I could bring a case of Red Dog and some lawnchairs later in the week.  I don't know $#!% about DDEC systems but sometimes cold beer helps.  Mechanical things that aren't working can be really frustrating.  I have some experience in that regard.  Good luck - hang in there - it could be worse.  It could have happened at the gate to the fairgrounds and just think about all the free advice you would have had to deal with then.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: mikelutestanski on January 10, 2009, 05:10:48 PM
Hello   Changeup...new pitch.
     I have been looking at mandolins found one but whats the best way to evaluate one to start with .?    What is reasonable to pay.?

Just trying to ease your frustration with a changeup..    good luck 
    Regards and happy bussin   mike



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Lin on January 10, 2009, 05:20:14 PM
A friend of mine once commented as he observed weekend mechanics at work in a suburban neighborhood, "When your car is running, all is right with the world."  That goes double for buses and the reverse is 4 times as true.  Sometimes things are working so well, it seems that nothing can go wrong.  On the other hand, when you've had 2 problems in a row, it seems that nothing will ever go right, and that the machine is so complex that I had to be an absolute idiot to buy it.  Well, neither is totally true (except for maybe the idiot part in my case).  You will solve the problem.  It may be exotic or just a "duh", but soon you will be driving down the road, everything humming, and thinking all is right with the world and nothing can go wrong.

Re: Mandolins- If it was made by Stradivarius, it's probably okay.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: bubbaqgal on January 10, 2009, 05:22:52 PM
If someone EVER tries to tell me that the new electronic buses are good, they better stand clear for a really good bashing! I wouldn't give you a nickle for ten of them ever again! If I could find me a good ole mechanical set-up in a good bus and deal a trade I just might be up for it!


Ace, Superpickle told me I should put a match to mine and burn it but....... if your fuel tank is full (mine is) and you give me $500 cash I'll trade you my bus for yours.   ;D ;D


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 10, 2009, 07:03:08 PM
OK gonna give it a rest tonight and MAYBE go at it again tomorrow but then again, it will be Sunday won't it? Ah geez, nothing ever goes right!
Anyway, I went out to dinner tonight with another bus nut and well the topic over the table was you guessed it. How to start a fire and not get caught! Nah, just kidding but it was about this POC bus I own!
During our conversation over all the noise making kids that were around us we re-traced every thing I have done since our trip home. I mean everything down to each and every detail including the noises it made while running, what little running it has done! That lead me to yet another possible culprit. A solenoid that I had replaced about 2-3 years ago. It all started back when the trans wouldn't shift correctly. It was shifting irradic as in up, down, up, down during acceleration. When I took it in, the mechanic knew right away what would cause it to do this and he changed this solenoid. He said it was activated by air and also electronic. HMM, 2 things I have had problems with recently. Well one for sure! Anyway, the other night when I changed the fuel filters, and the bus started, idled, ran and accelerated, I thought all was good until the next morning! The problem continued!

Now on my recent trip home the bus had a low voltage problem and showed some irratic shifting just like it did before the solenoid replacement. I related this to be from the actual low voltage I was having but now it has me thinking that the problem I have now with it NOT accelerating could be this solenoid. The mechanic did tell me back then that this solenoid is activated by the throttle response and then tells the transmission when to shift according to your speed, or something similar to that. I'm thinking maybe, just maybe, the low voltage could have did damage to this solenoid because again the other night when it DID run, it would make a noise under acceleration like metal tapping that my friend Niles heard but to me it sounded more like air spitting. 5-6 spits and then go away all as the pedal was being depressed. It sounded as though it was coming from the top front section of the motor and if I remember correctly, that is where he changed this solenoid!

Now exactly sure what I am looking for or where or even what it looks like but maybe this could be something to look at when and IF I find it!

Oh and for all the trade offers? Thanks but Susan said I would have to go first!  ::)

BK, if this test doesn't help or pan out, I may give your guy a call!

RJ, thanks but I'm a Corona man

Cat, Uhh............. NO THANKS!

Mike, I have a really nice Kentucky mandolin (KM700) that some local pros would die for that you can have for a mere 750 bucks! Case included!  The BG fest is not in the cards at this time for obvious reasons!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: bubbaqgal on January 10, 2009, 07:11:40 PM
Ace, you just ain't no fun!    ;D


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: blue_goose on January 11, 2009, 04:44:47 AM
Ace,
It only takes a few wires to make it run.  To much for here, but if you give me a call I will be glad to try and help you get it going.  Unless you have a bad ecm we can make it run.
Jack


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 11, 2009, 05:41:11 AM
Ahhh it's Sunday! What a Great day it is! Foggy but the sun is trying to shine thru!

Do I want to mess with this POC?

I'll decide when I return from my walk! Gotta get my 3 miles in first to clear the mind!

Jack... thanks and although I may give you a call, I'm trying really hard to figure this out on my own. You guys that help won't be around when I'm on the road and I have to learn as much as I can while I can! Thank goodness it's doing what it's doing in the driveway! If I can't figure out where this solenoid is that was replaced, You may get a call! When is a good time to call? I hate to be a bother as I know how busy you guys stay!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: cody on January 11, 2009, 07:17:37 AM
Mandolins by stratavarios, nope, violins sure but not mandolins,  Ace get ahold of lou stiver, he'll fix you up with a good one, he's a good guy and an old friend, just google for his website.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 11, 2009, 07:51:41 AM
I don't need a good one! I already have a Gibson F5 that everyone that plays it says to never get rid of it! I know its a good one. It just needs a good player!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: blue_goose on January 11, 2009, 08:32:57 AM
Ace
All it takes to make the ecm work is the power harness must have Pins E, B, and D grounded .  Pins A and C must have 12 or 24 volts depending on your ecm.

The vehicle harness must have ground on pin A1 and ignition plus on pin B3.  If the ecm is good and you have fuel and air the engine will run.

Where this happened after you changed filters, I'll bet you don't have any fuel getting to the injectors.

You need to make sure that when you turn the switch on that the stop and check engine light come on and then go off.

Hope some of this helps

Jack



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 11, 2009, 09:47:59 AM
Jack what your telling me about all those pins makes very little sense although I do know where they are. I'm definitely not that good with  electronics and maybe that's another reason I should look for a different coach to own over this multi-wire, sensor sensitive, POC I own!

Jack, thinking about this solenoid that was changed to allow it to shift correctly, would you know what exactly it is and where it might be?

As for the CEL and the SEL? Yes I turn the key on and they both light up for about 5-8 seconds and they both go out. That is when I start to crank the bus. After hooking up the pro-link, I have NO codes, and no historic codes. All the other parameters that could be changed have to be done by someone OTHER than myself!

I haven't looked at it yet today. The day has gone so well so far and I didn't want to ruin the mood!  :-\

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: zubzub on January 11, 2009, 10:17:32 AM
Knowing how to run an engine in some kind of by pass mode is mandatory for piece of mind.  I heartily suggest you follow Jack's suggestion re the grounding of pins etc (providing you know that he knows what he's talking about).  Knowing that in a no start due to sensors etc you can by pass all and get down the road will make you feel good.  BTW I agree with you on electronics, it's why I have a '53 4104 and a '68 Volvo 220.  On the other hand I converted my Volvo's points system to electronic ignition, best thing I ever did to that car, hums at 100 MPH, pulls better through the whole range and starts on a dime.  The cool thing is I keep the old points dizzy etc in the back with the spare wheel, only weighs a couple of pounds and I know I'm always getting home. Giver.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Lin on January 11, 2009, 10:23:02 AM
Ace,

I know nothing about the electronics, but wonder still if it is a fuel delivery problem.  Is there anyway to bypass the fuel system and pump fuel directly?  Have you tried using starter fluid to see if it responds?

Cody,

Yes, Stradivarius was known for his violins, celli, etc, but he was a versatile luthier (I like that word) and made different instruments.  There are several guitars and mandolins still in existence.  Although his washtub bases were considered the best of his time, I can't find any documentation for those.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius

The bottom of the article lists the instruments.  I will not even mention his awesome jump shot.  


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: blue_goose on January 11, 2009, 10:48:48 AM
If all of the voltage is there it is going to be a fuel problem.  Check the filters and see if they are still full, if so give it a shot of eather and it may pick up.  If not full of fuel check your one way fuel valve.  The solenoid  won't keep it from running.
Jack


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Dallas on January 11, 2009, 10:57:13 AM
Ace,

To check fuel pressure, go get a mechanical oil pressure gauge (at least 80 psi) at your favorite auto store along with a bushing to transition from 1/4",(on the fuel filter housing) to 1/8", (on the gauge) and plug it in to one of the unused outlet holes on the secondary fuel filter.
at idle you should have 15-30 psi and over 1200 rpm you should have around 50-80 psi with a steady reading.
If it wavers or drops on acceleration, you may have a collapsing fuel line. If it wiggles a lot, look for a worn spot in a fuel line, or a loose/broken fitting.

Sorry I can't be of more help.. I know nothing of DDEC and plan on never learning...
As an aside, it's strange how Don can get the MUI 2 stroke DD"s to pass EPA, but with all the electronis, DD couldn't do the same.

Dallas


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 11, 2009, 12:27:36 PM
Ace, pull out R7. It's the fast idle relay and it ties into the TPS circuit.Start your bus and see what happens and let us know.
IF you still have same problem:You said you hava a ProLink. With the engine NOT running and the ignition switch turned ON :1. What are the TPS readings at idle - no pressure on accelerator pedal and 2.What is reading at full fuel - pedal held to floor?
3. They should also change gradually as pressure is increased slowly on accelerator pedal with no "dead" spots.
Let us know.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 11, 2009, 12:42:31 PM
Sammy did the TPS test and at idle position the reading was 27 and at mid way it was holding steady as my foot would allow and at full throttle it read 190. I have not pulled the high idle relay but will try that!
I found today because of yesterdays frustration that I left the main switches on and the batteries are too low to start the bus. They are charging right now and should be good to go by morning!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 11, 2009, 01:42:10 PM
Ace, idle reading is good. Book says 20-30.
Book says full fuel is supposed to be 200-230 but 190 should be fine.
Your problem is not at idle or full fuel, it's intermittent  - so now you can leave the TPS alone.
Make sure 12v side is charging fine too. Remember DDEC 2 is a 12 volt system. Those yellow and red power wires (Prevost) could get mixed up when disconnecting and connecting them at the batterys.Double check them if you disturbed them - connectors on ends or wires too.
Let us know.  8)


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 11, 2009, 02:06:42 PM
Finally, back to the battery box. :( :'( ::)  As if I knew squat. 8)  Really like that trouble-shooting philosophy of "eliminating various 'things' as the cause will eventually lead to a solution".  Except where you have multiple failures...then you need the pro.  Complementing you here Sammy.

Good luck, Ace

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: gus on January 11, 2009, 02:10:14 PM
Ace,

I know nothing about DDECs and don't want to. However; I do know that relays/solenoids and corrosion don't mix.

If you find the slightest bit of corrosion at any connection to a relay/solenoid be sure to clean both contacts very well. This is very important because some relays/solenoids are just strong enough to hold and if the voltage/current is reduced ever so slightly they won't hold, or always work in the first place.

Sometimes just unplugging and replugging will make it work again for a while.

I just had this experience recently, very frustrating but simple to fix. Voltages all checked out. Took me five days to figure it out.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: cody on January 11, 2009, 02:36:25 PM
Lin, you'll need to go further than a wiki listing if you insist on being accurate, Antonio was a master luthier and no mandelins or guitars are credited to him, he did have other instruments come out of his shop but his two sons and various other workers in his shop were credited with creating some fine instuments such as early forms of guitars, and what could have been described as mandolins but these instruments were the products of other artisans in his shop not him, but Antonio was a specialist that concentated on his cellos, and violas, and violins, the idea of him creating a washtub bass is laughable, what you have to realize is that he was the driving force that created some of the finest instruments that came out of that area but he didn't work alone, he was the master luthier in a shop that at times were reported to have as many as 75 people working on various projects at any one time, also the stratavaious name was assigned to almost any instrument that was imported from some of the european countries up to around the mid 1880's when the name couldn't be used anymore, for many years it was used to describe a style of construction and was misinterpreted to be from the stratavarious studios.  If you would like to find other information on his shop one of the foremost experts on his work is lou stiver, lou stiver studied his approach to instrument construction for many years and is concidered one of the leading experts, lou's specialty is mandolins but he is often asked to authenticate instruments accredited to the stratavarious studios.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Hartley on January 11, 2009, 04:59:12 PM
Ace,

I have a stupid idea.. It's so off the wall that I wouldn't normally have
thought of it especially if I was frustrated.

Take the batteries completely out of the bus. Ground all the wires to chassis
ground and let them sit for about an hour.

Go back to the engine area and install a new braided heavy duty grounding cable
from the engine block to the frame.

Get a fresh set of batteries from somewhere for test purposes and install them after charging them properly. Do NOT hook the charger to the batteries while they are connected to the bus systems.

A sad note is that 99% of the portable battery chargers put a.c. components riding on the charge voltage. 30 or 60 cycle and harmonics can raise hell with electronic engine systems.

Install new batteries and hook everything back up making sure that the Negative cable is the very last connection.

Hopefully this will reset the ddec system????

Try it and see if it will run.

I also heard a while back that some DDEC system equipped buses had a lift pump installed inside the fuel tanks that came on and provided basic flow until a certain pressure was available at the engine before the ecu would let the engine have more fuel during startup. I don't know if your setup has the lift pump and if it doesn't then there could be a flow problem and the engine ecu isn't seeing fuel pressure or flow enough to signal the ecu to get out of start mode and into run mode.

One of the DDEC guru's could probably research the "start" and "run" modes and what sensor tells the computer to switch modes.

It is my understanding that a computer controlled engine will not saturate with fuel on startup because the computer cuts down to minimal fuel mode to avoid loading up and smoking at start. After all the self checks are done it should switch to "RUN" mode.

Like I said.. Just a WAG.....


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 11, 2009, 07:52:39 PM
Dr. Dave,

Yours wasn't a WAG or a SWAG either one.  Just good solid advice.  Grounding has always been a serious issue in automotive in general and RV in particular.  IMHO and experience.  Bad connections in the ground and B+ both will "develop" any noise that is being generated.  There are supposed to be capacitors inside those ignition modules for cars but they fail and go unnoticed till the hapless guy replaces his alternator and then the car won't run or similar problems are unmasked.

I agree with all you said except "all new batteries".  I think you could go through the system as you suggested and "see" if the problem resolved and then that would spare you the bat purchase expense.  Then replace the bats, perhaps. 

You can test every one of those joints and the braided cable armed with a decent digital VOM, electrical theory you get out of High School Physics and just work on the areas that need it.  I recently looked at my gen dc start system just for GP.  I am getting 6 volts to the gen starter out of 12 and the feed line is 20 feet of 00 cable.  Work to do on the connections.

Enjoyed your post Dr.,  Thanks ,

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Ken on January 12, 2009, 02:07:42 AM
Ace, could there be a safety switch on the battery box. You did say that the engine started to cough and stumble when you slid the battery box out while the engine was running.  I'm wondering if Prevost has a safety device to shut the engine down should the battery box become insecure while the coach is in motion.  To stop the engine the DDEC cuts the fuel.

You have to "think" like the computer.

If there is try this. First rectify the reason the DDEC was trying to shut the engine down. In this case you have already done this by fully closing the battery box. Next cancel the signal to the computer to cut the fuel back. Simply switch the dash master control to off for a minute and then to on this resets/reboots the computer. Then to send a new signal to the computer give me fuel, press on the throttle as you crank the engine. Often you have to crank for several seconds [10-15] to get the engine running. This goes against what most of us were taught about starting fuel injected engines where you don't press on the throttle to start. On a computer controlled engine you sometimes have to press on the throttle to start.

The computer should normally allow the engine to start and idle. I have found hundreds of times if the DDEC has shut the engine down for whatever reason, usually due to a signal from a sensor this procedure will often bring them back.

Always carry extra coolant and oil, a DDEC will shut down if the sensors are uncovered and will not restart untill the problem is fixed. Nothing like being stranded on the side of the road when just a little oil or coolant would have you going again. Unlike a mechanical engine where you can unhook a faulty sensor [as long as you know the engine doesn't have a real problem] and the engine will run.

Good luck, I hope this helps, if not with this problem then down the road. Regards, Ken.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 12, 2009, 06:22:10 AM
Ken, re: the battery tray? This is not something that has happened since I have had it in my posession. This happened when we wentb to look at the bus pre purchase and I haven't forgotten it!
Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: garhawk on January 12, 2009, 07:01:49 AM
hi ace

know very little about the ecm and electronics associated with them.

one 'out of the box' thought.  is your engine breathing.  if catalytic converter is clogged, engine won't start, no matter fuel, air or, ... 

to check, hang a plastic bag over exhaust and give engine a crank.  if bag doesn't immediately blow horizontal, it's a breath problem.

best
gary t'berry


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 12, 2009, 09:50:52 AM
Ok you electronic guru's, here's something else to ponder over and give me your opinion.

This all started with a low voltage problem. I installed 4 new group 31 batteries and still no charging. I was told by Sammy to check the R3 relay and when I changed that, all charging was normal. Now my question is this. Could the ecm recognize TOO MUCH voltage and shut the idle down or work to where it won't overcharge?
I know I'm guessing but that's what happens when you try and figure out something on your own while it rains and spoils your plans!
Give me some input on this thought! I don't think the problem lies in the battery tray and not sure yet until I install a fuel pressure gauge on the 2ndary filter. From what I've learned, anything OVER 15 lbs shows a problem, maybe in the return line! Anything between 10-15 is ok and anything under 10 is obvious.
Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Busted Knuckle on January 12, 2009, 10:06:46 AM
Ace one other thought just came to mind. I know that since you know your coach that the "cause" is not your problem, but the cure may be the cure.
I once had a know it all driver, who always caused me grief because he "knew it all." Well once he was driving a DDEC controlled bus down the parkway and hit the eng. diagnostic switch instead of the defroster. And the bus immediately lost power and would not accelerate, nothing at all! SO at 4 AM in the morning I get this call from him frantically screaming "we gotta get a bus out here right away this one won't run at all"
Well I finally got him to calm down and listen to me. So I asked all the usual questions and finally got him to admit to hitting the diag. switch.
Well not really knowing what to do my self I told him to go back and cut the power to the bus off for 2 minutes, he insisted it wasn't going to do any good he'd already tried turning the key off and leaving it off at least that long, and he'd shut the pwr off and turned it back on and nothing had changed.
Well I insisted he "try it my way, just to humor me!" Well he did and I had to listen to him bitching the whole time! Then at the end of 2 minutes (truthfully 30 seconds probably would have done it), I told him to turn the power back on, and go back up front. Once he was back in the driver seat I told him "turn the key on, and watch the lights, and tell me what happens."
Well he watched and told me that the lights did just like they always do at start up. So I asked "so you have no warning lights or shut down lights on right now?" And he told me that was correct. I told him to start it and see what happened, and as he was telling me he did not "understand what difference turning the power off made" I heard the engine revving up and the passangers cheering. So I hung up on him! He called me right back and asked why I hung up on him, and I told him "because I didn't understand why having power on the phone was helping me sleep!"  ;D  BK  ;D

So what I am saying is try turning off all power then turn it on and see if it has reset itself! HTH :-\


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: luvrbus on January 12, 2009, 10:41:55 AM
Ace, I don't know much about relays and the Prevost system but on my H-41 on the way from Texas we had a charging problem and the guys in Ft Worth told us what relay to replace and we were told never use a suppressor diode type what that means I have no idea maybe some of the guys here can answer it      good luck


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Nick Badame Refrig/ACC on January 12, 2009, 10:55:29 AM
Hi Ace,

Juist a stab in the wind....


Prevost Car Inc.

Models: Prevost H3-41 Years: 1994-1998 
Prevost H3-45 Years: 1994-1998 

Number Involved: 1,784
Dates of Manufacture:May 1994 - June 1998
NHTSA Recall No.: 98V172
Vehicle Description:
Description of Defect:The alternator and battery cables were not properly installed. This condition can cause the nuts to loosen over a period of time, causing a short circuit and possible fire hazard.
Remedy: Dealers will inspect, remove, and re-install the alternator and battery cables.
Owner Notification: Owner notification began July 16, 1998. Owners who do not receive the free remedy within a reasonable time should contact Prevost at 1-418-883-3391
.

Good Luck
Nick-


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 12, 2009, 11:08:26 AM
Nick yes I'm aware of that recall. We got the notice but really think the problem lies a different place. We have checked all the cables and connections and all are fine but we do plan on having Prevost J-ville having a look over IF we can ever get it running and stay running!
Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: blue_goose on January 12, 2009, 11:31:44 AM
Ace
Read my post again, get volt meter and check those voltages and see if they are there.  If they are you must not be getting fuel.
Jack


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NJT 5573 on January 12, 2009, 11:33:30 AM
Ace,

How did you prime the system after you changed the filters? Prime pump? DDEC is damn near impossible to re-prime. The book is pretty specific and if your diagnostic lites are going out with no codes, this is what it says.

(1) miscalibrated Throttle Sensor
(2) plugged fuel filters (or lost prime)
(3) hose not connected to turbo boost sensor
(4) proper gapping of Timing Reference and Synchronous Reference Sensors
(5) diagnostic request ckt #451 is shorting to ground
(6) loose battery power ckt #  240 or # 241, ignition wire ckt # 439 or ground ckt # 150 wires
(7) check pulley pulse wheel, missing teeth, dented, or loose
(8) check for signs of insulation wear on injector harnesses
(9) check power contribution from each cylinder using cut out feature described in DDR instruction manual  

You can also check #9 with an infared temp gun by just reading each cylinder at the exhaust manifold. I have used my hand also. Cold ones don't pass.

I could not get my DDEC 2 to reprime because the sensor by the fuel filters would not allow the DDEC to open the throttle. I pulled that wire off and DDEC would then allow the injectors to open and pull the air through the system. Once the air was cleared I replaced the wire and I have not opened the fuel system since. That sensor is located at the top of the secondary filter and you need a screwdriver to remove the wire.

I am still confused about your run situation. Will the engine run for extended time but at 300 RPM, or does it run a little and then die?


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 12, 2009, 11:44:54 AM
Back home now and getting ready to install a fuel pressure gauge at the secondary filter to see if anything there leads me down a particular path.

As for changing the filters? I don't see why or how this has anything to do with the problem as the problem occurred before the changing! Changing the filters was my first step in trying to fix the problem.

Now before I install the pressure gauge, I am thinking about disconnecting  the batteries for a few minutes and give the ecm a hard boot so to speak! Turning the batteries off doesn't eliminate power to the ecm. It always has power as long as the batteries are hooked to it! I just know when my blackberry gave me problems, the tech people told me to remove the battery and wait a few minutes then re-install the battery and the problem usually fixed itself! Maybe this works the same way! Remember, I DID just install the 4 new batteries and maybe there was a reason a glitch occurred during that time!

Whatever it is, I am beginning to think that it isn't something very major. Probably something really stupid! The good thing is, I AM learning from all this!  ::)

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Tom Y on January 12, 2009, 01:37:22 PM
Ace, Are you also going to pull the fuses to the DDEC for a couple minutes? Are there 2 10 amp fuses? Good Luck  Tom Y


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Nick Badame Refrig/ACC on January 12, 2009, 02:23:27 PM
Back home now and getting ready to install a fuel pressure gauge at the secondary filter to see if anything there leads me down a particular path.

As for changing the filters? I don't see why or how this has anything to do with the problem as the problem occurred before the changing! Changing the filters was my first step in trying to fix the problem.

Now before I install the pressure gauge, I am thinking about disconnecting  the batteries for a few minutes and give the ecm a hard boot so to speak! Turning the batteries off doesn't eliminate power to the ecm. It always has power as long as the batteries are hooked to it! I just know when my blackberry gave me problems, the tech people told me to remove the battery and wait a few minutes then re-install the battery and the problem usually fixed itself! Maybe this works the same way! Remember, I DID just install the 4 new batteries and maybe there was a reason a glitch occurred during that time!

Whatever it is, I am beginning to think that it isn't something very major. Probably something really stupid! The good thing is, I AM learning from all this!  ::)

Ace

You never know...  My dad had a fuel line collaps in his 4104 and had the same symptoms as you. He ended up
replacing all the lines.

Good Luck
Nick-


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 12, 2009, 03:04:37 PM
Ace,

Glad to hear you eliminated the bat box as the problem.  Another cause eliminated.  Onward and upward.  The reason I went there in the first place was your experience when you were in the process of purchase.  But, also, you mentioned that the night before the problem you had pulled the tray out half way......and something about pizza.  Sounded like you might have gone Freudian and spoke your problem.

You aren't the only one learning.....be assured of that.

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 12, 2009, 03:35:14 PM
OK guys, here is where we stand (at the moment)!

Now were thinking it's ot a fuel problem at all and were leaning back towards it being electronic as in a cooked ECM! Why?

Let's look at the whole picture from the start!

Coming home from Arcadia....low voltage light comes on
Bus starts shifting irratic ... due to low voltage
Installed 4 NEW batteries..... not charging at all
Sammy request looking at R3 relay
Changed relay
BOTH 12v and 24v Dash gauges pegged
Checked regulator and found it to be maxed out on adjustment
Lowered the adjustment and although charging problem fixed the problem with idling and acceleration started
Changed fuel filters and seemed ok at the time but it was late
Next Day, and up until now same problem exist

Sooo, with all that, everything still leads toward the electronic side and after talking to a few more knowledgeable people today, we all think that since it started with a no charge situation, and then fixing a bad relay which in turn fixed the charging problem BUT the prior owner/s had already tried to fix the same non charging problem by turning UP the adjustment on the regulator to full max unbeknown to me.
Bottom line is, When I changed the field relay, then turned the key to start the bus, an abundant amount of voltage was fed to the ECM and possibly smoking something inside it to create the problems I now have although the ECM shows 13.4 volts as engine runs and 12.8 with it off, some damage may have been donw from the added surge of voltage.

Only other hopeful thought is IF there is any type of safety link or fuse or surge protector between the regulator and the ECM. Looks like another call to Prevost to find out unless of course someone here knows.  :D

Ahh the joys of owning an electronic bus!

Ace



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 12, 2009, 04:31:27 PM
The only thing between batterys and ECM is 2 circuit breakers in rear electrical box. They are both 12volt power to DDEC.They are CB19 and CB20, both are 20amp breakers.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NJT 5573 on January 12, 2009, 04:37:38 PM
There is a rebuilder in Mn. that will save you alot of $ if you need your box checked out and repaired. You can next day round trip.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 12, 2009, 04:39:37 PM
Sammy, let's say that even though those breakers are good and not tripped, it is still possible that voltage could have passed on to the ECM and smoked an internal part that would operate the throttle, yes, no?

We have determined that the TPS is good and working within the parameters both engine running and not running!

My next test will probably be to find a ddec 2 ecm for a 8v92 and use it as a donor by first removing the R3 field relay, hooking up the donor ecm just to see if I have throttle and idle! If end up having both, then that would tell me that something definitely smoked in mine. If not, then I'm back to square one!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 12, 2009, 04:40:15 PM
NJT do you have a contact name/number?

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NJT 5573 on January 12, 2009, 04:49:27 PM
Ace,

Its General Diesel and Electric in Hibbing Mn. (218)262-4553. They have been very good to me and their prices are better than competitive. If I didn't have the ability to next day them, I would have ripped my DDEC 2 out a few years ago. Detroit Diesel wanted $1700 for the Allison Selector pad when I spilled pop in it and Randy sent me one for $250 next day. They are the National Rebuilder for Detroit Diesel and stock every part made. They have been known to waive testing costs for the Bus Nut crowd but its still a great deal no matter what. Tell Randy Kwajdiver (Bill) and I sent you. I think he fixed Bill up although Bill never reposted.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 12, 2009, 05:07:56 PM
DDEC is usually pretty durable BUT as with any electronic component,anything is possible.
Remember the checks you did with the ProLink for the TPS, they were good.



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: edroelle on January 12, 2009, 05:27:44 PM
Ace, 

As I understood, your engine was not running when your voltage regulator was cranked to the max.  If this is correct, your ECM would not have seen over voltage.

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 12, 2009, 05:45:22 PM
Sammy yes the checks for the TPS are good but that doesn't mean something in the ecm didn't get smoked or does it?

Ed yes, I remembered plugging in the relay and going to the front of the bus to start it. When it started, I noticed the 2 gauges peaked  out or pretty close to it and immediately shut it down!

I tell you, I'm getting so confused with this stuff it isn't funny!

Over dinner tonight the subject came up (by me) about all the electronics that have been, and will be, a continuing nightmare not to mention costly, whether it's from my stupidity or just old age and it might be a good move to just part ways with this bus and IF we want another to look for an older more reliable one! Well, at least were both thinking on the same page now anyway and to make the decision to sell out might be a little easier now that I know she would agree!
Frankly speaking, I can see the writing on the wall, a little ways down the road!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Lin on January 12, 2009, 05:52:01 PM
Ace,

It seems to me that the problem with selling is price.  Aside from this being a generally weak bus market, you would not be selling a running coach and could be forced to look at unfair offers.  It would appear that you have to get it started anyway.  Once it is running, you will be able to evaluate selling it with a much cooler head.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Dreamscape on January 12, 2009, 05:53:43 PM
It's your choice, but if it were me I'd hang in there and find the problem. If you sell now with the market saturated with coaches you will loose out on your nice Prevost and a lot of cash.

Don't give up, hang in there and figure it out.

Just think of all the work you have done and you're thinking of giving it all up. :'(

Good Luck,

Paul


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NewbeeMC9 on January 12, 2009, 06:15:16 PM
I'm learning to Love my Bus Butt too, especially since it always following me :D ;D



Anyhoo, Never stop learning, and I have a nice reliable MC9 we can discuss how much cash you can give me with your trade ;) :D,  I'm finding that it is not only without electronics, it also without some electrics :o :D

We want to play in the bus this weekend and it is supposed to be cold and I don't want the dryer to freeze up.

Everything is relative, :-\

If this is this the worst problem you ever have then you'll continue having a great life :),   just think of all the people that are missing out on bus problems due to lack of a bus :)


Frustrating?, yes,    end of world? don't think so,  stay with it and you'll have that laff of how you fixed it eventually,  and thanks for sharing so we all learn ;D


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Van on January 12, 2009, 06:26:33 PM
Hang in there pal,It's all good.Remember when I broke my engine ,just got it home and I was ready to let it roll down the mountain into lake mead ::)(that would have been just plain wrong).Good luck Ace stick with it .Van


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: John316 on January 12, 2009, 07:59:30 PM
Ace,

Get a DL3!!! You will have to raise the roof, and upgrade some things, but it is a awesome bus. That is the first forty five footer, and the last non computerized coach (well not quite so computerized). I think that you would love it, like we love ours (okay, other than a little "leaning" problem right now ;D)

Sorry to hear about all of your troubles. I hope you get things going your way soon.

God bless,

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Busted Knuckle on January 12, 2009, 09:12:37 PM
Ace call Said (pronounced Sah-Ead) over in Orlando! I will bet $ he'll have you up & running in no time! Electronics diagnostics is his specialty! He ain't cheap, but DANG HE'S GOOD & he's honest!
I am confident he can end your frustrations quick and relatively cheap! (compared to swapping this & that, & that & this!) He will talk to you about what happened and go over everything he is doing while doing it, so not only will you get it fixed, but learn how he does it at the same time. His # is 407-851-8225. He is a computer whiz on these buses and the electronics on them. Tell him Bryce, Gene 'n' Donna, & Robert from TN with the Setra's and MCI's told ya to call! (he doesn't know we are down to 1 MCI yet! LOL!)
Also I have about 3 spare DDEC units for an 8V92. (which is yours I, II, or III ?)  FWIW HTH! ;D  BK  ;D


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: kyle4501 on January 13, 2009, 05:46:06 AM
I know where there is an old & reliable classic bus in central FL. It has never failed to start since I have owned it (never mind I have not ever tried to start it  ;) )

The grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence . . . .
The devil you know vs. the devil you don't . . . .

Seems a repower to a mechanical motor would be cheaper than starting over . . . .



But, what do I know, I'm not using mine . . . . yet. . . . ;D


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: belfert on January 13, 2009, 05:54:55 AM
Ace,

Get a DL3!!! You will have to raise the roof, and upgrade some things, but it is a awesome bus. That is the first forty five footer, and the last non computerized coach (well not quite so computerized). I think that you would love it, like we love ours (okay, other than a little "leaning" problem right now ;D)

You sure a DL3 isn't computerized?  Most DL3s had the Series 60 and a lot of them had the B500 tranny.  Those are both fully computerized.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 13, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
Kyle that offer is REAL tempting, believe me!

BK, talked to Said but not much help since he was in Baltimore and couldn't think. He said for me to call him back in 3 days and he might come out and have a look. Says he doesn't work on too many older coaches, just newer ones!
Oh well... That made me feel soo much better! :)

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sojourner on January 13, 2009, 07:26:14 AM
Ace...being you have a coach that is far better built with all Stain-Less Steel constructed, which is the Today state of art coach. The problem you're having is only temporary. Many of the bus nuts has problems with old non electronic ECM that either give up or patiently search out the trouble and it fix with new knowledge in their mind.
The bottom-line is don’t give up or you will regret later.

You have Said (thank to BK) and to call him later. That is a good sign! In the mean time, I would suggest if not already done so, is to install an 80+# pressure gage between last filter to cylinder head. This way it is there for Said to diagnoses more quickly with his ECM experiences. I am not a DDEC man, so I don’t know if it already can tell you the fuel pressure as it is.

And everyone including me wants to see your wonderful H-40 running so you and Susan can move on to journey the road.

BTW…who knows when but soon that all vehicles will be requiring meeting the “Green” standard. Meaning it will require to be updated with the recommend ECM unit. I am not for it in traveling through the open country but in large cities, it a must to control the smog.


BK, talked to Said but not much help since he was in Baltimore and couldn't think. He said for me to call him back in 3 days and he might come out and have a look. Says he doesn't work on too many older coaches, just newer ones!
Oh well... That made me feel soo much better! :)
Ace

Hang in there...ACE!

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: VanTare on January 13, 2009, 08:38:36 AM
ACE I spoke with the fellows in my shop and Stewart & Stevenson about your ordeal and all say you have a fuel pickup problem. You do not have much trouble with the DDEC only senors every so often or welding with out disconnecting the batteries is about it.I have a Volvo D-13 engine in my Prevost and it is a problem most of the time. hope this helps you in someway     


David


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 13, 2009, 07:51:48 PM
Ahh what a day it's been, mostly bad weather! Just enough to get you in a bad mood! Started out with a 3 mile walk and did some thinking (again) and was determined that this needed to be fixed!
Got home and decided that a fuel pressure gauge should be installed. The brass plug was not coming out so I thought I'll just buy a whole new filter housing and swap the lines. I ran to Tampa to the DD dealer and bought the filter housing. The rains came like buckets! Waited and waited and finally there was a break. With line wrenches in hand, I attempted to remove the first line. When I saw that it was twisting the tube rather than loosening, I stopped. What I didn't need was a broken or leaky fuel line to add to my troubles so I trace that line into darkness on top of the engine where I literally could not see. Only way to find out where it went was to loosen the ECM and move it to one side. After that was done, I could barely see where the line went and without removing the coolant, cross over pipe, hose's and a few other items, it too was not accessible! I stopped and just looked and looked and looked some more. What I was able to finally see was what use to be a pretty oil free motor that was COVERED in thick black dirty cruddy oil on the top and down the drivers side. Yes I knew I had a small leak, maybe from the blower but evidently it has become much worse.
I know this is a long shot but could the leak from either the blower or maybe the turbo allow the engine to NOT perform as it should. Is this a sign that the engine is sucking too much air? Would or could a leak such as this allow the engine to run while hot but not run when cooled down or vice versa? The reason I ask is that it ran so good on the way home and wasn't until after it sat in the drive way a day or so that it wouldn't run or runs REALLY low.
Like I said, it's just a long shot Wild A-- guess!

Thanks...
Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 13, 2009, 09:59:19 PM
Ace,

I think you should go ahead and repair the leaking fuel line.  That will give you an opportunity to think thru the "no run" problem.  You will have to do it anyway and it is a constructive use of your time...nothing wasted.

Frozen fittings(as in locked up):  A friend introduced me to "Cold Shot".  It is a can of nitrogen or something that is dangerously cold when shot out  of the can.  It causes metals to shrink a lot.  Carefully squirt the little stream on the male fitting alone and it might come out easily.  Use to little and the part won't shrink enuf.  Use to much and you freeze both parts and there is "no gain".  You want one pert to shrink away from the other and loosen the bond.  I tried this on gasoline fuel fittings and it really worked, and surprisingly well, and quickly.

While there was fuel pressure the fitting leaked, as I understand you.  After sitting, the same leak might ingest air and block you fuel.  And that would be after your filters....the place where you correct for a lost prime.  Anyway, you have to fix it before you move on in the troubleshooting.

If we are playing clue and it is my turn, I would say you have two problems that are not directly related.....fuel and electrics.

Hope this works out quickly for you,

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Lin on January 13, 2009, 10:05:03 PM
Is the oil you are talking about motor oil or caked diesel?  If it was leaking diesel when under pressure, it could be sucking air now.  If you are lucky, you may have your miracle discovery.  The great bonus is that it would have nothing to do with electronics.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 13, 2009, 10:16:25 PM
Oh boy... John YES you must have mis understood me because I don't ever recall stating I had a leaky fuel line so as of now, that is NOT the problem. IF i were to continue to TRY and remove the fitting on the fuel line that is attached to the fuel filter housing, then YES, it WILL break but as of now it has started to twist the tubin!, IT IS NOT broke YET, and NOT leaking YET!

Lin, from what I can tell, it looks like motor oil that has either leaked or blown out from somewhere for a little while now. I really don't think it's diesel fuel that is caked on the engine. I do think it's motor oil! I just can't see exactly where it would be coming from sice everything on the upper end and on the filter side (drivers side) is covered, yet everything on starter side (passenger side) is dry!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Chopper Scott on January 14, 2009, 05:39:34 AM
You can always drill out the frozen plug. If it is brass it will drill fairly easy. I have to remove bolts and plugs from aluminum housing on occasion and use the torch and heat the housing quickly and out she comes. You may also look at the fitting and find where it should swivel and apply some heat to get it to break free. Best of luck.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sojourner on January 14, 2009, 05:47:58 AM
Ace...I wish I could be there to help diagnose your H-40 “idle only” problem…nearly 500 mi to Lakeland. These are my kind of project that I love to pin point and learn the whys. All my life, I work on whatever till it fixed. Anyone who been with me knows.

I will be interested of what your fuel pressure is.

Can you or anyone knowledgeable of DDEC equips system, does it has an electric fuel pump in the fuel tank?

And if so…does it still has a fuel pump on engine?

Keep hanging there!

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: luvrbus on January 14, 2009, 06:27:58 AM
Ace, to answer your question about to much air the answer is no DDEC 2 strokes and the MUI  are the same engine very little difference between the 2 your oil leak is probably coming from the 1/4 inch oil tube for the blower which has rubber seals on each end.fwiw if you are not getting a lot of black smoke when it is running at 300 rpm the air is not the problem. good luck I know these things can be PITA it's sad that all the engine guys have left this board. have you checked the yahoo 2 strokes board for answers some of those guys are good


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: edroelle on January 14, 2009, 10:27:23 AM
Ace,

Here is another piece of information as a shotgun approach to your problem - this is just an idea.

When you talked about an oil leak, this came to mind.  I have heard of a loss of power  due to a clogged intercooler, caused by an oil leak.   Oil reduced the air flow at the intercooler, between the turbo to the engine.  Clean exhaust says this is not likely the problem, but I do not know how the ECM reacts for fuel if air to the engine is limited.

If it is possible, your job of diagnosing the problem would be easier if you could eliminate fuel, air, electrical, or exhaust as the problem.  The problem is not typical or someone would have identified it by now.  A systematic approach may help.  Others may  prioritize differently. 

Eliminate fuel as a problem
Eliminate air/exhaust



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: edroelle on January 14, 2009, 10:44:48 AM
Wrong key,  too early.   To continue my post -

A systematic approach may help.  Others may  prioritize and approach differently.   I invite others to brainstorm/contribute.   Here is a start.

Eliminate fuel as a problem
     Feed fuel pump (after primary filter) with $20 garden sprayer and $5 in brass fittings (this eliminates most fuel lines, weak fuel pump, air in lines, ...)

Eliminate air/exhaust system
      Is exhaust volume sufficient?
      What other easy checks?

Focus on Electrical
      Run additional temporary wires like ground wires to engine, Ecm, other
      Make sure batteries are 12.5 volts when cranking and running.

Hire a mechanic/electrician to come to your place, or lastly, tow to a Detroit Diesel dealer.

Ed Roelle







Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 14, 2009, 01:13:05 PM
Ace, it still is kind of hard to fathom how a charging issue became a "won't run" issue.
Gerald, the engine in Ace's coach uses a mechanically driven fuel pump - like a non-DDEC 2 stroke.The blower drives the fuel pump.

Ace, did you check the turbo? With engine shut off remove air intake hose and see if turbo spins free and there's no oil laying in there.
If blower shaft went bad engine won't run - usually.Blower shaft connects gear train to blower coupling, turning blower to force air into engine. This now allows blower to drive fuel pump.See if you have a mechanical tach drive on your blower - curbside, at rear of blower.
Should have a round knurled cap on it - if you have one. 6V92 with DDEC2 that I worked on a few weeks ago had one.IF you do have one, remove cap, crank engine and watch tach drive - it should turn while cranking. This will confirm blower shaft is good.
Ed's previous post is right on the money. Don't give up pack it in, etc.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 15, 2009, 03:49:00 PM
Ok Guys are you ready? Have you been waiting for this?





Drum roll................................













Nothing much to report other than we did do a little more diagnosing today. I installed a pressure gauge at the secondary fuel filter. At first attempt to start the engine, it tried but wouldn't. I tried again, and after a 3rd time, it started. Smoked a little bit but ran right on up to 600 rpm at idle but still no acceleration. While it was running at 600 rpm I checked the gauge and it was holding a steady 40 lbs. As I tried to accelerate, I had Susan look at the gauge and it dropped to 35 lbs but went right back to 40 lbs when I let off the pedal.

So this tells us a couple of things. One, the fuel pressure is where it needs to be. Two, the blower is fine, and three, the fuel pump is good since it runs with the blower.

So, looks like we might look deeper into the electronics. I know you guys can't hear it run as I can but to me, it sounds like the jakes are on. Has sort of a deep flat sound. Could it be possible that they could be activated and stuck somehow since they are electronic and this all started when I applied good voltage? Bu the way, the jakes have never worked to my knowledge since we bought the bus! Again, this is just another WA guess!

Thanks
Ace



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 15, 2009, 04:11:00 PM
Pull relay 56 in Front electrical compartment - jake brake .
See if it makes a difference.........


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Ace on January 15, 2009, 04:50:00 PM
Sammy I will do that but is it possible this is the problem? I don't exactly undersatnd jakes, so that's the reason for the question!
It sounds like it has back pressure or something holding the engine back from running. Sounds flat and dull. Could they be activated even at idle somehow?
Thanks again...

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: mikelutestanski on January 15, 2009, 04:59:07 PM
Hello
Maybe a stupid question but is there a switch on the dash to shut the jakes off   ...?   
    Regards and   you will conquer this thing..     Just think about how much you are learning about your bus....
     Mike
   


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: gus on January 15, 2009, 06:01:13 PM
With a clutch, full Jakes turned on will shut down the engine if the clutch is disengaged. Don't know how it works with an AT.

I don't see how you could even get the engine to run with Jakes on except if you have a selector switch which normally will select 2-4-6-8 cyl and you have 2 or 4 selected. If you have this switch and it is "Off" it might be faulty.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 15, 2009, 06:05:06 PM
Ace,

I read long ago that the throttle is disabled when the jake is on.  That discussion said that ANY throttle applied when the Jake was activated was a VERY bad thing so the throttle was disabled.  I don't remember whether it was 2 strokes or 4 but maybe both would be the same.  Looks like you are on to something.

Looks like Lin and I both were a little confused by the OIL or FUEL question.

If there is "no throttle response" then why would the fuel pressure drop from 40PSI to 35PSI when you depress the throttle?  Lower pressure means more fuel flow, right?  What am I missing?

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 15, 2009, 06:15:40 PM
Ok to make things just a little clearer, when I said no throttle response, it was meant be be understood that it's not a normal throttle but it would go from 300 rpm to about 600 rpm as I depressed the pedal. Then there are times when it would go even higher but mostly nothing above 600 and then there were times when it wouldn't do anything at all! Like I said, not a normal throttle.

Anyway with all that said, I checked the 56 relay in the fr junction box as Sammy suggested and looks like we are back to square one because that relay was already removed!

I'm telling you what, it definitely is holding the motor back somehow, someway via something!

It all started when I changed the faulty relay on R3 for the field relay! Acted like it wasn't getting the fuel, so I changed the filters as anyone would. Here is where are!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Lin on January 15, 2009, 06:18:29 PM
Have you tried to put the bad relay back in if that is the only thing that changed?


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 15, 2009, 06:24:11 PM
I pulled the good replacement relay out and tried it and nothing changed. The original bad relay,  I cut open to inspect the insides and found it to have a burnt spot near the contacts.

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 15, 2009, 06:24:19 PM
Lin,

Genius idea! :o ;D  Does the problem follow the part? ??? :) :) :)

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Dreamscape on January 15, 2009, 07:58:43 PM
Ace,

A burned spot near the contacts is normal in a relay. That just happens every time it's energized a small spark causes that. It's no big deal until the current isn't passed from one side to the other.

FWIW,

Paul


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Ace on January 16, 2009, 04:27:03 AM
That may true but changing the relay made everything work except acceleration!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: RickB on January 16, 2009, 05:24:43 AM
Ace,

I have a thought. Since you didn't reply to whether or not you had checked the turbo, I am assuming you didn't check it yet. Is the caked on oil/fuel residue near the turbo oil supply line?? If you had a major leak in that supply line it may explain all the oil and it may explain the inability to raise your DD above idle. If the turbo is seized from lack of oil, it will definitely rob air from the motor sending weird air/fuel mixture info to your electronics.
Just a thought my friend. I am praying for you, I know how you feel.

Rick


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: RickB on January 16, 2009, 05:33:28 AM
Ace, Went back through your posts and found this:

"Now on my recent trip home the bus had a low voltage problem and showed some irratic shifting just like it did before the solenoid replacement. I related this to be from the actual low voltage I was having but now it has me thinking that the problem I have now with it NOT accelerating could be this solenoid. The mechanic did tell me back then that this solenoid is activated by the throttle response and then tells the transmission when to shift according to your speed, or something similar to that."


I am not an expert by any stretch but if you have electronic throttle response sensors, sounds like you may have an ATEC 741 or another electronically controlled Allison rather than a non electronic 740.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NJT 5573 on January 16, 2009, 11:18:15 AM
Ace,

The 300, 600 rpm thing makes me think that its not primed. The reference to not sounding right could be air in the injectors or a "hung" injector.

That takes us back to running it a couple minutes and checking the temp of each exhaust port at the exhaust manifold for heat to be sure they are all fireing.

If the jake is on it will sound like a gun fireing and kill the engine.

How did you reprime the system after you changed the filters? Did you use a pump or what? The thing about it running fine for a bit after the filters were changed makes me think it lost its prime. How many times have you changed these filters since you owned the bus? Just putting full filters back on won't get it done. DDEC is very hard to reprime. Did you remove the sensor wire on the secondary filter to allow the DDEC to open the throttle in the presence of air?

How much fuel is in the tank?



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 16, 2009, 11:47:09 AM
Ace,

On page 2 Blue-Goose (jack) laid out the procedure for verification of the ECM module.  Great info for you and relates to the current pickle you are in.  Not clear that you did this.  I would check back with Jack on this BUT.... if you perform those steps and it runs that would mean one of those sensors was bad and your ECM and everything else was OK.  Then by grounding one sensor line at a time you could further isolate the problem.  If, on the other hand, you still have the same problem with it running I think the indication would be that the ECM is "bad" """O R """ the problem isn't related to the ECM or the sensors.  Fuel?  Air?

Jack wrote this for you early on in this thread and he is among the many that suspect a prime problem.  I think the suggestion that you disconnect a wire from the filter to allow DDEC to open the throttle might be the only way to clear a loss of prime after the filter according to NJT 5573.  I sure would try that first.  Easiest thing is to lift a wire.  Now if you already have done that well....is my face red ...or what?

Now Ace, if NJT 5573 is correct about there not being enuf fuel in the tank, :P don't admit to that Ace. :-X  Really, make something up...anything.  That is the kind of story that follows a man to his early grave. :(  Just a little humor to lighten your moment in the sun Buddy.  Hang in there.

John 


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Don4107 on January 16, 2009, 02:54:37 PM
"As I tried to accelerate, I had Susan look at the gauge and it dropped to 35 lbs but went right back to 40 lbs when I let off the pedal.

So this tells us a couple of things. One, the fuel pressure is where it needs to be."



Sounds like a fuel pressure problem to me.  Should not drop with throttle.  To eliminate supply as problem, hook up a 5 gallon can to the input of the filters. 

Have you followed suggestions on how to bleed the DDEC by removing the lead to the fuel sensor from NJT 5573?

"I could not get my DDEC 2 to reprime because the sensor by the fuel filters would not allow the DDEC to open the throttle. I pulled that wire off and DDEC would then allow the injectors to open and pull the air through the system. Once the air was cleared I replaced the wire and I have not opened the fuel system since. That sensor is located at the top of the secondary filter and you need a screwdriver to remove the wire."

Good luck
Don 4107


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: cody on January 16, 2009, 03:02:50 PM
Ace, could you have a line with a collapse inside it?


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 16, 2009, 03:34:32 PM
Oh man you guys are gonna laugh all night when I tell you what the problem is/was!

The bus is up and running. Just like normal! What a PIA this week has been!

I have to admit though you guys are great! The many many things to try and search for was a GREAT help and I personally thank you all even though every one of you were wrong! LOL

It wasn't fuel! The tank has just over 3/4 and it's a 230 gal tank so there was plenty of fuel. The filters were full and have been full. I installed a pressure gauge and it held a steady 40 lbs.

The Blower was good as was the fuel pump! The turbo has a small leak at the base but that can be fixed.

The oil accumulation on the top of the motor is mostly from a hose that is OFF that should be ON the valve cover breather. THAT will be fixed too.

After Pete Pappas directed me to my DDEC diagnostic book (on the phone) where I could follow him while he looked at his, he told me what to do. When I told him that the exhaust pipes were not quite right as one was hot from idling and one was cold, he knew right away what it could be. I was instructed to go out with volt meter in hand and check voltages!

As it is, and from what I have learned, the engine is controlled by the ecm which of course is electronic. I checked the voltage on the harness that feeds current to the ecm. This is the center connector of the 3 on top. They are numbered in the book as "a b c d e f". a and b feed voltage to one side of the engines injectors and e and f feed voltage to the other side. Well after checking the connector, a and b had 13.2 volts. e and f had 0. Went to the batteries and there is where the ecm is hard wired for power via TWO 15 amp blade fues that probably cost what, 15 cents. Pete had me look at them and they LOOKED fine BUT when I checked the voltage as they were plugged in, one showed 13.2 across both top terminals (which I didn't know you could check them there) and one showed 0. I changed this .15 POS that LOOKED good and hooked all connectors back up and well, you guessed it! EVERYTHING is FINE! In fact, it startled me when it started so abruptly. It was taking longer and longer to start as the week went  but when I barely turned the key, it fired right up. It went straight to 600 rpm and accelerated like it should. I put it on high idle and it went to 1000 rpm and ran for about 20 minutes. NO PROBLEM!

I thank each and every one of you for all the helpful tips hints and suggestions. I especially want to thank Sammy for directing me to the R3 relay which is what kind of sort of started this whole mess but without that relay being replaced, I would still be having a charging problem.
I want to especially thank Pete Pappas who in my mind might not know it all and never has come across as being that way but I can tell you that if you have a problem, he WILL go WAY out of his way, far and beyond, to the max, to find a solution to fix it! He made phone calls and read books and called me I can't tell you how many times, to further discuss what we would do and try next! If you don't know Pete, and he's not your friend, you really need to know him and become one of his! What a guy! I can't say enough good things about him although we HAVE butted heads in the past, but who hasn't! LOL

The bus is running fine and now it goes IN the shop where it belongs to fix what needed to be fixed a long time past!

Oh I better thank John Silver of Central Florida Transit who sent his mechanics to my house to try and get it going so I could get it in the shop. They were the ones that found the cold exhaust on one side after trying to read the pro-link which told them everything was ok! They were sort of stumped but it was Friday and it was 3:30 and they did want to get to the bank to cash their checks! Hell I understood completely!

Anyway, I will be taking the bus in John and his crew hopefully the first part of the week!

Thanks again....
Ace



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Nick Badame Refrig/ACC on January 16, 2009, 03:42:44 PM
Hi Ace,

Glad to hear the good news.....

Make sure you smash that fuse to smitherines! Show it who's boss... ;D

I hope you keep your bus now!

Nick-


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JackConrad on January 16, 2009, 03:46:08 PM
Ace,
    That is great news!!  At least it was a cheap fix (once you found the problem)  Jack


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NJT 5573 on January 16, 2009, 04:05:06 PM
"Ace" Happy,

Damn, we can't have that!


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Lin on January 16, 2009, 04:10:54 PM
You will now be able to remind yourself that it is fixed and go back to sleed when you wake up at night with post frustration syndrome.  I have often found those little glass fuses to fail invisibly.  So much so that I generally check them all with a meter when looking for a problem.  Certainly great news.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: RickB on January 16, 2009, 04:11:24 PM
Ace,

 Since you aren't going to buy it, could you call or email me with the info about the 8v92??

612-385-7397

rick@rickbarronmusic.com

Thanks


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 16, 2009, 04:34:49 PM
Ace,

Congrads.

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: RTS/Daytona on January 16, 2009, 05:22:58 PM
If you asked me how I feel right now --  after helping Ace get his Bus running again -->

this will help discribe my mood---> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080722.html   (click the picture to see the show)

Pete RTS/Daytona   - JUST PAYING FOWARD !


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Chopper Scott on January 16, 2009, 05:54:56 PM
Great news indeed Ace!!! But I have to admit a little bit of a let down for me. I'm gonna have to find something else to read. This was the first thread I hit everyday for a long time!!! Congrats on the fix. It always ends up being something easy to fix but finding it is the hard part.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sojourner on January 16, 2009, 07:14:53 PM
Ace....Great news! Congratulation to both of you Ace and Susan that the H-40 is running back to normal.

Special thanks to Pete RTS/Daytona for his time and effort to walk Ace through step by step.

And others on the board that earnestly trying to help the bus nut in trouble.

All in all, we can learn more about what to expect when ECM is not getting complete circuity in function.

I know I did because this cause me to ask and search via Goggle to learn more of what out there.

Thank you Sammy for answering my questions.

The moral of the story is to have a analog and a digital meters, fuel pressure gauge, ECM manual and fuses.

Thank you Ace for a full reports of your finding. You are helping me to say the least.

Happy busing to wherever you want to journey to.

Praise The Lord! :D

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: wvanative on January 16, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
Con grat's Ace, a very trying job well done. Now I know you had some bad thoughts about your bus during this time of difficulty, so now you need to let her know you still love her. You know how it is with women be they a wife or a bus, they all need love.

WVaNative


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: muddog16 on January 17, 2009, 02:30:18 AM
I have a question!  But first congrats Ace, I know for sure at times it really gets frustrating!   My question is..........why did the fuse blow, is this something that happens evidently not to frequently?  Was it caused by a short in the wiring?  Was it caused by a over current by something breaking down? Or did the over voltage cause it (over voltage usually drops the current if I remember correctly)?  While replacing the relay did you short the circuit wiring?    I'm curious I'm glad its fixed but will it happen again?   :-\


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NewbeeMC9 on January 17, 2009, 04:49:49 AM
Does this mean you don't want trade now?  I was even gonna take that wire back off since you want need it in Florida:D. 

Congrat's Ace and you could have your own lifetime channel movie from this ;) :D



Another tool to add to Sojourners list is a heat gun and check temps.   

Interesting, thanks for the lesson


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: bobofthenorth on January 17, 2009, 06:21:28 AM
Congrat's Ace and you could have your own lifetime channel movie from this ;) :D

If it was me I'd be really nice to Susan from now on.  It sounds like payback for the WallyMart plastic tub incident.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: zubzub on January 17, 2009, 10:40:25 AM
See!!  ;) I knew it would be something simple, I just didn't know what it was. ???
Congrats for not kicking anything too hard ( I broke a bone in my foot once when I was good and frustrated). (oh yeah, and in my hand before that, that's why I changed to kicking). Now I just scream into pillows.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JohnEd on January 17, 2009, 01:42:49 PM
Ace and Blue_Goose,

Blue Goose seemed to have had you test the input power to the ECM.  That should have identified this problem on page two instead of page 8.  As I read his post he called out two different pins for the 12 volt input power than Pappas had you check.  Why the discrepancy in pin numbers or was it not read properly.  I would wonder that others haven't had this question.

At the conclusion of each troubleshooting experience I had my men go back over every test they made and what conclusion they had drawn from each.  Sort of a debrief among themselves.  They ALL profited from this and in a short while they were drawing precious few wrong conclusions and getting gear up and recovered quickly and often without a single needles test.  I would suggest doing that here.  A lot of people were suggesting fuel problems and no test was ever made that would put that one to bed.  Wrong conclusions ALWAYS delay results....at least positive ones.  How could we have tested the fuel theory conclusively?  We should have been able to test the inputs to the ECM to eliminate those as the problem.....even 12 volt inputs.  I think we could have even tested the outputs of the ECM but I think that was our weak point.  This is a really great opportunity to make this a learning experience for all.  How could we have gotten there sooner and with less false steps?  I think Ed Rolle set us up to march down the path of "eliminate probable causes decisively, one at a time".   Lots of really solid advice was given.  I think Ed gave us the process and Blue came the closest but Pappas gets the star.  Maybe that is because we ignored the first two.  Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it, sort of thing.

What do you say, Ace?  Can we make this a point in history that we never have to repeat?  You certainly have the support to do this considering that 8 pages worth of people have fallen out on your behalf.  You must be one heck of a Banjo Plucker to have this many concerned friends.

Now for the finale: WHAT BLEW THE FUSE?  Carrying spare fuses is not the answer.  If the cause isn't eliminated you have no guarantee that a fuse will recover you in subsequent failures.  Sometimes you can't reach a conclusive fault ID.  Most times you can.  Considering the fuses are in the bat tray that was suspect early on, I wonder that a harness hasn't been impinged or chaffed.  That the fuse separated in any place other than the visible section would seem to indicate that the fuse was defective in some way but not necessarily that it blew at less than its rated current.

This was a long drawn out event that even led to threats of "selling this POC".  May we never repeat it but if we do I hope all will receive the support that you did.

John

Where did Pappas get the drawings/schematics he used?  How can those be made available to all?  Were they different than those used by Blue?  It seems that Pappas left the path of the troubleshooting guide with an epiphany moment after hearing about exhaust manifold temp differentials.  Then we had your Eureka moment.  You know what they say about the job not being done till the paperwork is complete. 


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 17, 2009, 02:21:31 PM
John, here's the schematic I was using from Prevost. All Prevost diagrams are VIN number specific.
This choice was made on Ace's VIN - N-1232.

http://prevostparts.volvo.com/technicalpublications/pdf/d060688p2e.pdf

The only other source of info I use is a DDEC 2 wiring diagram - from Detroit Diesel.
I never looked at mine based on info that was posted already - as you mentioned.
DDEC wiring from DD is very similar, if not the same for many applications. OEM wiring from different manufacturers will vary with connectors and of course any options.
Happy to hear Ace has his coach running again.

Hope this may help.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NJT 5573 on January 17, 2009, 02:28:34 PM
John,

If you want drawings and schematics, the basics are all available for everyone at "DDEC Motherload" that was posted for everyone to use as needed and reposted for Ace to look at. Its probably a few pages down now but it is available at this site. The DDEC info starts about half way down the first page and goes on forever.

We have to remember not everyone is able to do their own troubleshooting or even give us good information but once a mechanic was on the scene it was repaired quickly.

If you haven't experienced the joys of DDEC you are lucky. If you can stay on the mechanical side vrs. the computer side, you will never be sorry. The reality is it may go for months with out expensive needs or it may die anyday anywhere. The marvels of emissions!


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Hartley on January 17, 2009, 03:33:16 PM
Ace, Are you also going to pull the fuses to the DDEC for a couple minutes? Are there 2 10 amp fuses? Good Luck  Tom Y

I think that this may have been the best answer all along. FUSES !!! ::) ::)

Ace,
You almost let the bus gremlin get the best of you .. (again?)..

I always replace any fuses in circuits that are critical to stuff working.
I find lots of shorts that way. If it blows then something is wrong...

Sorry that it had to be in the last place you looked though...

A test light or LED with gator clips is a handy thing to have sometimes.

Glad you figured it out finally... Just look at all the things you found to fix now... ;D ;D

Dave..


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: ArtGill on January 17, 2009, 03:36:11 PM
I picked up a DDEC II service manual on Ebay and even came with notes and cheat sheets the technician that had owned it took in school.  I don't leave town without it.

Art


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: BJ on January 17, 2009, 04:09:05 PM
 ;)  did any one check the fuses in the bays, pass side?


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: RTS/Daytona on January 17, 2009, 04:20:44 PM
Sammy JOHNED  (sorry Sammy )

#1 - I prefer Pete - not Pappas  (actually it's Papas)

#2 - Blue Goose posted --> (...All it takes to make the ecm work is the power harness must have Pins E, B, and D grounded .  Pins A and C must have 12 or 24 volts
                                        depending on your ecm. The vehicle harness must have ground on pin A1 and ignition plus on pin B3....)
      A. - actually Blue Goose had it Close but not quite correct -->
           <> Pins A,B,E,F  need Power  (+12 volts)
           <> Pins C&D need ground
           <> Pin A1 is Engine Brake ??  and yes B3 is Ignition

#3 - I would GUESS that the reason the fuse went is because changing out the bad R3 relay PEGGED HIS METERS (I guessed about 18volts on the 12 volt side) when
       the bus was runnig -  he only had 15 amp fuses in the lines - my DDEC book calls for 20 amp - so he was MARGINIAL at best - raising the voltage to one and half
       times normal - also raises the current one and a half times (ohms law - the resistance stayed the same / the voltage went up / then so does the current )

#4 - I was using my DDEC-2 trouble shooting guide - available on the "tpub" site if you search using DDEC - you'll find the Army DDEC-II and DDEC-IV manuals - I paid 
       The small fee to get a clean copy - but ANYONE can look thru the FREE version on TPUB site - The downloaded file is to big to send via my email service

#5 - Putting the fuel pressure gauge on the secondary filter & seeing 40 psi at idle proved we didn't have a fuel problem - or bad qill shaft / spring pack - cause the fuel pump is at the end of blower drive

Pete RTS/Daytona


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 17, 2009, 05:28:25 PM
John to be very honest with you AND everyone else, electronics are not my bag if you know what I mean! They scare me to heck and back and I guess when the question came up about being a fuel problem, which to me at the time seemed easy to diagnose, I went for it! The bus is here with me and nobody else and in the past when either my own or a friends bus sounded the way mine did and ran the way mine did, it sounded and reacted as if it WAS a fuel problem. It was easy to see if I had a fuel problem or not by installing a pressure gauge. It took me a couple of days (with working, cold weather and darkness) to finally get it installed. Once done, it quickly told me to look elsewhere. Even though I may have had the help from people here to look at the electronics, I admit, I did not due to ME thinking it was related to fuel. Once it was established that the fuel was ok, I had no other choice bus as I said, electronics scare me. If you ever had the opportunity to see the inside of my H3 front or rear junction box, you would probably run too!

Now as far as the schematics are concerned? I bought a ddec 2 diagnostic book on ebay a while back when I was trying to find a shut down problem that was intermittent. It took thru various steps which was very helpful but it did NOT solve the mystery problem which turned out to be a loose screw (no not me) on the circuit breaker that is for the low coolant sensor. Had the screw eventually fallen out, it would have been an easy find but as it was, just loose, it was hard to find.
Getting back to the book on ddec's, when Pete called and asked me to go to page such and such, I told him I didn't have that page as it appeared we had the same information in front of us, just different books! He advised me to look for the wiring schematic specifically for the ecm control harness for an 8v92. He said it would be a page that un folds. When I found it, he walked me thru each wire, each connector and told me how to test each one physically ON the coach. When I did, I called him and told him my results. It was then he said there is two 20 amp fuses somewhere between the batteries and the ecm. It was then that I knew of two 15 amp fuses hard wired into one of the batteries. He said to look that them and see if they looked ok. I did, and they did look ok but he said to now check them with my volt meter. I did and one of them had no current from one side to the other and one did! I changed BOTH fuses and the problem was solved.
The 15 amp fuse that blew, and LOOKED ok because they normally blow at the top of the little hump connector. This one blew at the very bottom edge going to one of the legs. Even now it very hard to see it is broken.
Now you ask WHY did it blow to begin with? What we think happened is, when I installed the new relay which in turn made the voltage regulator work the way it was designed to work, it sent a high surge of voltage or a spike as some call it and the 15 amp fuse did what it was designed to do and that was to protect an expensive ecm! Oh and you might ask WHY did it get a high surge of voltage? Well only thing I can think of is that before we bought the bus, it must have had a charging problem of some sort because we have always doubted the charging system due to dim headlights and batteries always going down. The owners before us must have not diagnosed the problem and only figured they could get a higher charge rate if they adjusted the regulator to the max, which it was when I found that it pegged the gauges after the relay change. After I adjusted the regulator BACK to where it needed to be according to the book, it was then that I developed a flat sounding engine that would not accelerate or idle above 300-600 rpm.

The lesson I learned from this was a little more knowledge of how my DDEC works and what it controls such as, this large metal box with 5 connectors mean more to me than just that! I NOW know what all those wires do and where they go, again, thanks to Pete and him taking the time to explain it to me! The top outside connectors on my ECM control the injectors on the engine. One for the left bank and one for the right bank. The top center is the power plug that feeds the voltage TO the ecm for each bank of injectors and the bottom two large connectors are the connectors that connect to the many sensors, switches, and senders. At least this is MY understanding but to many electronic guru's it may mean something different!

I didn't even know that I could unplug one of the top connectors that feeds the injectors to see if it was firing on that bank! Why? All those wires and ecm are intimidating to someone like me that knows nothing about electronics but now with a little more knowledge, I have much better feeling!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sojourner on January 17, 2009, 08:52:05 PM
Aces …thank you for the update. I read every bit of it like I was there.

Very well explained.

Thank you.

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: pvcces on January 17, 2009, 10:22:00 PM
I'm glad to see that you stuck with it to the end, Ace.

Tom Caffrey


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 18, 2009, 05:39:25 AM
John, here's the schematic I was using from Prevost. All Prevost diagrams are VIN number specific.
This choice was made on Ace's VIN - N-1232.

[url]http://http://prevostparts.volvo.com/technicalpublications/pdf/d060688p2e.pdf[/url]

The only other source of info I use is a DDEC 2 wiring diagram - from Detroit Diesel.
I never looked at mine based on info that was posted already - as you mentioned.
DDEC wiring from DD is very similar, if not the same for many applications. OEM wiring from different manufacturers will vary with connectors and of course any options.
Happy to hear Ace has his coach running again.

Hope this may help.



Pete, I mean no disrespect as I type this but you have my post mixed up with JohnEd's. :)
I too believe the fuse could have blown after relay was replaced. Charging rate was set too high at that moment. I'm sure we'll all agree that this particular type of troubleshooting is unique,especially over the internet.We all have different opinions based on what we read and how we interpet it,that is what makes this board so very interesting and a fantastic source of info - all kinds of information.Happy to be a part of it. 8)


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: RTS/Daytona on January 18, 2009, 05:52:16 AM
Thanks SAMMY - Your VERY right - Thanks For pointing out my error - I'm very sorry

I corrected the post -

It should have said JOHNED  not you

Pete RTS/Daytona


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: muddog16 on January 18, 2009, 05:58:55 AM
Ace, this is called experience and there is only one way to acquire it, unfortunately. I'm sure you won't forget it, these types of topics however unfortunate for the person having the problem, help us all learn about buses and their problems!  Trouble shooting electric, electronic problems stump the best technicians don't feel bad or unqualified!   Over current devices are there to protect wiring, devices and ultimately protect you the owner!  I've seen people put larger and larger fuses to "fix" a problem, it might do so temporarily, but in the long run, you can cause more drastic results!  I like the overcurrent or spike possibilities as the root cause of the problem!  I'm glad you have a great friend like Pete to help find the problem! 


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Dreamscape on January 18, 2009, 07:24:04 AM
Ace,

Now that you were able to fix the annoying problem, go have fun until you find another! It's gonna happen, that's part of the life we have with these mechanical beasts. The best part is that YOU fixed it with help from Pete. We all learn from others problems.

Now go for a walk and enjoy life to the fullest! ;)

Paul


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Ace on January 18, 2009, 09:48:08 AM
Paul yea its always a good feeling when you fix a problem. The problem is we are taking the bus out this afternoon and that gives me an eery feeling not knowing if it will run or become a road block! Kind of waiting for the church traffic to slow down before we head out, just in case. I'm taking it down to be worked on. They said bring it on in first of the week but thought it would be easier today than in the morning with workers going to and from!
Got a list of things that need attention so maybe by this time next week, we'll feel more comfortable about running it!
Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 18, 2009, 10:09:10 AM
Ace, you'll be fine, don't even think about it. You made a positive repair. :)


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Ace on January 18, 2009, 10:57:08 AM
Thanks Sammy! Trying to keep busy until I have to pull out to keep my mind occupied!
Good thing Susan remembered that we had to empty out the fridge and freezer or we would have had another mess to deal with. I guess that's one of the downfalls to keeping it plugged in. You tend to use it whether you do or not!
Oh well, the clock is ticking and getting close.
Wish me luck!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: edroelle on January 18, 2009, 02:06:46 PM
Congratulations Ace on a success !  Thanks Pete, for perseverance.

As Sojourn suggested, what lessons did we learn?

1.  There is a lot of support in our group when in need (this is reinforced again!).
2.  Don't let the unknown (electrical or whatever) intimidate us.
3.  Utilize diagnostic tools like VOM (volt olm meters), gauges, etc.
4.  Read the books (GM is best, DD is very good, MCI is OK, Prevost-Oh well, Eagle-?)
5.  Don't give up

Ed R.


 


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: belfert on January 18, 2009, 02:12:12 PM
Now, can you tell me why my rear tail lights are shorted out?  Just kidding.  My tail lights will need a new topic if I can't figure it out in the spring.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Ace on January 18, 2009, 04:19:23 PM
Just got home from taking the bus. It ran flawlessly except I did notice that all my gauges are working better now. Maybe since they are getting the proper voltage, they are more accurate?
When I got there, I was instructed to pull right on in the shop and shut it down. Got out to lock everything up and to my surprise, some friends of ours were there looking at a bus that was sale. A Country Coach converted Prevost. Rebuilt 8v92 w/ddec 2 auto trans and straight! Needs interior updating only. They stole it for 25k and seem very happy!
7 of us jumped in and took it for a spin. I was jealous of the added 25 hp it was rated at because this bus took off from a dead start like a jack rabbit! What a smooth ride it was and very quiet! I rode in the back which is rare since I usually drive but I was VERY impressed!
I was teasing them about swapping ecm's while they are gone! Anyway the check was writtten and the deal is done and I'm proud for them!
Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: bobofthenorth on January 18, 2009, 04:27:04 PM
That was a nice looking unit.  I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it when we were up there Thursday but it was a good looking rig.  If something that nice is selling for $25k in this market then we can all reduce our insurance coverage levels.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: John316 on January 18, 2009, 04:29:34 PM
Bob,

Not me. I want to make sure I can get the same level rig, or better, if we have a wreck. Not to mention, I haven't seen to many converted DL3's with what we want in it...

JMHO

God bless,

John


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: white-eagle on January 18, 2009, 06:31:46 PM
ACE!!!!

i logged on for the first time in quite a few days and couldn't believe your post was still toward the top.  If you were were still having issues, i expected it to be posted on the for sale side, and meeting the rules about less than $150. ;-)

glad to see it was a SIMPLE fix.  i'm sure Susan is relieved that the bus is off your mind, and she is again the primary focus of your attention. 

Watch out for baskets/buckets, Susan!  He's got a lot of ketchin up to do.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sojourner on January 18, 2009, 09:49:10 PM
Congratulations Ace on a success !  Thanks Pete, for perseverance.

As Sojourn suggested, what lessons did we learn?

1.  There is a lot of support in our group when in need (this is reinforced again!).
2.  Don't let the unknown (electrical or whatever) intimidate us.
3.  Utilize diagnostic tools like VOM (volt ohm meters), gauges, etc.
4.  Read the books (GM is best, DD is very good, MCI is OK, Prevost-Oh well, Eagle-?)
5.  Don't give up

Ed R. 

Ed Roelle...you could have not have said it better! This should be in our mind whenever any doubt arises in regard of owning a bus.

And to say the least is praying for wisdom to come into our mind to solve the problem.

Sammy has said many posts earlier about checking the 2 fuses. The point I wants to mention is that just because it look OK doesn’t mean it OK.  In my pass experience working with many customers’ cars & trucks I have learned that in very few cases it can be a broken connection at the abnormal place within the fuse.

All in all we thanks Ace for his patience to keep trying his best to explain, troubleshoot as per replied suggestion and report each finding and until a senior bus nut came in via phone that helped a bus nut to find the culprit.

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald




Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Len Silva on January 19, 2009, 07:38:23 AM
While we are here, let me point out a few things about fuses in general.  You can often tell a lot from the appearance of a blown fuse.

A large blackened area usually means a quick short circuit or very high overload.

A clean but visible break in the fuse usually means overloaded by a smaller amount.

Quite often a fuse will fail without any visible damage.  That is usually just due to fatigue.  If you are trouble shooting electrical, don't assume a fuse is good by it's appearance.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Ace on January 19, 2009, 09:44:14 AM
Len,






No chit!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: JackConrad on January 19, 2009, 12:24:52 PM
Ace,
   Are you & Susan going to join us at YeeHaw?  We arrived yesterday and will hold a spot for ya'll if you are coming.  Jack


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Len Silva on January 19, 2009, 01:31:52 PM
Ace,

I didn't mean that about the fuses to rub it in  :)


I didn't even know that I could unplug one of the top connectors that feeds the injectors to see if it was firing on that bank! Why? All those wires and ecm are intimidating to someone like me that knows nothing about electronics but now with a little more knowledge, I have much better feeling!

Ace

On the other hand, you still must be careful working around ecm's and other electronics.  Often, you cannot just unplug a cable without causing some damage.  I don't know about ecm's in particular, but electronics in general sometimes are very specific about the order of doing things.  Plug in A, Power up B etc., etc..  It doesn't hurt to stay a little intimidated.


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NJT5047 on January 19, 2009, 06:48:26 PM
Ace, did you have a 'Check Engine Light' indicating a problem?  You got me wondering about the failure.   I would have thought that a blown fuse on half the injectors would have set a CEL?   

Thanks, JR


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Ace on January 19, 2009, 07:02:52 PM
JR there were no Cel or SEL and when I connected my pro-link it showed no historic or current codes.
Its in the shop now having a once over. Problem is they have a couple of 60 series there and they got me thinking hard about a transplant!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NJT5047 on January 19, 2009, 07:08:56 PM
Interesting.  The lack of codes sure complicates things?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ definitely describes an S60 repower.
You got a nice coach, probably worth the cost to repower.   You'll love S60 power.
JR



Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Sammy on January 20, 2009, 01:16:31 PM
Ace, save your $$$$$ ..
You have enjoyed it up until this past incident, don't let it get you down.
You have it back now, with little to no $$$ spent - a home run.
It even charges like it's supposed to.. :)

JR, gotta agree with you about the power of the 12.7 Series 60 - amazing.
Series 60 with a B500 in an H3-45 feels like you're driving a '69 SS Chevelle.. 8)
Wait til BK sees this post, LOL.
Regards to all.
Sammy


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: VanTare on January 20, 2009, 01:25:24 PM
Sammy drive a H-45 with the new Volvo D-13 it feels likes a Pinto the only thing I can pass is a J B Hunt chicken hauler ( if he is on level ground) 4.5 to 5.1 MPG also   

David


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Busted Knuckle on January 23, 2009, 08:25:04 AM
Well Ace glad to see it was something simple! I have been busy as a one legged man in a tater sack race lately & not been on the board much, so I was thrilled to see you found/fixed it!
And to tell you the truth, I owe you an apology! I thought I had mentioned checking those fuses to you. I really was so convinced that I had, that I was starting to type a post telling you that had you checked them when I told you too that this would have been over from the start!
Well while I was typing I went back and searched the thread so I could add the "quote " in there (since I know how much you love it when I do! LOL), but it wasn't there! Then I got so PO'd just knowing I had posted it and somehow it'd been removed, that I went back and started searching ALL of my past posts!
That's when I found out I had my threads mixed up and it was Rob who couldn't get his Prevost to run that I had told to check those fuses!

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=10296.msg105391#msg105391

Had I realized that I had not told you to check those I would have done so, saving you much trouble!
But then you would not have had so much fun finding and fixing it! ;D

Now about that complete engine I asked about in my pm to you and RickB has also been asking about? How about it if it's still available, I may be interested! I just happen to have a Setra here needing one!
;D  BK  ;D


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: Blacksheep on January 23, 2009, 08:50:11 PM
BK our bus is in the shop and the floor area behind it is becoming cluttered with parts that were removed! That was today and more to be removed Monday. It is way past due for what is being done and it should run like a champ when I get it back. At least that is what they tell me anyway!
The oil leak on top of the motor appears to be a leaking turbo line and the base gasket along with the breather hose was off the breather. All of that would make a mess for sure and it did!
I found out that I have lights in the engine bay that the previous owner/driver had tie wrapped the switch that activates them shut so they stayed off all the time! Likghts in the engine bay will be nice especially at night!
All the fuel lines will be replaced with new ones along with a new secondary fuel filter housing with all new fittings. Oh and I will have a primer set-up just in case I need it or anyone else needs it using a bug sprayer. That is way cool the way it works using an a/c fitting!

A new RR drive axle air bag will be here Monday as well and after being under the bus for the first time, that appears to be the ONLY air leak!
An oil changes and lube along with a brake check will final out my $$$$ bill!

Ace


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: NewbeeMC9 on January 24, 2009, 06:01:54 AM
Glad to see your up and running and moving forward on other maintenance items.


I apologize but i missed this one and find it interesting.

" Oh and I will have a primer set-up just in case I need it or anyone else needs it using a bug sprayer. That is way cool the way it works using an a/c fitting!"

Is there a thread with pictures etc?


Title: Re: Love my Bus but...
Post by: junkman42 on January 24, 2009, 02:46:38 PM
Ace, if you still have the breakers from bussin 09 could You shoot Me a  email or a phone number?  John