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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Airbag on March 10, 2009, 08:39:13 PM



Title: ding
Post by: Airbag on March 10, 2009, 08:39:13 PM
I have been living with this ding since I bought the bus and now that I have installed a gate on my property allowing me to get the bus back to the shop area I decided to fix it. I drilled the skins off and whoopa what a mess. The darn thing has been repaired before seeing the lower bow is spliced and the verticals are spliced. Funny the sections of the verticals they welded on corroded away to nothing. Probably did not bother to paint them. Having the shore bats right there did not help either. My plan is to fabricate new or repair pieces for the verticals and try and straighten the skins. I have a Pexto edge roller that might get the corrugations back in them if I machine some wheels. Unless anyone knows where to find new ones. The rivets where half powder with corrosion being aluminum. God I envy you guys with enough cabbage to own a bus built in this century.  :(  Anybody have a light bucket this one has seen better days.

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k249/skywords/corner/000_0208.jpg)

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k249/skywords/corner/000_0209.jpg)

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k249/skywords/corner/000_0210.jpg)

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k249/skywords/corner/000_0211.jpg)


Title: Re: ding
Post by: gus on March 10, 2009, 09:44:35 PM
Rick,

I'm assuming your panel is Al.

Since you are an airframe guy why don't you use Al square tubing in place of the steel and rivet instead of weld? I say this because there is the problem of Al attached to steel anyway so why not make it easier?

There is no way I know to weld steel tubing and rustproof the inside at the weld. Al to steel is a bad deal no matter how you do it.

I have an oldie because they have more class. Even if I could afford a new one I wouldn't want one. When they started making the monsters with so much glass they lost my interest. Of course I'm an old fart and the oldies bring back memories of my youthful bus traveling days.

If the roller doesn't work try making a mandrel to fit the grooves and work it gently over a nice big shot bag. I just finished reshaping a dinged panel on mine like that.





Title: Re: ding
Post by: Airbag on March 10, 2009, 09:49:10 PM
Rick,

I'm assuming your panel is Al.

Since you are an airframe guy why don't you use Al square tubing in place of the steel and rivet instead of weld? I say this because there is the problem of Al attached to steel anyway so why not make it easier?

There is no way I know to weld steel tubing and rustproof the inside at the weld. Al to steel is a bad deal no matter how you do it.

I have an oldie because they have more class. Even if I could afford a new one I wouldn't want one. When they started making the monsters with so much glass they lost my interest. Of course I'm an old fart and the oldies bring back memories of my youthful bus traveling days.

If the roller doesn't work try making a mandrel to fit the grooves and work it gently over a nice big shot bag. I just finished reshaping a dinged panel on mine like that.





Gus we think alike my plan was to rivet the new verticals in place. The panels are stainless and will be a bear to straighten but I am gunna give it a shot, I do have a planishing hammer that might help. It has to look better than what I had.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Singing Land Cruiser on March 11, 2009, 08:33:03 AM
Good Luck with your fix. I hate when a small job turns into a major project. We would love to see some before & after pics. All the Best, M&C


Title: Re: ding
Post by: NewbeeMC9 on March 11, 2009, 09:29:25 AM


From your picture your, I believe you have an MC8 and I think the original verticals and the and the upper and lower horizontals are stainless,

Somebody may have tried to do a repair using carbon steel.  May want to check to see if I'm misspoken :o


 you can also buy those skin pieces.  check MCI and maybe Mohawk


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Tom Y on March 11, 2009, 09:45:41 AM
I have a pair of lights from my 5C if intrested. Need cleaned up but solid.  Tom Y


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Airbag on March 11, 2009, 10:09:47 AM
I have a pair of lights from my 5C if intrested. Need cleaned up but solid.  Tom Y

Tom those are not the lights but thank you anyway. My bus is a 1965 MC-5A. I have been talking with Sam Caylor and he thinks he has everything I need including the new skins. I am awaiting his call back.



Title: Re: ding
Post by: blue_goose on March 11, 2009, 02:12:00 PM
I thought they said only Eagles rust away. 
Jack


Title: Re: ding
Post by: gus on March 11, 2009, 05:47:28 PM
Rick,

Stainless is another thing altogether. That stuff is hard to work, good luck on that.

Every day I'm thankful that my 4104 is almost all Al although I live in fear of ever having to remove any panels.

I hate opening up stuff knowing full well that the more I open the worse it gets!! Out of sight out of mind.

Unfortunately we aren't making our annual trip through your area. I would love to come by and see your bus and your airframe operation. Buses and airplanes, it doesn't get any better!

Next year we will most likely take our usual route again.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Dreamscape on March 11, 2009, 07:11:39 PM
I thought they said only Eagles rust away. 
Jack

Gee Whiz Jack, I was gonna say the same thing, you beat me to it!  ;D ::)

So sorry to see rust on any bus, good luck and let us know how you fixed it!

~Paul~


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Charles in SC on March 11, 2009, 07:22:43 PM
Steel tubing can be made fairly rust proof after welding by drilling a small hole in the tube and after welding spray the inside with fogging oil, then plug the the hole with a rivet. Steel tube airframes were built this way sometimes although I think they used a type of linseed oil.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: gus on March 11, 2009, 07:52:20 PM
I believe steel tube airframes are filled with oil then rotated on rotisseries until fully coated, then the oil is drained and the hole plugged.

There is another type of oil used now but I don't know what it is. Rick will know.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Airbag on March 11, 2009, 08:40:50 PM
It's great having so much good feed back. I am buying the vertical pieces from Sam Caylor he said the later series MCI's used the same stuff. I am not sure what the material was originally/ probably stainless steel. It is a _/\_ and l_l shaped pieces. I was hoping he would get back to me today to confirm he had the skins but he got busy and will do it tomorrow. I hate have a gapping hole in my bus.

You Eagle owners don't have a patent on rust. I would love to peel open the front of my bus and clean and treat the rusted tubing. But hey where do we stop. I want to get the bus back together for the bus gathering here in AZ on the 20th. I will keep you posted on my progress. Thanks for all the encouragement. 

I believe the lastest rust treatment for tubing is LPS 3.   


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Barn Owl on March 11, 2009, 09:01:35 PM
Even GM put enough steel in their buses to keep us from beating up on the Eagle owners to much.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Len Silva on March 12, 2009, 08:38:27 AM
Rick,

Stainless is another thing altogether. That stuff is hard to work, good luck on that.

Every day I'm thankful that my 4104 is almost all Al although I live in fear of ever having to remove any panels.

I hate opening up stuff knowing full well that the more I open the worse it gets!! Out of sight out of mind.

Unfortunately we aren't making our annual trip through your area. I would love to come by and see your bus and your airframe operation. Buses and airplanes, it doesn't get any better!

Next year we will most likely take our usual route again.

It's no worse than owning an old house.  Try to replace just one faucet, there's no telling how far back you have to go to find pipe that is solid enough to work with.  Every $10.00 project I start costs a couple of hundred!


Title: Re: ding
Post by: gus on March 12, 2009, 03:20:00 PM
Barn Owl,

The steel GMCs started with the 4106, earlier 4000 series were almost all Al except for the running gear, engine cradle and suspension.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: buswarrior on March 13, 2009, 10:52:49 AM
IBP in Florida has retro panels.

International Bus Parts.

happy coaching!
buswarrior


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Airbag on March 13, 2009, 03:07:32 PM
IBP in Florida has retro panels.

International Bus Parts.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

I got a call from Sam today and he has no bananas so I think I will straighten what I have or fabricate new ones with the corrugations. I think the IBP ones are plastic right? I will stick with the stainless even if I have to fabricate from scratch.

Sam did have some L/H turn signal castings. I have noticed someone has installed a R/H on the left side because the drain hole is at the top. I guess they wanted to see if it would still work being full of water.  ;D I will install it on the right. I bought a seat from an MC-9 to replace the lazy boy I have for a drivers seat now. Thanks for all the advise and encouragement. I will post a picture when I get it back together.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: buswarrior on March 14, 2009, 03:01:19 AM
IBP can match all the different fluting on the old style metal siding.

Give them a call.

Who has their 800 number?

happy coaching!
buswarrior


Title: Re: ding
Post by: JohnEd on March 14, 2009, 02:33:28 PM
Len,

This place was built in 1910 and moved here in 50.  I rebuilt a wall into a wall that was 4+inches out of plumb.  Ceiling had a delta height of 2.5 inches from the low center to "each side".  In the attack there is ceiling joists and load bearing walls and all seem to be the same height.  I quit trying to figure this place out.  It was built before plumb  bobs and carpenter squares.  One corner of the living room is up 3 inches from the rest, I swear, and it is set on a level concrete foundation.  I replaced all the double hung windows and not a single one was square but I did find two sides among all those in the house that were vert true.

Don't get me started on the electrical.

First liar doesn't stand a chance.

John


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Airbag on March 14, 2009, 05:10:40 PM
I got too thinking IBS wanted $800.00 per baggage door skin and that was no installation or fixing any sub structure I had to install them. Now that probably is a fair price but hey I'm a sheet metal man so I decided to fix the skins. They did not come out to bad. I planished the damaged area flat again using my pneumatic planishing hammer. Then I rolled the curve into it again and then used the Pexto edge roller to put the corrugations back in after making some wheels for it on my lathe. It's been a full day. Did I mention I fabricated the verticals also. I forgot to bring the 3/16" rivets home.

before

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k249/skywords/corner/000_0210.jpg)

after ( not bad for a hillbilly )

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k249/skywords/corner/000_0212.jpg)


Title: Re: ding
Post by: gus on March 14, 2009, 07:44:32 PM
Nice job, I don't know why you didn't do this in the first place??

Isn't it nice to have the proper tools?

Old buses like ours should have a bunch of "personality" dings anyway!

Who wants to be perfect?


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Airbag on March 14, 2009, 09:02:02 PM
Nice job, I don't know why you didn't do this in the first place??

Isn't it nice to have the proper tools?

Old buses like ours should have a bunch of "personality" dings anyway!

Who wants to be perfect?

Thanks Gus
It is nice to have the right tools, all my wealth is tied up in tools so I might as well use them. My bus has no shortage of personality dings. I think my next job will be the entrance door and wheel well. It has been clobbered there and the door sticks out 2" at the bottom when closed and latched. It looks like crap. I am starting to think my bus was used in a derby. Boy sure wish I had done a better pre buy. But don't we all say that? I should have known when I asked the PO if he had maintenance logs and he said no. I will just keep plodding away at it till it's half decent.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: JohnEd on March 15, 2009, 11:44:19 AM
Airbag,

Nice work.  I'm jealous.  You are adding new definition to jealous.

John


Title: Re: ding
Post by: mikelutestanski on March 15, 2009, 02:59:46 PM
Hello;  looks familiar.  The whole of those sections are new in my bus (1972 mci 7 from upstate NY  aka salt city).  I used  some steel tubing with SS weld. Been there 14 years now.. I painted everything when finished. 
    Still looks solid and during a recent repower everything checked out fine,

     An old millwright in the paper mill told me if you had to join carbon to stainless you can do it by using SS weld and it will last.  We used this technique in a hydrapulper to keep the cast replacement plates on the rotary mixer..  Big stuff you has to climb in the pulper and used a ladder to get to the bottom..  Working in there was like working in a sauna.  The whole machine was usually about 125 degrees.     Those were the good old days... right..   
    Just another idea and you have to weigh the merits vs your needs...

      Regards and happy bussin
     mike


Title: Re: ding
Post by: gus on March 15, 2009, 05:10:30 PM
Rick,

Mine also is banged up a bit around the door. Not surprising considering how many times that door must have been used and how many curbs it must have banged up against. It is also really vulnerable during tight turns in RV and state parks. I banged mine once on a travel trailer hitch in an RV park, couldn't see the hitch from the driver's seat.

I used pickup door weatherstrip to help close my door gap. It also seems to get out of adjustment about once a year also but I'm getting pretty good at adjusting it even though it is hell to get to.

Mike,

Good idea on SS welding rod. A guy did that once on a tiny carbon steel bracket on my airplane. It was such a small welding job that he didn't want to change the wire, don't blame him for that. I questioned him about using SS wire but he said it would work fine, he was right.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: Airbag on March 16, 2009, 08:36:14 AM
I have used a welding rod for SS to S before on a cold air induction system mod on a Pitts Special once. At first I thought this won't work, but I was amazed at how well it flowed and looked when finished. Just goes to show what we think we know impossible is sometimes proven otherwise.

I wanted to install the parts on the bus yesterday but instead had to change the radiator on the mini van. Boy I remember the days when changing a radiator was four bolts and two hoses. I had the driveway full of parts and ten hours later it was done. I bet the job at the dealer would be 1K.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: zubzub on March 16, 2009, 11:15:14 AM
I've been told you can also weld stainless with regular mig wire.  Now why anyone  would want to do that is beyond me.  Maybe in an emergency.


Title: Re: ding
Post by: JackConrad on March 16, 2009, 11:18:39 AM
I've been told you can also weld stainless with regular mig wire.  Now why anyone  would want to do that is beyond me.  Maybe in an emergency.
I was told the same thing, but they did say that weld would rust. I seem to recall being told that SS wire required a different mixture of sheilding gases? (maybe Tri-Gas) Jack


Title: Re: ding
Post by: luvrbus on March 16, 2009, 12:13:28 PM
Jack, most stainless welds on a bus can be done 1-2% mixture of argon and oxygen but sometimes you need the 90% helium with 7.5 argon and 2.5% carbon dioxide   good luck


Title: Re: ding & gases for welding
Post by: mikelutestanski on March 16, 2009, 05:03:57 PM
Hello:    check with airgas & fabricator.com (any gas supplier will do)   to see what gas works with what metals.  They Do give a shield gas for SS to Carbon steel.   Argon with 25 to 35 % He with 1 or 2 % co2.   
    You can find all sorts of tips on the web.
       One welder said he uses 75/25 gas  argon co2 but he limits his SS welding to 1 pass to hold down excess heat build up. 
     My solution for the rusting problem when welding with a mig is to make sure that you bury the carbon welds with SS weld but there again  the gas may be an issue..
    Anyway lots of info out there to get the job done.
    Regards and Happy bussin   mike