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Title: Goodyear Tires
Post by: paul102a3 on June 17, 2009, 04:31:28 PM
Hi All,

Does anyone have any experience with Goodyear 12R22.5 149 RSA tires. I had an outside drive tire blowout on Saturday and this tire was the only option available to me.

The blowout looks like it was from dry rot so I want to replace the other three drive tires and tags to be safe (steers are new so no worries there). While I would like to have all six tires match, the cost of $640 each seems high compared to other brands. If there is a good reason to stick with the Goodyears, I will but I would like some thoughts from the group on the ride and wear quality.

Thanks.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on June 17, 2009, 05:12:12 PM
The reason to stick with what you just bought is that you should have four identical tires on your drive axle.  If you do anything else, you will experience uneven tire wear and likely negate any savings.

Of course, you could also replace all four.

That said, $650 sounds really high.  Does that include FET?

You ought to be able to get decent 12R22.5 tires for ~350-~450 each, plus FET.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: belfert on June 17, 2009, 05:19:49 PM
With prices like that, you might be better off with the Goodyear as a spare and buying six $400 to $500 tires.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: paul102a3 on June 17, 2009, 06:22:06 PM
Sean, the actual cost would be $612 per tire installed, new stems, balanced, all taxes, disposal fees, etc. FWIW, the same shop quoted a higher price for both Michelins and Continentals.

It seems that very few shops stock the 12R22.5. On Saturday we called all over Orlando and the space coast and could only find one shop that had the size in stock. Most places said they could get a tire within one working day but that would have meant Monday or Tuesday. Most places said they no longer stock this size any longer due to lack of demand.

Unfortunately, I don't need another spare as I have one at the house. My bus has split AC units and one of the AC compressors is mounted in the spare tire compartment. Carrying a spare means I have to give up a lot of room in my forward bay which in hind sight would have been the right thing to do.

Anyone have interesting ways to carry a spare if the tire compartment is used for other purposes?

Thanks.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: WEC4104 on June 17, 2009, 06:36:54 PM
I recently visited a local truck tire place and inquired about tires for my drive axel, too.   The tires on the front are nearly new Goodyear G397s.  For the drive axel, I was hoping the tire store might have a set of four "gently used" tires in my 11R22.5 size.

They indicated that the only non-new tires they had in my size were the Goodyear 149s.  They called these "change outs"  since they are essentially new (less than 30 miles) and were taken off a new vehicle to put something else on.  I was quoted an all inclusive price of $1404, which included taxes, mounting, spin balancing, new valve stems, and disposal of my old tires.

I was getting ready to do this, but here's my concern.  I went to Goodyear's website and looked up the 149 RSA.   Goodyear specifies them for use on "steering or free rolling wheels".  This is different from what they call an "all-position" tire.  Since I'd be looking to put them on my drive axel, this has me a bit concerned.

I am sure that this is due in part to a non-aggressive tread pattern.  So this might be a bit of a problem in some campgrounds or rallys with parking in a field, especially if the conditions get wet.  Since I've owned it, my bus has never seen snow or ice.

So the question for Paul and me is:  "Should we be concerned by the steer or free rolling classification?"      


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Hartley on June 17, 2009, 06:55:28 PM
I put 8 brand new Goodyear G670RV 315-80R22.5 's on my bus because I didn't ever want to change tires again ( in my lifetime. ) They were expensive but have a 7 year warranty.. Lot's-O-Money

So far so good...

Dave...


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: TomC on June 18, 2009, 05:00:46 PM
With the low power of the 4104, the 149's should work on the drive axle.  Good Luck, TomC


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: gus on June 18, 2009, 05:11:51 PM
I don't know about 11R22.5s but I installed six Toyo 11R22.5s on my 4104 for less than $300 ea two years ago, bottom line.

$640 seems grossly high to me and I seriously doubt they are any better than Toyo.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: buswarrior on June 18, 2009, 05:31:28 PM
Let's remind ourselves that the clock is still ticking...

It's 2009,

102" wide came in 23 years ago, and 45 feet long commonly arrived some 16 years ago.

The commercial fleets out there are running 102/45 footers with bigger tires under them, with gross weights up at 50 000 lbs.

The 96" wide coaches are effectively gone, the MCI 102 A/B/C are deep into the second/third tiers or scrapped.

The bus industry's demand for 12R22.5 is/has dropped away.

We aren't going to be running what the charter outfit down the street are running.

Get familiar with what's commonly in use out there that you might like to run, BEFORE you are forced into it by the discovery of tire failure away from home.

like the Boy Scouts: Be Prepared!

happy coaching!
buswarrior





Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: luvrbus on June 18, 2009, 05:51:58 PM
Gus, you can get into serious cash buying the M11z 12 R 22.5 Toyo tires I buy mine Oregon with no sales tax and they are a lot more than 300 bucks and Lewis Bros don't charge me for mounting.This year I am changing over to the metric version 315/80R 22.5 Toyo's with 6 new 9 inch Alcoa's and you don't want to know what that is going to cost. FWIW BW the 12R 22.5 is still a popular tire out west for the log haulers I talked with Bob today and he had 17 in stock Toyo's and Hancock brands     good  luck


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: WEC4104 on June 18, 2009, 08:29:29 PM
With the low power of the 4104, the 149's should work on the drive axle.  Good Luck, TomC

TomC, any chance you can elaborate on this comment?   

As I ponder what could potentially make a tire suitable for free wheeling axles, but possibly not drive axels, I have a couple of thoughts.  First off, there is the question of whether the tread pattern is aggressive enough to achieve sufficient traction. The website photos of the 149 tread pattern look like a series of parallel grooves, with hardly any zig-zags or other surfaces that "bite".   The positive side to this is that I have to believe they are a very quiet rolling tire.

So is the reasoning here that the 4104 has such little power that it won't spin the wheels in slippery conditions?  Guess I'm having trouble with that thinking.

Or maybe it has something to do with the sidewall strength. Whatever torque is applied to the wheel has to eventually be transmitted (via the bead and sidewall) to the tread area so that road friction pushes the push forward.  Maybe tires designed for drive positions need to be able to handle this particular stress.  Sounds plausible, and perhaps the fact that the 4104 has lower torque than larger buses or tractors allows the tire to be used.  All this is complete speculation on my part.

Maybe I am over analyzing this, but a set of four of these puppies is gonna cost a good set of change. I sure as heck would hate to find out later that it was a bad choice.

Oh, and for the record, the tires I would be replacing are older Toyos.  They have been a great tire for me, and if I could get a set of these agian for a reasonable price, I would probably jump on it.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: TomCat on June 18, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
I put 8 brand new Goodyear G670RV 315-80R22.5 's on my bus because I didn't ever want to change tires again ( in my lifetime. ) They were expensive but have a 7 year warranty.. Lot's-O-Money

So far so good...

Dave...


^^^^  Me too Dave!

I called around to WingFoot Tires, and got them for $212 each, plus the add ons.

If you can spout a company name when calling WingFoot, the price goes WAAAYYYYY down!

HTH

Jay
87 SaftLiner


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: niles500 on June 18, 2009, 09:05:23 PM
Jay - if you know where to get Goodyear G670RV  315 8R22.5's for $212 - TELL US ALL - last year I saw the invoice from the distributor for my tires was $350 per tire - my understanding is the price has gone up since then - TIA


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: TomC on June 18, 2009, 10:23:25 PM
Just remember with any tire, whether it be on the steer, drive or even a trailer tire- getting enough grip on acceleration is not the issue (as said before, 6-71 is low power for a 35ft bus), it is stopping the bus.  ALL tires are rated to stop a vehicle, and stopping is several times (don't have the exact figure) more powerful then any acceleration produced by even the most powerful of buses.  I run very similar tires on my bus all the way around (Michelin XZE).  If you have ANY doubts in your mind that the 149 will work, call customer service line at Goodyear for the answer.  Good Luck, TomC


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Busted Knuckle on June 19, 2009, 11:37:09 AM
Quote from: TomCat

^^^^  Me too Dave!

I called around to WingFoot Tires, and got them for $212 each, plus the add ons.

If you can spout a company name when calling WingFoot, the price goes WAAAYYYYY down!

HTH

Jay
87 SaftLiner

Jay can you PM me where it was you can get 315/80R 22.5s for $212 each?
I wanna stock up! I'll pass along the savings to other busnuts as well!
Right now I am paying right at $400 each for Kumho KSR (???) 315/80R 22.5's! (a little less but after I spend fuel $ to go pick them up 5o miles each way that's pretty close to my cost!
;D  BK  ;D

PS; I can spout out several company names will that make them even cheaper?


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: WEC4104 on June 19, 2009, 12:00:02 PM
For those who might be interested, Goodyear's website is currently showing a rebate promotion on the G670RV tires.  The rebate amount varies by tire size. For the 315-80R22.5 size, you get the top rebate of $80 per tire (no limit). Offer runs until July 31st.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: TomCat on June 19, 2009, 01:07:38 PM
I'm sorry Bryce and Niles, that I didn't make clear that I bought my Goodyear 670's in June of 2005.

However, as usual I did a lot of research before buying my tires, and Wingfoot was better than $100 per tire cheaper than anyone else in the Denver/Springs area.

When I called Wingfoot, the guy asked who was calling. I said "Jay from Calhan", and I believe he thought I gave him a business name.
After we went through all the pricing and I set up the appointment to go in, he asked again what the business name was.
I said I didn't have a business, but my name was Jay and I was calling from Calhan, a small town 30ish miles east of Colorado Springs. LOL
He hemmed and hawed for a minute, then I guess he figured out how to cover his end and told me when to come in.

On the day/time of my appointment he was really cool to deal with, and Wingfoot is about as fine equipped a commercial truck tire shop as I've ever seen.
Spin balance is no problem and makes the ride so sweet! 85 feels like 35!

The guy who changed out the 6 tires on my bus didn't weigh more than 135 pounds, but could flip and spin a tire/wheel combo that outweighed him around like it was nothing...I reckon it wasn't his first rodeo.

Once it was time to settle up is when Wingfoot really started to shine. He gave me a packet with a history of each of my tires, once they left the factory, and any distributor they may have stopped at along the way to me. It also included a detailed inspection report of each tire, and the tires are also registered into the Wingfoot/Goodyear system, so any Goodyear dealer in the US will have warranty info available.

I don't recall all the tire perks that  came with doing biz there, but it was easy to tell Wingfoot has a lot of commercial accounts, and will do what it takes to keep them happy.

HTH

Good luck!

Jay
87 SaftLiner


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: WEC4104 on June 19, 2009, 03:32:38 PM
Okay, so I've been reading this thread and the multiple mentions of the G670 RV tire.  I must admit I've never given much thought about switching to a metric size.  But I just know that whatever I buy will succumb to age and UV sidewall cracking before I ever wear the dang things out. The possibility of a special tire compound to resist weather aging sure sounds good on paper.

Next comes the pricing discussion and TomCat's 2005 pricing reference.  Well even allowing for some "price growth" (thank you OPEC) these should still be in the ballpark, right?

Well I spent a little quality time with my web search engines figuring somebody has to have rough prices posted.

I came across this site with a big spreadsheet of tire models and sizes (dated march 2009) at...

http://www.sullivantire.com/GoodyearDunlop.pdf

I start looking for 11R22.5 prices for various models. I see a half a dozen models, including the G149, in the $380-$450 range.   Not surprising.

Then I scroll down to the 315-80R22.5 in the G670 RV at $757 each. I just about threw up on my shoes.  No wonder Goodyear can hand out the $80 rebates.   Admittedly these are load range L, which I think is all they make in that size, but good heavens, man.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: paul102a3 on June 19, 2009, 07:09:20 PM
After spending two days on the phone and internet, the best price I could find for 12R22.5 tires is the Toyo M111Z at $480 per tire which includes FET. Mounting, balancing, and new stems is $20.00 additional per tire.

I came across an interesting data sheet on the percentage of replacement tires organized by size. The data sheet was published in March of this year and the 12R22.5 accounted for only 1.2% of all tires sold.

One other thing I found confusing was the variation in the manufacturers stated tire diameters. In comparing the major brands, the variation ranged from 42.6 inches up to 43.0 inches for the 12R22.5. Toyo's M111Z is 42.6 inches and the Goodyear G149 RSA is 43.0 inches.

Does anyone know if the variation is real or is it due to how the manufacturer measures their tires?

If the the diameters are really that different wouldn't the Goodyear give a little bit better fuel economy?

I will check prices outside of my home area (Tampa, FL) and see if there are better deals. It would be a good excuse to go for a drive.
 
 


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: WEC4104 on June 19, 2009, 07:51:28 PM
The range is diameter difference 0.4 inches is real, but it usually has to do with differences in tread design and depth.  Keep in mind that this is only about a 1% difference in diameter, hardly a big factor in your mileage.  There could easily be that much difference in the rolling resistance from one tire model to another.  Other than making sure that all tires on the same axel have the same diameter, I wouldn't sweat the minor size difference between brands.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: luvrbus on June 19, 2009, 08:09:25 PM
Paul,  I know where you can get a better deal on the Toyo's M111z may be to far of a drive for you anyway it is Lewis Bros Tire in Baker City Or. No sales tax,and if your casing are recapable they will buy them from you.I have used the M111z for years and never had 1 fail the only problem with the tire if you run it low of pressure it will cup I did that on the last trip because of a faulty air gauge. FWIW the M111z is a Japan made tire        good luck


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on June 20, 2009, 10:43:27 AM
Comparing 12R22.5 tires to 315/80R22.5 tires is about like comparing 11R and 12R tires -- these are completely different tires, made for different applications.  Of course you can not expect prices to be comparable between them.  The 315/80 is not a metric equivalent to the 12R, as an earlier comment might lead one to believe -- it's a completely different animal.

FWIW, the only reasons you should be looking to change from the 12R to the 315/80R are
  • if you are already very close to the load and inflation limits for the 12R on one or more wheel positions
  • if you spend a lot of time off the pavement in very soft surfaces, and you need the extra footprint and lower inflation pressure that the larger tire will offer.

Note that the 315/80 is not guaranteed to simply fit your bus if it was made for 12R.  The 315 is a significantly wider casing, and it may rub on your tie rod ends, scrape your wheel wells during tight turns, or interfere with other suspension components.  Also, the 315 is made for a 9" rim (although some manufacturers will approve their 315's for an 8.25" rim), whereas the 12R will fit either 8.25" or 9" rims.  Most older coaches made for 12R tires are equipped with 8.25" rims.

Since the 315 is a much beefier tire, made for very heavy applications, you will find the vast majority of these tires are speed-rated to 55mph or sometimes 60 or 65mph.  This is because the centrifugal forces on the very heavy belts become enormous at higher rotational speeds.  The very few tires in this size with 75mp speed ratings thus have extra reinforcement, adding significantly to the cost.  I think you will find that 75mph-rated tires in 315/80R22.5 are all similarly expensive, and there are precious few of them.

Also note that the Federal Excise Tax (FET), which is assessed on every new tire sold, will be a good deal higher for the 315 as well.  FET is based strictly on the tire's maximum load rating, in pounds.  The rate is nearly ten cents per every ten pounds ($.0945, to be exact), and since the 315 typically has a load limit 2,000 pounds greater than a comparable 12R, you are looking at an additional $19 per tire just in FET, over and above the extra cost of the tire.

Lastly, the 315 is a great deal harder to find than the 12R, which is a much more common tire, contrary to what has been suggested earlier.  I used to run a mix of the two on my bus (I have since switched back to 12R all the way around -- the extra soft-surface performance was not worth the extra expense and hassle of the 315s), and I've never had trouble finding a 12R when I needed it anywhere in the country, whereas few road service establishments stock 315s.

YMMV, of course.

HTH,

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2009, 10:51:22 AM
Sorry Sean I should have said the metric version of Toyo tires no where did I say the" metric equivalent" ,and I do know the difference in the 2 tires but thanks for the lesson anyway.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on June 20, 2009, 11:22:31 AM
You said "metric version" which might have led an inexperienced reader to believe the tires were interchangeable -- they are not.  (Subsequent posts by others here suggested to me that confusion existed on this matter.)

The "lesson" was not intended for you -- it was intended for less experienced folks who might justifiably be confused by the bewildering array of choices in the tire market, and the often conflicting (and sometimes incorrect or downright dangerous) advice dispensed by tire dealers.

Please do not take everything written so personally -- it's not always about you.  Literally hundreds of people read these threads, sometimes years later.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Busted Knuckle on June 20, 2009, 02:57:42 PM
Sean and Luvrbus,
Now I am really confused! Literally! All the tire dealers around here swear that the 315 is the metric version of the 12R. (even the distribution warehouse I've been buying them from directly!)

Just last week I had a customer call me and ask me to get some 12R's for his bus. So I called my distributor asked him to give me a price on them. He told me "I can get them, but we're looking at 7-10 working days. And they are the same as the 315's you have been buying! It's just that they are the metric version of the 12R, and one is 42.2 inches and the other is 42.6 inches tall! 

Now Sean & Clifford I know that ya'll usually know what your talking about and most of the time have yrs of hands on experience or have done extensive research on it to back up what ya say!
SO here's what confuses me why would the distributor (and all the local dealers too) come off with a line of BS like that when the 12R's are still available and actually about $40 per tire cheaper?

By the way Sean around here a 12R really is a dinosaur as almost all our local dealers either have or can get a 315 daily but it takes a week to 2 weeks to get the 12R's.
Also the distributor says the excise tax on them is $40 per tire! (which is what I get charged on my invoices.)
I am not disputing or doubting your personal experiences. Just letting you in on our local scene!
Just trying to learn something here!  ???  BK   ???


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Hartley on June 20, 2009, 07:44:21 PM
I bought my 315-80R22.5 's in 2005 ( Goodyear G670RV ) and they were $701 each installed. That is a lot of money yes!

My (NJT) MC9 came with 315-80R22.5 tires on 9 Inch rims. The max run load is over 9,000 lbs @130 psi .

The tire diameter is almost the same rotations as the 12R22.5 that I was using on other buses so there was no advantage there. The advantage is in two main areas. One being a wider footprint (helps flotation & traction) and the load capacity which means a tougher tire to damage.

The long lifetime and UV stability also helped. I have seen so many tires that looked like new with little wear fail due to dry rot and age. It is NO FUN having a tire give out on these things.

The thing about these large tires is that you have to get them hot and turning so that the rubber and compounds will stay alive. Most RV's and Bus conversions sit much more than they go down the road so while you are sleeping your tires are busy degrading from lack of use.

You can pay less and probably will. I didn't want to worry about the rubber things while I sleep. I know my tires will get me there when I need them.

Dave...


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: belfert on June 20, 2009, 07:48:59 PM
Are the Goodyear G670RV tires really going to last twice as long as a normal truck tire?  I could almost buy two sets of pretty decent tires for what the G670RV tires cost.

No tire is likely to last my lifetime since I'm not even 40 yet.  I'm not looking forward to tire replacement in probably three more years.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on June 20, 2009, 10:05:57 PM
... All the tire dealers around here swear that the 315 is the metric version of the 12R. (even the distribution warehouse I've been buying them from directly!)
... they are the same as the 315's you have been buying! It's just that they are the metric version of the 12R,


Bryce, the 315 is different from the 12R both dimensionally (the 315 has a wider tread and casing, and requires a wider rim) and structurally -- typical 12R22.5 tires have about a 7,000 lb (single) load capacity, and typical 315/80R22.5 have 9,000-10,000 lb (single) load capacity.  315s will also not fit everyplace a 12R will, as I wrote above (I can't use them on my tag, as they would rub the tie rods, and on my steers they scraped the wheel wells).

The best way to see the difference in black and white is to find a tire model that is made in both sizes, and compare specs.  That's hard to do, because many manufacturers use special model designations for their 315 tires.  The Continental HDR is one tire that comes in both sizes, and I invite you to compare the 12R and 315 specs for that model here:
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/transport/themes/goods/regional/hidden/regional_drive_en.html (http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/transport/themes/goods/regional/hidden/regional_drive_en.html)
(click on HDR brochure, or use this link:
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/transport/themes/hidden/download/dl_ss_hdr_screen.pdf (http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/transport/themes/hidden/download/dl_ss_hdr_screen.pdf))

Quote
Also the distributor says the excise tax on them is $40 per tire!


FET is not subject to any sort of negotiation by the dealer -- he's got to pay it correctly every time.  That said, some dealers "fudge" the numbers.  For example, technically the dealer should use the maximum single load rating (in pounds) to calculate the FET, but often they will use the lower "dual" load rating instead, especially if the tire is a drive- or trailer-type tire, or an all-position that he is installing on a dualed axle.

The FET is 9.45 cents for every ten pounds of load rating over 3,500.  So for a 12R22.5 with a load rating of 7,380 lbs, you'd pay (7,380-3,500)/10*$.0945, or $36.67 per tire.  By contrast, a 315/80R22.5 with a single load rating of 9,090 lbs, you'd pay (9,090-3,500)/10*$.0945, or $52.83 per tire.

That said, many manufacturers offer 315's in two different load ranges, typically H and J.  The H tire in that size has a load limit of just 7,610 dual (again, they really should use the single number), and the FET could calculate out at $38.84, if an unscrupulous dealer calculated it that way (the single limit in LR-H is 8,270, for an FET of $45.08).  Here is one such tire that is offered in both load ranges:
http://www.goodyear.com/cfmx/web/truck/line.cfm?prodline=160540 (http://www.goodyear.com/cfmx/web/truck/line.cfm?prodline=160540)

Hope that clears things up.  Again, many tire dealers themselves are simply uninformed about some of these details.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on June 20, 2009, 10:23:04 PM
Are the Goodyear G670RV tires really going to last twice as long as a normal truck tire?  I could almost buy two sets of pretty decent tires for what the G670RV tires cost.

No tire is likely to last my lifetime since I'm not even 40 yet.  I'm not looking forward to tire replacement in probably three more years.


Brian, my experience is that the G670RV tires are only 5%-10% more than similarly rated truck tires in the same size.  As I said above, you can't compare pricing on any 315 vs. a 12r -- they are very different tires.

BTW, I had a pair of G670RV tires in 315/80 -- they lasted about two years and 40,000 miles.  So, no, IMO, they are not worth even the 5-10%.  I have since gone back to 12R22.5 Firestones.

We had to replace the tires that came on the bus due to age.  Every tire we've bought since then we've worn out.  Unless you are expecting to get rid of or stop driving your bus in 6-7 years, no tire is going to be "the last tire you will have to buy."

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com




Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: paul102a3 on June 21, 2009, 04:55:43 AM
Sean,

Could you give your thoughts on all position tires vs dedicated drive and steers.

You stated above that you are running Firestones. May I ask what model firestones you are running?

Thanks


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on June 21, 2009, 09:11:44 AM
Could you give your thoughts on all position tires vs dedicated drive and steers.


For a bus that never (or rarely) leaves the pavement and does not spend any time in snow and ice, I would choose all-position "rib" tires with a closed shoulder, for better wear and fuel mileage.  This gives you the ability to rotate tires all the way around, which lets you even out the wear -- steer and tag tires will tend to wear on the shoulders, and drivers tend to wear in the center, so moving the steers to the drivers and vice-versa really helps.  Most of the commercial bus companies I have spoken with rotate this way, and all use all-position rib tires all the way around.

I personally use open-shoulder, block-tread traction tires on my drivers, and closed-shoulder rib tires on the steer and tag axles.  We spend enough time off road that we really appreciate the extra loose-surface traction these provide, and, while I can't prove it, I am fairly confident they've saved us a tow or two over the years.  The price I pay is increased wear, slightly reduced fuel mileage, and increased noise.  I got four years and 100,000 miles out of my last set (Bridgestone M711 in 12R22.5), which isn't bad.  I can't tell you the fuel mileage impact -- it's really too small for me to have noticed on my meager instrumentation.  The noise is really just a "hum" up in the cockpit -- I suspect it might bother us more if we rode right above those wheels, instead of 20' forward of them.

Quote
You stated above that you are running Firestones. May I ask what model firestones you are running?


I used to run Bridgestone R250F rib tires on the non-drive axles, but since my bus has shown a tendency to eat tires, I switched to the cheaper Firestone FS560 the last time I changed.  In between I briefly flirted with Goodyear 670RV in the larger 315/80R22.5 size, which was like flushing money down the toilet.

Finding high speed traction tires in my size is something of a challenge, and I really like having the M+S rating, so I stuck with the Bridgestone M711 on my last driver change.  My drive axle turns out to be slightly bowed, so I'm going to have to start rotating the outer duals to the inners, which will require dismounting and re-mounting, since I have steel inner wheels.

I should point out that I am generally brand-agnostic when it comes to tires.  I buy based on tread pattern, load and speed ratings, availability, and price in that order.  I would be just as happy with Goodyears or Toyos or Continentals, if I could get them in the styles I want at a good price when I need them.  So far, Bridgestone/Firestone has just proven easier to acquire at the random times and places when we need tires.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: paul102a3 on July 10, 2009, 07:08:12 AM
I thought I would share my tire buying experience in hopes that it may help others.

After a ton of phone calls I finally found a tire place in Tampa, FL that had some fairly reasonable tire prices. I needed to replace 4 drive tires and one steer. I know you are supposed to replace the steers as a pair but I had just purchased a new tire a few weeks ago so I only need one new steer to make a matched pair.

I chose to go with Firestone FS560+ for the drives and I needed a single Goodyear G149 to match the other one I had for the steers.

Prices are as follows; FS560 were 369.42 plus 36.76 FET and the Goodyear was 391.43 plus 36.76 FET.

Mounting, balancing, and new valve stems for 6 wheels/tires was an additional 175.00. There were 6 mount/dismounts as I had to move one tire to another rim.

I thought the price of 391.43 on the Goodyear was especially good as I had paid 640.00 a few weeks ago and had quotes of 605 to 615 from other Goodyear shops for a matching one.

I did check the date codes on the tires (another pearl of wisdom from the board) before they mounted the tires and they were all new.

If someone looks closely at my bus, it now looks a little funny. I have Goodyears on the steers, Firestones on the drives and Triangles on the tag. On the positive side, the oldest tires are the tags at two years and 4,000 miles so I hope no more tire problems as we start out in a few weeks on our trip to Nova Scotia and back down the East coast.

I was real happy with the shop. They took a lot of time to jack the bus correctly and pointed out little things here and there while the wheels were off. The service manager came out a number of times to make sure things were going well and they gave me a tool to remove/install the valve insert as well as a locking air chuck.

I spoke with the manager about tire pressures and his recommendation was to keep the tires between 110 and 115 cold. I mentioned that many on this board suggest having each axle weighed and then setting the tire pressure according to the charts provided by the tire manufacture. His argument was while this may be true in a perfect world, for many coaches, this leads to underinflation which leads to heat build up which culminates in tire failure. He stated that if you were looking to get the most mileage from the tire then he would agree with the per axle rule but as with most buses, the tire dry rots before they wear out.

He also stated that 9 times out of 10 when they pull tires from buses, there is evidence of overheating.

One last thing they commented on was the valve extensions for the inner drive wheels. My bus had extensions screwed onto the valve stems of the inner drive wheel to make it easier to check or fill the tire. They suggested eliminating the extentions because they cause a lot of problems on motor coaches or any vehicle that may dive on unimproved roads. They have had many incidents of a fallen tree branch getting caught between the drives and ripping the extension off the stem causing a leak.

The only negative at the shop was they ran out of stick on wheel weights for the aluminum wheels so I will need to swing back so they can re-balance the steers. They did try to use clip on weights for the short term but they came off on the dive home.

Hope some of this information helps.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Busted Knuckle on July 10, 2009, 07:33:04 AM
Quote from: paul102a3
I thought I would share my tire buying experience in hopes that it may help others.

After a ton of phone calls I finally found a tire place in Tampa, FL that had some fairly reasonable tire prices. I needed to replace 4 drive tires and one steer. I know you are supposed to replace the steers as a pair but I had just purchased a new tire a few weeks ago so I only need one new steer to make a matched pair.

Paul that's great news! Where was it in Tampa you dealt with? Way back in the day when I was trucking I dealt with Treadco there quite a bit and always felt they treated me right w/ good prices too!

;D  BK  ;D


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: paul102a3 on July 10, 2009, 09:25:20 AM
The company is called Boulevard Tire Centers and they are located on Adamo drive not too far from Detroit Diesel.

Paul


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on July 10, 2009, 11:49:23 AM
I spoke with the manager about tire pressures and his recommendation was to keep the tires between 110 and 115 cold. I mentioned that many on this board suggest having each axle weighed and then setting the tire pressure according to the charts provided by the tire manufacture. His argument was while this may be true in a perfect world, for many coaches, this leads to underinflation which leads to heat build up which culminates in tire failure. He stated that if you were looking to get the most mileage from the tire then he would agree with the per axle rule but as with most buses, the tire dry rots before they wear out.


Paul, this individual is horribly misinformed.  That is not only bad, but also potentially dangerous advice.

No one knows better what the proper inflation pressure of the tire is than the manufacturer itself.  For a tire salesman to say he knows more than the manufacturer about how much pressure should be in the tire is ludicrous.

If your axle load calls for, say, 90psi in the tire, and you run 115 instead, four things will happen, two of them seriously bad:
  • You will get better fuel mileage.
  • You will have a harsher ride.
  • You will wear out the center of the tread faster than you should.  This can be a problem for both drive traction and braking.
  • Here's the biggy:  You will have a smaller contact patch with the road.  This will significantly increase your braking distance even on dry pavement; in slick conditions such as rain, snow, ice, or oil on the road, this can be a potentially deadly, skid-causing situation.

My advice:  don't do it.  Weigh your axles and run the proper pressure per the manufacturers' recommendations, otherwise you are asking the tires to perform outside their design limits.

The salesman is correct that the tires will run cooler if you over-inflate them.  But cooler does not mean safer, until you get to the point where the tire exceeds its design temperature.  That's why the manufacturers set their recommendations where they do, and why higher speeds require higher pressures.  In fact, tires that are too cold also present lower traction and a higher risk of skidding in a hard braking situation.  This is why you see race drivers "warming up" their tires before the race.

Quote
He also stated that 9 times out of 10 when they pull tires from buses, there is evidence of overheating.


That's because 9 times out of 10, the tires were under-inflated -- by which I mean less pressure than the manufacturer's recommendation for load and speed.  This is true for almost all vehicles -- drivers are notoriously lax about checking tire pressures, and many drivers have no clue what their axle weights are.

If you really want to avoid this situation, invest in a tire pressure monitoring system.  That's a much safer alternative than just running the tires 10-20 psi "over" for a "safety margin" that might, in actuality, be compromising your safety.

FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: luvrbus on July 10, 2009, 12:48:59 PM
Paul, what does MCI recommend for tire pressures I read here all the time about having your axles weighed to get the correct tire pressure.
In the Eagle manual and the tire chart it shows 105# front 100# rears and 90# 0n the bogies or tag empty or loaded.
I know what happen with Ford and their chart guys


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on July 10, 2009, 01:11:52 PM
Paul, what does MCI recommend for tire pressures ...


The coach builder's recommendations are a good starting point.  But remember, these are only applicable on the factory tires.  So if your coach came, say, with 12R22.5, but you've changed to 315/80R22.5, the coach builder's numbers will no longer be correct.  Additionally, tire technology has changed quite a bit in the last few decades; if you have a coach built in the 70's, the nameplate pressure recommendations will have been for 70's-era tires, and may not be the correct pressures for today's tires.

Perhaps more importantly, the coach builder's nameplate recommendations for a seated coach will be a high end value, for the coach's rated capacity.  A seated coach's weight can vary 10,000-15,000 lbs up or down depending on whether it is loaded or empty.  By contrast, a converted coach usually does not have that much variability in the weight; ours, for example, only varies up or down by about 3,800 lbs, which is the weight of our maximum fuel and water deltas.  When you weigh your axles, you should do so fully loaded, including tankage, so you will have the correct value to reference the tire charts.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: luvrbus on July 10, 2009, 01:18:54 PM
That very well could be Sean as the info I posted was from a 1994 Eagle 40 or 45 foot     good luck


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: paul102a3 on July 10, 2009, 03:58:17 PM
Sean,

Your points are well taken. I wasn't condoning or even agreeing with the advice from the service manager I was just passing it on. I think your methodology is the better way but as you stated in your post, most drivers are less than perfect when it comes to monitoring tire pressures. In the absence of a monitoring system, I think he was saying to start out higher so there is a period of slightly higher pressure which becomes a more correct pressure as time goes by.

The MCI tire chart states 115 for the steers and 85 for the drives and tags. Based on the design of the conversion, the majority of the weight is biased to the rear of the bus and I suspect 85 is too low.

It is my intention to get each axle weighed and then I can set the pressures correctly.


Paul


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: John316 on July 10, 2009, 06:40:49 PM
Interesting what the shop said. We will try the weighing each axle method, but I think that we will be 100 percent maxing the tire pressure out on our tires. As we are doing our conversion, we are watching weight. I think that all said and done, our coach will be right at it's limit. Not to mention needing to pull a trailer soon.

So I think for us it will be 120 to 130 PSI.

God bless,

John


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: TomC on July 10, 2009, 09:12:03 PM
Just remember that the manufacturers suggested tire pressure is for a fully loaded passenger bus with full cargo compartments-and with enough safety to cover their butts from getting sued. 

Quite simply-you can't beat the accuracy of weighing each axle when in fully loaded travelling mode, then go by the tire manufacturers inflation rate.  Like I've said before, I run 11R-24.5 16ply Michelin XZE tires all around.  They are rated for 14,200lbs at 120psi in the front and 26,200lb at 110psi in the rear.  If I ran that, my bus would ride like a fork lift.  I have 10,500lbs in front, 20,500lbs in the rear.  That works out between 85-90psi-so I run 90psi all around, and with Pressure Pro wireless tire monitors.  At every stop when driving (about every 2 hours on average) I always check my tires (can't stop being a truck driver), and I feel each tire for excessive heat buildup, or a hot running tire.  Because of these precautions, I rarely have a running tire problem.

I know that Sean has a wireless tire monitor that both transmits tire pressure and tire temperature.  Maybe Sean will share in the make of his monitor!  Good Luck, TomC


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: WEC4104 on July 11, 2009, 05:50:58 AM
Yesterday, I was in my car on the highway around Baltimore. I passed a seated 45 Prevost belonging to "Bolt Bus", which I think is part of Greyhound.  The tire inflation placards above each wheel caught my eye. The drive and tag said "105 cold" and the steer was "130 cold".   This tells me this is a pretty heavy beast.


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: luvrbus on July 11, 2009, 07:23:59 AM
 I checked with my friend at Marathon he said they follow Prevost recommendations for air pressure they don't weigh the axles for air pressure. They just stay in the 51,400 lbs gross weight using 365/70R on the front, tag and 315/80R on the drives
How do guys figure out how much air is best the only air pressure rating I have is for the maximum pressure and talking to my Toyo rep in Scottsdale ( not a salesman but a factory rep) he states you give 5% tire life by running his tires below a 100 lbs is that true for all tires     

good luck


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: TomC on July 11, 2009, 07:30:10 AM
Luvrbus-  whatever tire brand you have, you can go to their website and pull up the tire inflation tables for your exact tire size.  Actually, the tire inflation tables are pretty close to each other from manufacturer to manufacturer. Please weigh your bus by axle and go to the tire website and use that tire pressure.  About the only restriction is that if your bus is lighter then whats on the inflation table. Then just use the lowest inflation number.  For instance, my 11R24.5's on my truck-if inflated to cover the maximum weight rating of truck tandems on the road is 34,000lb or 17,000lb per axle.  At that weight, I can run just 70psi in my tires- which is still closer to 18,000lb. But- 70psi is the lowest listed pressure.  DO NOT run the maximum pressure listed on the side of the tire as explained very well by Sean.  Good Luck, TomC


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: luvrbus on July 11, 2009, 07:47:52 AM
TomC, I have been around a lot of Prevost and they use the maximum air pressure on the front because they are so heavy on the front.
That is why most have the 365/70R on the front now with a 10.5 in wheel.
Over the years I have found out a bus equipped with a tag or boggie it it easy to over load the front axle about impossible to over load the rear and tags.    good luck


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on July 11, 2009, 10:27:38 AM
...
I know that Sean has a wireless tire monitor that both transmits tire pressure and tire temperature.  Maybe Sean will share in the make of his monitor!


We have a SmarTire (http://www.smartire.com/rv (http://www.smartire.com/rv)), and we love it.  It's a bit pricey, and you really want to install it when you are changing or upgrading your tires, because the sensors actually mount inside the wheels (they are secured with a band clamp).  Also, you will want to watch like a hawk any time a tire is changed, to make sure the tire jockey is careful to avoid the sender with the tire irons.

My setup has two antennas -- one in front near the steer axle, and one in back near the drive axle.  There is a small display on the dashboard, and the display and antennas wire back to a small control box, which is also wired to switched 12-volt power.  If you have a toad, you may need a third antenna at the very back of the bus to pick up the toad senders, or you may be able to locate one antenna to pick up the toad and the rear wheels together.

I checked with my friend at Marathon he said they follow Prevost recommendations for air pressure they don't weigh the axles for air pressure. They just stay in the 51,400 lbs gross weight using 365/70R on the front, tag and 315/80R on the drives


One of Marathon's dirty secrets is that all their coaches are extra-legal weight.  If non-commercial RV's had to stop at weigh stations, every one of their slide-equipped coaches would be cited in most states (a handful of western states have very generous limits; ironically, Oregon, where Marathons are built, is not one of them).

Contrary to what your friend there suggests, Marathon figures the weight for each new model as it is completed.  However, they have not added a new model to their lineup in years.  They have 17 floor plans (each with a known weight, more or less), and you can get anything you want as long as it is one of those plans.  The days of truly custom Marathon conversions ended nearly a decade ago.

Also, I would not hold Marathon up as a paragon of safety or good design.  I've had to help clean up their mess more than once, and I wouldn't recommend a new Marathon to anyone even on a bet.  (However, some of their older coaches can be excellent values on the used market -- their design deficiencies are now well-known, and it is relatively easy to make one of their older units into a reliable and functional coach).  Among other things, their willful disregard for safety codes (including the federal bridge limit) troubles me.  Lastly, no one ever got sued for sticking with the chassis-builder's maximum recommendation.

... Over the years I have found out a bus equipped with a tag or boggie it it easy to over load the front axle about impossible to over load the rear and tags. ...


Hmm.  If I had a way to hang about 2,000 lbs on my front bumper I would, just to take some weight off my poor, overloaded drivers.  When I was designing my coach, I did everything I could to move weight forward, including putting 1,500 lbs of batteries, cables, and equipment over the front wheel wells.

Seated coaches tend to fill from the front -- that's what passengers, left to themselves, will do.  By contrast, conversions tend to be heavy in the rear, because that's where the partitions end up to divide off the bedroom and bathroom (and woodwork is heavy), plus many of the heavier fixtures such as sinks, showers, toilets, etc., not to mention the matress and bed platform.  The galley, another heavy part of the coach, while ahead of the drivers, generally is closer to them than the steers.

To some degree, you can compensate for this in the bays, by putting heavy stuff like generators and batteries forward.  Many of the S&S class-A builders are locating their gennys ahead of the front axle for just this reason.  Our weird bay configuration made this difficult for us.

Incidentally, the reason Prevost is equipping their conversion shells and some seated coaches with 10.5" rims for 365/70R22.5 tires is not really because the 315/80R22.5 on 9" rims can not handle the load -- they can.  It is for passenger comfort, to run lower tire pressures.  To carry the legal (federal) limit of 20,000 lbs on the steer axle, you would need to inflate your 315/80R tires to 130psi, which could be a bone-jarring ride (by Prevost standards, anyway).  Using the larger tires allows for much lower (thus more comfortable) air pressures.

FWIW, I tried this same technique on my own coach, by going from 12R22.5 tires to 315/80R22.5 tires, both of which will fit on my 9" rims (I upgraded from 8.25" to 9" when I switched to aluminum wheels, just so I could do this).  In our case, comfort was not the issue, but rather soft-surface traction (we spend a fair amount of time off the pavement), and we wanted to run the lower pressures.  Ultimately, we found it was not worth the hassle or expense.  The heavier tires are harder to find, much more expensive, and carry a higher FET.  We've now switched back to 12R22.5 all the way around.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: luvrbus on July 11, 2009, 10:45:38 AM
If, you want more weight on your front put more air on the tags, works on Prevost,Eagle and MCI I don't know about a Neo and yes the last 45 foot Eagles built in Brownsville had a air tag    good luck


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: John316 on July 11, 2009, 10:46:44 AM
Sean,

Thanks for the post, and the info. It was helpful.

God bless,

John


Title: Re: Goodyear Tires
Post by: Sean on July 11, 2009, 10:58:23 AM
If, you want more weight on your front put more air on the tags, works on Prevost,Eagle and MCI I don't know about a Neo and yes the last 45 foot Eagles built in Brownsville had a air tag    good luck


If I had a way to do that, I would have done so long ago.  The tags are underloaded compared to the drivers.

Unfortunately, Neoplan uses a single ride-height valve in the back.  There is no separate control for the tag air, and no way to induce differential pressure in the tag bags versus the drive bags.  Putting a second ride height valve in would just cause the axles to constantly compete with each other.  About the only way to increase the percentage of weight on the tags is to go to a larger diameter air spring.  I've probably asked a dozen shops about this, and not a single one was willing to touch the project.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com