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Title: mpg to Florida
Post by: JohnEd on January 09, 2011, 11:30:02 AM
OK, Belfert got 7.9 mpg from a series 60 with a B500 trans.  That's good info.

How did you do with your 9V71 and 740 set up, Busswarrior?

Hope others will post their performance for us that have in_quiring minds.

I recall the Clifford is on record as getting 8 from a 8V92 with a 740 in a Eagle but I will let him correct that if I am mistaken.

Thanks,

John

Posted this the first timne in another post....sorry.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Ace on January 09, 2011, 11:57:36 AM
First off BW didn't take his bus to Arcadia. He drove a SUV so his mpg might be a little misrepresented. Second, not to dispute Belferts mpg, I find it hard to believe that he got that mileage since I know a lot of friends with the same motor and with all due respect to Brian, more regular maintained and they only get above 6 mpg. I'm not saying he didn't, just saying hard to believe and if he is relying solely on his vms well then, that too could be a factor!


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: luvrbus on January 09, 2011, 12:21:11 PM
I think Brian could get the mileage without much trouble he has 4:10 gears with a overdrive transmission, wasn't towing anything, a 11.1 60's with 350 hp settting not a full blown conversion so he is lite and with the weather he could not be in a hurry

good luck


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Busted Knuckle on January 09, 2011, 12:53:08 PM
Ace,
Not trying to start any arguments here, but I personally know Brian can & should get that out of a Dina.
As Clifford said the Dina's are geared tall and get great mileage. Before Brian or I either one had one a local operator I know told me his were getting up to 11 mpg on a regular basis.
Now while I haven't seen that out of ours I have seen 8 mpg regularly measured on the amount of gallons used per the miles traveled method. There have been several times I have run 800 to 820 miles and put exactly 100 gallons in it. (I always fill it all the way up in the neck since I know it's fixing to get burned, as we usually fuel en-route to pick up our passengers so that we arrive with full tanks and can go the distance once loaded!)

I can't say that for our new Setra's as they seem to avg, 5-6 mpg. I do have a '95 S215 (just like the one you went and looked @ for Paul Hastings) with the 12.7 and B500 that avgs 6.5-7 mpg.
FWIW ;D  BK  ;D

Just my personal experiences YMMV!


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: belfert on January 09, 2011, 01:00:35 PM
Ace, I checked the MPG on the first tankful and it was pretty close to the VMSpc.  I filled up just north of Valdosta, GA and was able to drive to Arcadia and almost all the way back to Chattanooga on that tank.  The amount of fuel that I put in matched almost exactly the amount VMSpc reported using.  I was off a few gallons due to generator use along the way.

This was my first trip with the VMSpc.  I was actually a bit disappointed by the 7.9 MPG.  In the past I have hand calculated and usually get 8 MPG or better with a light load like I had this time, but I was also running winter fuel.  My tank has no filler neck so I can see the fuel level and I fill it to the same level every time.

Ace, I have no idea why you infer poor maintenance?  Oil is changed yearly, coolant has been replaced twice in just under 5 years, ATF has been changed out to Transynd, and the chassis is lubed yearly.  I have had oil analysis done the past two oil changes and I check the SCA levels yearly.  The air dryer has been fully serviced, twice!  Brakes are professionally checked at least once a year.  I had all of the brake drums, brake shoes, and wheel bearings replaced when I bought the bus.  I have put on less than 25,000 miles since I bought the bus.

Yes, I admit I had an issue with the air system and it was due to a stupid mistake!  I made a poor assumption and used a 24 volt purge valve instead of the correct 12 volt purge valve the first time I serviced the air dryer.  I rebuilt the air dryer again just before I went to Arcadia and it worked just fine for that trip.  


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Ericbsc on January 09, 2011, 01:04:32 PM
I had to sorta back out the generator runnung. From Spartanburg, SC to Arcadia FL. got app. 6.5-7 mpg. If I could have kept it to 65 mph probably would have been better, but with the 8-71 gotta get a run at every hill. 05 Eagle 39000 lbs with 18' trailer @ 8500lbs. 8v-71, allison mt-654, 3:73 rear.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Ace on January 09, 2011, 01:10:33 PM
Brian I wasn't insinuating that YOU didn't maintain YOUR bus because I honestly don't know but I DO know about the ones I AM familiar with and their routine maintenance and they NEVER see that mileage but I must admit I forgot you had thr smaller 60 series where most everything I am familiar with is the 12 or 14 liter.
To add the ones I know of are a lot heavier and pulling a toad which Clifford was so kind to remind me of. I should have thought of those factors before I posted but the numbers caught my attention first!



Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: belfert on January 09, 2011, 01:18:58 PM
I'm not sure if the MPG numbers Bryce mentioned are with the 11.1 or the 12.7.  Dina had to switch to the 12.7 after the 11.1 was discontinued.  I have a feeling that the 12.7 might get even better MPG as it wouldn't be pushed so hard.

I was running 65 MPH for about 2/3rds of my trip.  About 1/4 of the trip was at 60 MPH and the rest was at 70 MPH.  I did 70 MPH for a while to try to make it to Raines Bus before they closed for the day.  I realized I wasn't going to make it after a while and I slowed back down.  The last leg of my trip I did at 60 MPH  to see if MPG would improve and it did.  Winter weather was only an issue for about 150 miles and I was still doing 55 to 60 MPH during that time.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Ericbsc on January 09, 2011, 03:34:34 PM
I am in the process of changing fron the 8-71n to a 12.7 430-470 series 60 with an allison 4000mhp. I have been told that I should see a signifacant increase( when you are at 6-7 mpg what is that LOL). It got to be better than I have now. We ar uphill every direction we go with the 2 stroke hammered.  I should know in a couple months


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: RichardEntrekin on January 09, 2011, 04:51:40 PM
Ok, I didn't get to go to Florida, but I wish I had. It was 7 degrees here this morning. I won't call my Newell a bus, so don't get wadded up. It does have a 12.7L S60 mated to an Ally World transmission, 6 speed. It weighs 42,000 lbs loaded with water and fuel. I drive 65 to 68 mph normally and pull either a Subaru Outback or Honda CRV. It gets anywhere between 6.8 and 7.2 depending on the wind, terrain, how many AC units the bride has cranking, and if I hedge toward 70. It turns about 1500 RPM at 65 mph. That mileage has been tracked for about 15000 miles, so I am pretty confident in the number.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: JohnEd on January 09, 2011, 05:33:10 PM
48,500 pounds of aerodynamic Iggle pushed by a state of the art 8V71(injected) connected to the "ultra" Allison 654 and being constrained to "over 65" and that gets 7mpg?  I want to see what beats that.

I got the part about the hills.  I doubt the series 60 12.7 L will have a single problem with any hill and I sure am looking forward to hearing about the mpg.

Thank you for the info.

John


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Ericbsc on January 09, 2011, 06:09:13 PM
LIke I said close as I could figure. Truth be known closer to 6.5. That dosen;t sound so good !!LOL


Title: `
Post by: luvrbus on January 09, 2011, 06:47:25 PM
Eric is spending a few bucks for maybe a MPG John but the hills will be a big difference for Eric those 8v71 are not much in the hills.
When he comes west with the 60 series and climbs the grade between La Grande and Pendleton Or, and if he come to see me and makes the grade from Laughlin NV to Kingman Az that one separates the men from the boys (ask Van lol) I see more blown engines on those 2 grades than any place I have been trucks and buses
good luck


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: buswarrior on January 09, 2011, 07:18:39 PM
Well, my new to me 1996 Vortec 5700 in a K1500 Suburban, 3.42 gears, brand new Pep Boys house brand tires, showed me 17.5 mpg US/21 mpg imp/13.5 litres/100km for the trip home. Ran it like a religion tucked over in the right lane between 60 and 65 mph. GPS and odometer within 2%. GPS and speedomoeter 4%...whatever...

Southbound was 1/2 a mpg less, due to higher driving velocities, perhaps the worn tires? whatever...?

Lots of fun comparing the GPS summaries, average moving speed was much closer than what you might guess in comparing the two runs. Lots of fun in those gizmos!

3000 mile/5000 km round trip to my fuel starting point.

$562 of gasoline.

The coach would have been 6 mpg US southbound at 70 mph, and a decimal or three better northbound at the somewhat slower speed. The coach won't show 7 mpg without staying solidly under the 60 mph ceiling.

IIRC, it was $1500 for the diesel for Bussin 2006, so not much has changed...

happy coaching!
buswarrior



Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: uncle ned on January 10, 2011, 09:22:50 AM


Well "HUGGY" and I came down 321 then 301 to Ocalla. averaged a little above 7. Then we hit 75 or was it 85 most of the time, down to Bradenton then over to Arcadia. averged a little under 5.

Lets see a little under 5 and a little above 7 averages out to 13. by my figures.

The new tall tires really help.

uncle ned

all good busnuts can tell a few fibs


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Chopper Scott on January 10, 2011, 05:04:38 PM
For what it's worth..... I was getting 6.5 mpg with my 8-71 and Allison pulling a 16' x 102" trailer last spring. Generally running at 65 mph.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Highway Yacht on January 10, 2011, 07:22:06 PM
Since I've only had my current bus for only a short time, I've only been able to check the mileage once, and that was from Roanoke VA to Charlotte NC when I purchased the bus. I averaged a little over 8 MPG but granted it was mostly all down hill, and since it was my first trip, I never got over 55mph.
Also the bus was just an empty shell so no where near as heavy as a seated or converted coach. I'm hoping for 6.5 or better after the conversion.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: DMoedave on January 10, 2011, 09:38:22 PM
Well i dident do as good as i first thought. My milage was terrible heading up into Pa and the killer hills and headwinds. Then heading south with the wind behind us we started getting some good numbers 10.3 was the best for a good stretch. all said and done including in the rain and headwinds home (do you hear me making excuses) we averaged 8.6 for the whole trip. I was really hoping to do better as we had no toad and i was  keeping it at 60 or 55 even most of the time. Spent 1024. in diesel and that bought us 313.4 gals. Paid 3.35 Christmas day in NJ.(3.39 in NJ last friday) 3.25 in Va way down, 3.19 way back (saw a cheeper place and remembered  it)  3.17 South Carolina dnown, 3.21 return trip, and bought 30 gals in Fla at 3.23 gal but it took some digging to find that. 301 in Wildwood. i bought at truck stops everywhere but Fla.  So for the whole trip it was 8.6 avg and fuel avg out to 3.26 gal.  These were all cash prices btw.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: davido on January 10, 2011, 09:59:26 PM
We just made a trip to south FL and back hauling five guys and a race car in an enclosed trailer. This also included running the generator a lot, so it's hard to tell for sure. We averaged 5.72 over 2250 miles over the trip. That last tank was kept right around 70 MPH with little to no generator use, so that's probably the best guess at just the driving MPG. Some of the others pushed 75 some of the time and used the generator. When parked the generator ran 12+ hours at the track.

161.8      36.76    $3.239     $119.07    4.40
342.5      69.256    $3.199     $221.55    4.95
379.1      59.18    $3.299     $195.23    6.41
316.5      54.929    $3.299     $181.21    5.76
316.9      51.452    $3.290     $169.28    6.16
385.1      70.753    $3.199     $226.34    5.44
346.8      50.172    $3.099     $155.48    6.91         
            
Miles: 2248.7   
Gallons: 392.502
Avg Cost: $3.232
Total Cost: $1,268.16
MPG: 5.72

All of the miles were based off of the GPS trip-o-meter and the gallons off of the receipts.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: dougyes on January 11, 2011, 05:17:06 PM
We had the opportunity to drive a MCI J with the Cat C13/Allison 6 speed auto this summer. It was the nicest bus I ever drove. Averaged 6mpg.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: JohnEd on January 11, 2011, 09:02:25 PM
Dmoe,

Bus?  Engine?  Trans?  hair color? ;D

John


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: DMoedave on January 11, 2011, 11:00:53 PM
Sorry about that. its a brand new 63 year old GMCI 3703-5A-C. 6V71,Allison 654, was mostely brown,rapidly graying.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: luvrbus on January 12, 2011, 05:32:55 AM
While I got decent fuel mileage I never went on a trip where I did not use 5 mpg rule made you feel good when it turned out for the better  


good luck


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: JackConrad on January 12, 2011, 06:08:59 AM
Like Clifford, I figure 5 MPG, then when I calculate actual MPG, I feel good when it exceeds 5 MPG.  On our 8 month trip last year, we went 6,323.9 miles and used 1,104.9 gallons of fuel for an average of 5.72 MPG. I did find a loose clamp on a fuel line the other day, but not sure how much that affected the MPG. We spent a total of 2,945.46 for fuel which gave us an average cost of $0.46 per mile.
The cheapest fuel we purchased was $2.739 and the most expensive was $3.289.  Jack


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Busted Knuckle on January 12, 2011, 07:48:29 AM
While I got decent fuel mileage I never went on a trip where I did not use 5 mpg rule made you feel good when it turned out for the better  
good luck

Like Clifford (& Jack) when figuring fuel costs for trips I use 5 mpg as a base. (actually I have my program in the computer set @ 3 city & 5 hwy) with all the local shuttling and idling etc we do avg 5 mpg so I'm usually in decent shape on my figures. (I'd rather spend a little less than planned than go over budget!)
;D  BK  ;D
 PS we have a couple buses that do a little better than that, but for the ease of simplicity I figure all of them @ 5!


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: blank on January 12, 2011, 12:46:57 PM
  Its great to see mileage, but without knowing what your pushing,weighing, and cranking it with, or how hard your cranking, it doesnt tell us much.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: JackConrad on January 12, 2011, 01:08:06 PM
 Its great to see mileage, but without knowing what your pushing,weighing, and cranking it with, or how hard your cranking, it doesnt tell us much.

You arre absolutely correct.  In my case an MC-8 with an 8V71 NA and Allison 740 turning a 3.73 rear gear. Bus weighs approx 36,500 and we tow a Jeep Grand Cherokee (3400#??) traveling throughout the Southeast and Midwest. we try to stay between 60-65 and on non-interstate roads.  Generatator and Proheat are fed from a separate tank.  Jack


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: rv_safetyman on January 12, 2011, 04:59:07 PM
MPG threads are always fun.

I just checked my VMSpc and it shows 7.6 MPG over 60K miles.  I think I might be a little lower since my tank fills seem to be a little more that the VMSpc shows (seems to have occurred when I put the replacement Series 60 in).  Bus is 46K with the service truck.  Was about 3-4K less when we were pulling the Durango.

My VMSpc should be reasonably accurate, since my generator and Aqua-Hot are fueled by a separate tank.

We tend to set the cruise control on 68 MPH.  I am geared so that at 68 MPH the engine is at a bit less than 1500 RPM. 

I tried to play with slower speeds when fuel got so high a couple of years ago.  I did not see a significant difference at 63 MPH.  The 1500 seems to be the sweet spot (agrees with some of the engine curves I have seen).  Series 60 engines do not seem to like to lug as well as the Cat and Cummins from what I can tell.

Living in CO, we do a lot of hill climbing.  The biggest factor seems to be the wind. 

I have been trying to do more two lane driving in the past couple of years.  I really notice a drop in mileage on those roads.  Sometimes over 1 MPG.  It takes a lot of fuel to accelerate that much weight when you have to slow down for all the small towns (or stop for several stop lights).

In my engine conversion series in BCM I present some calculations that, based on an estimated 5.5 MPG with the 6V92, I have saved something like $4K on fuel over the 60K miles.  Of course, Clifford had to point out the the cost of my second engine really wiped that out ;D >:(.

One last observation.  I am pretty sure I saw a decline (perhaps 5%) in MPG as ultra-low sulfur fuel was phased in.  The seems to be in keeping with general thinking.

Jim

 



Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: white-eagle on January 12, 2011, 06:59:36 PM
We have an 8v92T with 740.  we weigh around 39k lbs and i drive 65-70. We got somewhere around 6.2 mpg, mostly Interstate with some traffic lights on some side highways.  from louisville to valdosta.  Haven't filled again yet in florida, but it ain't lookin cheap.
We're in the only warm place in the continental US, Florida Keys.

Oh, i forgot, we're still usin a gallon and a half of oil a day.  if it gets much worse, we'll be lookin for a close place to pull this Reliabilt engine with the silicone gasket.  i've got to call those folks and see what they know.



Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Chopper Scott on January 12, 2011, 07:19:03 PM
BK has it figured out. Anything above 5 mpg is gravy so enjoy it. If you bought such a rig thinking it would save you money then you might need to check on your intake of meds again!!


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: blank on January 12, 2011, 08:04:17 PM
BK has it figured out. Anything above 5 mpg is gravy so enjoy it. If you bought such a rig thinking it would save you money then you might need to check on your intake of meds again!!

  But it is nice to see that 5 mpg doesnt have to be the upper limit. I still remember when I was young, I asked a city bus driver what a city metro bus got for mileage. He said about 7. At first that sounded awful, but as reality sank in I began to see how awesome that actually was. A neighbor once gave me a 73 Buick 455 station wagon, that useless car never did better than 4 or 5 mpg. But gas wasnt $3 gallon yet either. That a giant city transit bus full of people could get better mileage than that stupid car still bothers me.

  It also appears that many here are pushing the later model 40 foot (and longer/wider/taller) buses, most are running rather heavy conversions approaching 40K pounds, and many have big power to make it move. That most are staying above 5 with those buggers is pretty remarkable. But wouldnt it be nicer to plan for 7 and never see it?


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: RJ on January 12, 2011, 08:14:11 PM
Art -

Oddball bits of info for you:

For more discussion about Detroit engines, try the Detroit Diesel group on Yahoo.

Stock 6V71 w/ a 4-valve head puts out 238 hp and 650 ft/lbs of torque with N60 injectors - same as an inline 6-71.  Incredibly "gutless" in a 40-foot bus, can barely get a Fishbowl up to 60 mph, even with the lower top speed transit gearing (4.56:1 or 5.33:1, compared to an MCIs 3.73:1).

A 6V71T puts out 275 hp and 801 ft/lbs with N75 injectors, whereas the inline 6-71T puts out 290/810.   

Stock 8V71 in "bus trim", like BW said, puts out 275 hp and 770 ft/lbs w/ N60s, 304 ("318") and 866 ft/lbs with N65s.

An 8V71T can be configured to either 350/990 or 375/1064 hp/torque, depending on injectors.

Stock 6V92T in "bus trim", again, 275 hp like the 8V NA, but with slightly more torque - 816 ft/lbs.

Play with the injectors (9G90s), and you can bump it to a reliable 350 hp with 1020 ft/lbs.

At altitude, the 350 hp 8V71T will out pull the 6V92T on long grades.  8V92TAs will easily outrun both.  BTDTHLB.

71 series can be set to 2300 or 2400 rpm (fire service) and still be reliable, 92s don't like more than 2100.

Either engine series, when freshly rebuilt, will last forever in RV service with good routine PM.  Your choice.


When I drove professionally, all of the MCIs in the fleet (8s, 9s, A3s) averaged 5 - 6.5 mpg, depending on where you were going and what you were doing.  Didn't seem to matter if it was a stick or auto, 8V71, 8V71T, 6V92TA or 8V92TA, overall mileage averages were the same.  These coaches have the aerodynamics of a brick, basically.

The 40-foot GMC Buffalos (none with the retractable tags) averaged 6 - 7.5 mpg.  All 8V71s with 4-spd manuals.  Lighter and "cleaner" aerodynamically than the MCIs.  Weight makes a difference!

The 4106s in the fleet were the mileage champs - they consistently got 8 - 9 mpg, regardless of how hard you drove them.  Driven conservatively, on flat ground, you can squeeze 10 out of an '06.  (Hard to do -  these aren't called the original "Sports Car of Buses" for nothing!  The RTS with a 4.10 rear axle is the second generation - right, Geoff?)

As most 4104 drivers will tell you, getting 9 - 11 mpg is pretty easy.  They're the "cleanest" aerodynamically (at least those that haven't been capped), and the 6-71 just chugs right along happily in it's "sweet spot" at 60 mph.

All of the above are mechanical engines, no DDECs.

I don't think anyone here will dispute the fact that running 75 mph can cost you somewhere between 1 - 2 mpg in fuel economy compared to running 65.   Simple physics - it take so much hp and torque to push these bricks thru the air at speed.

Make sense?

FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)


Footnote:  Your city bus driver when you were a kid probably never filled the fuel tank, either.  IBME that transit buses, based on the nature of their operation, usually get between 2 - 4 mpg - even worse now with all the CNG-powered fleets to keep the environmental wackos happy.  They're getting the equivalent of 1.5 mpg.  Progress!

Oh, and as for that MCI w/ the broken engine?  500 bucks max.  It'll cost you more than than to have it towed home.  Keep looking, better bargains are out there!

 ;)



Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: belfert on January 12, 2011, 08:19:03 PM
I plan my trips based on getting at least 7 MPG.  I do usually overestimate the price of fuel though.  I planned on paying $3.50 a gallon average for my trip to Arcadia and I probably averaged around $3.20 a gallon.  I only paid $3.50 a gallon on my last fillup at home of around 30 gallons.

7 MPG would be great for a transit bus.  The city buses here average about 3.7 MPG per news reports.  I'm not sure if this is the average of all 885 buses that include city, suburban, and express routes, or just the average of the 40 foot transit buses.  The agency operates 45 foot MCIs, 40 foot transits, and 60 foot articulated transits.  I was shocked to hear how low the MPG is for city buses.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: buswarrior on January 12, 2011, 08:27:02 PM
If we drove any of our coaches like a transit bus, we'd see the same dismal results.

Either full fuel, or full brakes, no cruising here, huge fuel burn to get that thing rolling, full horsepower use, torque converter unlocked, and in the lower gears, lots of spin for little movement.

That driver from your youth did not know of what he was speaking.

happy coaching!
buswarrior


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: blank on January 12, 2011, 08:58:08 PM
  Remember, that was almost 40 years ago and were talking a GMC fishbowl running genuine #2 fuel oil, if it makes any difference. Hey, im just the idiot asking questions lol. But several others said simular, FWIW. People do like to BS though... But they were the same people who told me 4104 would get 12 plus. Which back when we had good fuel was probably realistic if they can still hit 11 running the crap we have today.

  Right now I get between 6 and 8 pushing the bounder, usually with my foot mashed hard down on the floor. That supposedly makes 190 HP, so its apparently maxed out full pushing that sucker through the air at 65 to 70, yanking the Jeep along. Im at around 20K pounds right now with full tanks. I just dont see how I can do any worse with a Bus. If I could get the same economy shoving a 40 foot -9 down the highway, I win! If I can do better, its a win win. Weight, aerodynamics, speed, BTU of fuel, rolling resistance, driving habits and fuel efficiency all work together. Change any one, and you will effect fuel economy.

  RJ, in regards the broken motor Bus, I am rapidly losing interest before I even see it. Y'all are doin a good job convincing me. And I do appreciate it.

 

 


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Ed Hackenbruch on January 13, 2011, 08:47:46 AM
I usually start looking for fuel when i have gone 700 miles. I figure that at 7mpg i have used 100 gallons and still have 44 in the tank. :) I got out my fuel log to see how i had done over the years.   As of the first week of Oct. (haven't gone anywhere since then)  in 6 & 1/2 years we have gone 32,106 miles, used 4343.2 gallons of fuel at a cost of $12,686, with an average price of $2.92 per gallon, and gotten 7.39 mpg. Have had a high of 8.2 and a low of 5.9 mpg during that time. This is in a 68 MCI 5A that  has gone from 27,450 lbs. to just over 29,000 lbs. over the years.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Don Fairchild on January 13, 2011, 12:29:24 PM
I run all over the west and to new Orleans and Bk's from time to time. My coach weighs in at 34,950 loaded and over 41,000 when I pull my truck. I pull the truck most of the time. When I leave Bakersfield I will climb a hill some of them only last a few minutes to over 15 minutes, like going to Seattle. I have  an 8V95TA set at 550HP and a 6Sp Allison. I run at 68 mph as much as possable. That is 1650 rpm. I average 8.4. When I don't have the truck on the back I get 8.9 any body can plug into the computer and see the fuel consumption. You can see for your self what I get.

Don

oh and the 8V71 set at 425 hp 1202ft lbs tq will get you up a hill.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: luvrbus on January 13, 2011, 12:52:35 PM
Don, you need to reduce it back to 500 hp buddy when you were getting 9+ the price of fuel today 300 hp is looking good just a little more time in saddle.
fwiw Art the 4104 with a 6-71 inline DDEC makes for a good setup 330 hp 11 to 14 mpg and that will get you over the hill too   


good luck


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Ed Hackenbruch on January 13, 2011, 04:42:28 PM
Should have mentioned that i have an 8v71 that has just under 50,000 miles on a rebuild, no turbo, supposed to have been bumped up to 318 or 308 hp depending on who you are talking to. Also i have a MT 644 auto tranny. :)


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: DMoedave on January 13, 2011, 07:14:45 PM
New and Older Trailways buses. finally! Been trying to post this for 2 days. Sorry you gotta turn sideways. I think we would  be more areodynamic than the new one even with our door open lol.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: JohnEd on January 15, 2011, 09:29:14 AM
Don,

What bus do you have?  Is your "TA" an air to air after cooler or the DD version of the air to water that sits under the blower?  My impression has always been that the DD would benefit greatly from an after-cooler that was positioned between the turbo and blower and I am curious as to your thoughts on that.

You seem to be getting exceptional efficiency.  I know the 6 speed Allison has a lot to do with that but it can't be the entire answer.  For those that don't know, and I do barely, you are in the business of rebuilding, designing and specing DD engines for all applications on land and sea.  You once told me that you could get some hellacious power from a two stroke but the problem was cooling it.  Boat motors have that cooling problem resolved, and as you pointed out, those 900 HP(?) tank motors had radiators that were 9 X 5 feet and were 20 core or so and I am making those dimensions up for the point.

I know you consult and you are paid for that service and I hope you are doing well in that regard.  An awful lot of this seems to be mix and match parts from all over and mainly from DD's tournament assortment of "stuff".  Can you share some of the info on what you do to make 550HP and get that kind of efficiency from an 8V92 without selling yourself out?

Seems sad to me that DD has that DDEC so locked up as to make it adjust proof.  What DDEC do you use and what injector model.  Is there a way around the constricting and inflexible DDEC programing?

Thanks,

John 


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Don Fairchild on January 15, 2011, 01:35:56 PM
John, I run a CCTS liner that is highly modified from stock. They have liner ports that are angled in and tilted over at precise points to facilitate air movement. I run a stock 450 hp DDC injector that I had a co. Change tips from a 9-0058 to a 9-0062 and up the pop pressure. I run a stock DDEC III  ( parlor coach) program set at 475hp. I set my injectors at 1.484 ( stock is 1.520 valves at .014 and Jake's at .057 I will also tell you that when the heads were rebuilt I shimmed the valve springs to proper height and pressures.

On the engine dyno this combination shows 550HP at 1800rpm and 1550 ftlbstq at 1400rpm

We have long rod short piston combonation we are playing with that in early tests shows over 1700 ftlbs tq at 1400rpm and 600hp at 1750rpm. This is in an mui engine. we will be putting together a DDEC some time this summer to see how it will do.

As to some of you other questions. There are way around DDEC programing but it is all done after market.
Big Jim Done has a 4-71T CAC DDEC that he has mounted midship in a Toyota tuck. He runs at Bonnivile salt flats. It is putting out close to 600hp and turns over 3000 rpm.

I like the air to air cooling on a two-stroke engine. It has the same effect as on a four stroke.  As to the marine engines we are approved up to 700hp with the 12V71TI engines and you are correct with ocean as a radiator using With keel cooling and raw water intercoolers you can really put some hp into these engines with wonderful results.

Hope this answers you questions.

Don


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: uncle ned on January 15, 2011, 01:50:56 PM



I saw a set of Dons liners and pistons at BK's several years ago.  I have never seen better machine work on any engine part. Just wish I had met Don before I replaced my liners and pistons on my 6v.

uncle ned

PS he gave several ideas on a air to air cooler for "HUGGY" that is in the works. gathering up parts for the job.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: belfert on January 15, 2011, 04:10:19 PM
The EPA is the main reason engine computers are locked down.  If the computer is programmed differently it might not pass pollution requirements anymore.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: JohnEd on January 15, 2011, 04:20:39 PM
I run a CCTS liner that is highly modified from stock.

Do you run the CCTS, and I am going to take a WAG and assume that that isn't a DD part, because it is easier to mod?

They have liner ports that are angled in and tilted over at precise points to facilitate air movement.


Did you get blank liners and "install" your own port dimensions and orientation?  Shades of my 2 cycle dirt bike days our "special" transfer port mods.  And Holy crap did we get more power.


 I run a stock 450 hp DDC injector that I had a co. Change tips from a 9-0058 to a 9-0062


The injectors I have seen have a ceramic head that has the hole shaped to shape the pattern for best atomization.  Am I right in assuming that the 58 and 62 numbers relate to the jet diameter?

up the pop pressure.

Is this the fuel pressure in the rail?  I didn't ask the pressure cause I think that might be classified.

I run a stock DDEC III  ( parlor coach) program set at 475hp.

So there is no mod to the DDEC?

I set my injectors at 1.484 ( stock is 1.520

Showing my ignorance:  I thought only the MUII had a cam pushing on the injector.  In that case reducing the gap would increase the duration of the open period and dump more fuel.  So in the DDEC III the same theory applies and there is a similar adjustment?  I did admit to being stupid on this topic.

valves at .014 and Jake's at .057

I ran my valves ad a reduced gap to max the air flow and I guess you have the same motive.  In readings here I have gathered that the Jake is very sensitive to "gap" and will fall off dramatically if the gap is to large.

I will also tell you that when the heads were rebuilt I shimmed the valve springs to proper height and pressures.

Maybe that was a test?  Shimming the springs won't change the valve height as the shims I have seen go under the spring between the head and spring.  I guess the top of the spring would be altered if the shim was installed between the spring retainer and the top of the spring but putting it there would add to the valve mass(effective) and promote came wear and yield nothing in valve lift..  I must be missing something.  At any rate you are getting in top what I call "blueprinting" the head and changing the geometry.  I also had to test for spring bind after shimming but I eventually went with brand new springs and changed them out to get a hand select match across the head.  Do you also check the valves for equal and proper lift after a micro check of the cam?  Do you do a three angle grind on the valve seat or do you make more passes?  Do you port or polish the heads or pistons?

We have long rod short piston combination we are playing with that in early tests shows over 1700 ftlbs tq at 1400rpm and 600hp at 1750rpm.

That sounds like you are changing the compression ratio.  I am clueless as to all the details and reasons for it but I recall people that upgraded to a turbo installed "two piece pistons" and I think that was for better piston cooling.  You don't sound like you are doing that and I wonder about all the "stuff" I have read over the years.  Nice HP numbers, by the way.

As to some of you other questions. There are way around DDEC programing but it is all done after market.
Big Jim Done has a 4-71T CAC DDEC that he has mounted midship in a Toyota tuck. He runs at Bonnivile salt flats. It is putting out close to 600hp and turns over 3000 rpm.

I like the air to air cooling on a two-stroke engine. It has the same effect as on a four stroke. 

I follow that.  I was talking about having the air to air after the turbo...as usual, and keeping the water to air under the blower to help get rid of the heat generated by the blower.  I read a long time ago that the water to air stock after cooler was "very" restrictive and you got a power boost from deleting the thing.  I didn't believe that but I sure can't do much but ask questions in this arena.


 As to the marine engines we are approved up to 700hp with the 12V71TI engines and you are correct with ocean as a radiator using With keel cooling and raw water intercoolers you can really put some hp into these engines with wonderful results.

Hope this answers you questions.



Even if I could fully comprehend all your answers I don't think it is possible to answer all the questions.  Each answer begets two more questions and "begets" indicates how old that wisdom truly is.

Thank you for the kindness you have shown in answering, Don.  I will make every effort to visit your shop when I next go south.  Don't worry, you have a LOT of time for prep or evasion.

John


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: JohnEd on January 15, 2011, 04:24:33 PM
Brian,

I agree with you but I also think DDEC predates EPA involvement with D engines.  No?  Today?  You must be right.  Then again, we seem to be able to get the Cummins EMS changed to our liking.  I don't know.  I only spot these questions and I hope a smart person will clue me in.

Thanks Brian,

John


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: belfert on January 15, 2011, 04:51:55 PM
I've read a lot of things on various places on the Internet about Detroit dealers often not wanting to mess around with increased power on DDEC engines due to the EPA.  I read a post over on a RTS forum about someone who wanted more power on a 6V92 DDEC and the Detroit dealer would have had to install a ton of EPA updates plus a new DDEC!  (I'm certain someone could dial up the power on a 6V92 without all that crap!)

Cummins will probably increase the HP level on an electronic engine, but probably not to a setting that wasn't EPA approved.  An authorized Cummins dealer is probably not going to install a marine or off road program in an on highway engine.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: loosenut on January 15, 2011, 05:40:07 PM
Leaving Arcadia my little bus got 7.2 mpg.  That included towing a 3400 lb car, a lot of Webasto action supplemented by some high idling and driving as fast as I was comfortable.  I froze across the south.

Those numbers come to you curteousy of Sean.  I talked to him at Arcadia.  He was surprised, to say the least, when I told him I was unsure of my MPG.  I never filled as I didn't want to carry the extra weight. 

To make a short story even longer, you know those looks you get when somebody suspects you're the village idiot, well I got one of those.  So I filled the tank up to the top for the last 3.000 miles. 

Does carrying around an extra 75-100 gallons hurt mileage?  Anecdotally I felt I got better MPG when I kept the tank under a 1/2 when fueling.


Mike


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: luvrbus on January 15, 2011, 06:13:23 PM
Don't think for a minute your going to get what ever you want from Cummins either on their EPA engines they have a set range for the engines also


good luck


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: JohnEd on January 15, 2011, 10:33:07 PM
Clifford,

There is a place back in Pa. that makes EMS and reprograms those in use.  I feel certain you know the outfit.  I first heard about them cause they were involved with making Cummins that put out stagering power.  Reading about that I learned that Cummins would "update" software to get you the max that a particular engine could produce.  That was before the EPA started reging the D trucks.  There didn't seem to be any concern for anything back then for anything but the longevity of the engine.  Even today, I think those "non smog" engines could have their power upped and you would not run afoul of the Gummint.   DD, to the contrary, refused to change anything, power or not, and if you need a new EMS programmed for your engine it cost you  dearly....even though you were not deviating from the original purchase program and power settings.  I am not saying that they have no rhyme nor reason, only that I don't get it.  And I am curious.  Cummins, on the same generation engines, was more amicable, or so it seems to a green horn like me.

As I dug into that Cummins power upgrade stuff I got an awakening.  Those guys were saying up front that the max power that they got you was only good for short duration applications.  They stated that application of full throttle would end up melting your  pistons or worse.  Three cheers for truth in advertising and transparency.  Being able to lunch your engine with your right foot?  I would never make it......I have little self control.

John



Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: Ed Hackenbruch on January 16, 2011, 06:49:19 AM
Mike, sure less weight will help fuel mileage. But not having a full tank when sitting for any length of time will lead to a condensation/algae problem sooner or later.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: luvrbus on January 16, 2011, 07:45:15 AM
John, you can do the same with Cat or Detroit but you use a off road ECM,I have a friend running his C-15 at 750 hp using the marine ECM lots of ways to do it, but none of the guys are going outside the limits of EPA CAT, Cummins,Detrot, Volvo and M/B none will do it for highway use.
FWIW Davenport can change the HP on his 14L series 60 driving down the road he goes from 515 to 625 with the push of key on his laptop ways to do just have to be smart enough lol  

 



good luck


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: belfert on January 16, 2011, 12:59:28 PM
Even on a pickup truck with a power boost box you can fry a stock engine on the highest settings.  An EGT gauge is pretty much a requirement when adding power to a diesel engine.  In the pickup truck world guys will spend a lot of money on air intakes, turbos, exhausts, and the like to cool the engine.


Title: Re: mpg to Florida
Post by: buswarrior on January 17, 2011, 12:46:57 PM
There have been subtle EPA involvement in diesel exhaust for a longer time than the dramatic increases of 2003/2007/2010.

For instance, the 1998 engines had something slightly different than the 1997 engines.

Back sometime, most all of the engine manufacturers were accused and proven by the EPA of embedding monkey business in the computers so they ran clean under testing and then another, more polluting way, in real world conditions.

The punishment had something to do with accelerating the dates for when they had to comply with the next level?

Who remembers the details and the chronology of the limits better than I do?

happy coaching!
buswarrior