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Title: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Charles in SC on October 02, 2011, 06:55:21 PM
I noticed that my Wal Mart has changed over to biodiesel. The sign says that it may have from 5 to 20 percent bio in it. Is this stuff ok in my bus. I have a 69 GMC with an 8v-71 Detroit. What are the pros and cons?
Thanks!


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Ray D on October 02, 2011, 07:56:04 PM
If it works as well as it does in gasoline, you will loose 1% efficiency for every 1% of bio in the fuel.  I was back home in the Midwest and there is a big bio plant there, I had to use my Dad's car, so I thought I would put some gas in without him knowing, he always wants to buy everything.  After I got home, we went for a ride and the car kept dying before we got out of the driveway; he said, you put gas in didn't you and I bet it was bio, I did not pay attention, not all cars take it this hard though, but  that is why it is offered both with and without.  My cousin is a big wig in the bio facility and so I talked to him about this and he said exactly as my first sentence reads.  It does not matter though, they are expanding at a rate which you won't believe, gov. even imported a German company to make the bacteria on site.  Farmers are happy though, big grain prices, which go right up to higher food prices.
Ray D


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: white-eagle on October 02, 2011, 08:05:38 PM
i just filled up with $430 worth of biodiesel at $3.62/gal.  it adds to the lubricity better than any additive, makes your engine run cleaner and in my case, seems to make the engine run better.  i even think i get better fuel mileage.

there is no disadvantage to biodiesel.  imho. 
disclaimer: i'm not a mechanic, i've just read some stuff that i hope is true.  my experience has all been good in my 8v92T.


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: mugsytrpt on October 02, 2011, 08:06:36 PM
Wow...I did not buy my bus for its great fuel mileage.  However, I do not want to see it go down.  Good luck.  It should not hurt your engine but I have no idea about efficiency.



Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: mugsytrpt on October 02, 2011, 08:08:31 PM
Tom,

Did you buy it because you wanted Bio.?  Price looks about the same as diesel.


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: white-eagle on October 02, 2011, 08:13:46 PM
Mugsy, i did.  i wanted the bio.  i know it has better lubricity than this low sulphur stuff, and supposedly cleans the injectors, cylinders, etc.  my bus seems to like it.  i think i got 7mpg on the way to florida one year.  usually i'm only about 6.5.

i went slightly out of my way to go to a farmer's coop to get it.  i would always put bio in versus standard fuel if i could.  Everything i've read says it is better, not worse, than the low sulphur stuff.  i've got a report somewhere that says just using bio is better than adding any additive.

but remember my disclaimer.


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: mugsytrpt on October 02, 2011, 08:19:40 PM
Tom,

I do not know much about it.....I have been wondering.  There is a place I can get it close to where I live.  Not much diff. in price.  I know some who have used it but seem to have to change filters a little more.  Have you had to bother with that?


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: luvrbus on October 02, 2011, 08:37:39 PM
What I don't like about the Bio Fuel it is so inconsistent just like WM advertises 5 to 20 percent,I have had B20 checked before and it was 43 percent according to my wife's son in law at Ft Hood I bought it from Willies in Texas and my bus ran like crap for a 1000 miles. 

I thought surely they would have the problem solved by now but 5 to 20 percent is a quite a spread why don't they just say contains no more than 20% lol 

good luck


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: demodriver on October 02, 2011, 09:01:14 PM
I had to buy some for my equipment one time when off road wasnt available.  My equipment ran like crap and used alot more fuel. I will NOT buy it now.

just my .02

Eric


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: TomC on October 02, 2011, 09:29:38 PM
Got to watch out what you're talking about here-some are talking about ethanol (grain alcohol) that some are trying to replace gasoline with.  There is a definite drop in power and performance (somewhere along the lines of 15-20%) when using up to E85.  Use this on a gasoline engine not designed for it, and you'll have stalling, possible pinging, missing, etc-all sorts of fun stuff.  So much so-that's why you see Flex-fuel on the back of some cars that electronically adjust the engines tune, timing, fuel delivery when running on up to E85.

Running a Diesel engine on Biodiesel-up to B85 (85% veggie oil)-most Diesel engines should be able to run on this without much change in performance.  Rudolph Diesel invented his engine with the idea of running it on peanut oil.  There is a fuel station near me that sells B85 for $3.95 a gallon.  I'm going to try a couple of tanks in my Mercedes 300 turbo diesel and see what happens.  Running B15-B20 shouldn't hurt any Diesel engine-including the new smog engines.  Good Luck, TomC


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: wal1809 on October 03, 2011, 03:35:55 AM
If your running biod in any percent in an old bus, get ready as you might have to replace the original fuel lines.  They are rubber and biod love to eat rubber.  I knew I would have to replace mine when I converted to WVO.  I did not realize the fuel lines would be damaged as fast as they were.  It was less than a year I guess from the time I ran my first bio d in the main tank until failure on the fuel lines.  Somewhere in that year I started in with the wvo and that was it for the original fuel lines.  Sprung a leak and had to replace with Viton hose.


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: luvrbus on October 03, 2011, 05:16:25 AM
Rudolph Diesel"s engine was design to run on coal dust anyone up for that one lol  5 to 20 percent should work ok  
A friend of mine in Phoenix that owns a large truck line Swift is experimenting with running B50 in his local trucks Volvo is doing the testing the first engine was tore down at 250,000 miles showed no wear caused by the Bio diesel,next will be at 500,000,750,000. and a million miles these are D13 Volvo engines,  

fwiw did you guys know the DOE gave Valero 241 million of your tax dollars to develop Bio fuels from animal fat,wvo, and wmo, here people like Wayne and others are doing it for nothing this free fuel  from waste oil,vo and wvo will be short lived lol.

I was told by a friend of mine that lives in Switzerland you can buy B100 fuel there @ 9 bucks a gal,then I was told by our friends from Germany 5% is the max there  

good luck


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: white-eagle on October 03, 2011, 05:52:32 AM
i think we are talking about different bio at some points here.  ethanol isn't what i thought was in biodiesel.  i thought it was grain oil, not distilled.  e85 is alcohol and i understand might eat rubber.  i thought i was buying fuel oils made from corn and soybeans mixed with fuel oils made from petroleum.

they (farm co-op) explained to me that the % was blended at 5-20 in order to keep the price similar to regular diesel.  too much makes it too expensive.

Mugsy, i did not have a filter issue, but i think the explanation is that it does clean your engine up a little and that applies also to your tank.  so any gunk in the tank/lines/pump may wash off into the filter.  My bus is a 91 with an engine put in around 99, so not as dirty as some of the older buses.  also, i changed the filter every year, and i know some others that don't change until it plugs up which may not happen as often.

somebody enlighten me if i'm wrong.


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: luvrbus on October 03, 2011, 06:16:19 AM
You have it right Tom it is just a blend of diesel fuel and grain oils they are just not consistent with the blends yet that is why they post 5 to 20 percent they have no idea it is just a guess right now as it is done after the fuel is refined then it leaves the refinery  then grain oil is added.
The refineries don't blend the fuel they sell to others that do the blending at some other location we have one here that buys from Chevron blends the fuels and markets it to others mainly the Santa Fe in Needles Ca and they transport it to a refueling point in Barstow Ca

good luck    


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Bill in KS on October 03, 2011, 06:19:00 AM
BioD gives better lubricity than any fuel additive on the market. BioD can get a little wild in the winter.  Diesel fuel has been loosing lubricity ( sulfur) and power ( sulfur ) since the clean air act of 1991.  Not to mention when the sulfur got removed the bugs began to grow.

None of us would consider running our engine with out oil but we all think it is ok to run our injection systems with no lube ( no sulfur)

There are a handful of good diesel fuel treatments out there and some are made in the USA using products grown in the USA.

The best part is : the 6 cents or so it costs per gallon to treat diesel you get a 5% gain in fuel milage.  PLUS you will dramitically reduce smoke and carbon desposits.

Bill in KS


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: rv_safetyman on October 03, 2011, 06:21:47 AM
Interesting thread.  We fueled up last week at a pump that had the 5-20% sticker on it.  Did not have a choice.  I was a bit fearful because of the gasoline/ethanol issues.  To my knowledge, this is the first time we filled up with a blended bio-diesel.

After reading this thread, I looked at my VMSpc data and we have used a bit less than 40 gallons since we filled up.  Our tank was a bit less than half full at the fill-up, so the bio fuel is diluted.  

We have a Fuel Pro 382 fuel filter so we can see when the filter needs changing (one of my best purchases for the bus).  I just went out and checked it and did not see any significant change in the fuel level (a measure of used filter capacity).

I did not notice any change in performance or fuel mileage.

I am not worried about my fuel lines, as I ran DOT tubing and Aeorquip AQP hose when I re-plumbed the fuel system.

If I get a chance, I will use bio-blended on my next fill-up and see if the filter capacity gets used up quicker.

The one issue that I am concerned about is gelling.  There were some horror stories a year or two ago about school bus fleets that could not start when the weather turned cold.  Many of the farmers in my wife's home town had problems.

Jim


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: luvrbus on October 03, 2011, 06:33:22 AM
I don't buy into the new fuel and the loose of lubricity of the low sulfur fuel stuck injectors on the old 2 strokes are just about a thing of the past very,very seldom does that happen now bet I have only had one here in the since 2008 it was a a common thing in the past with the old fuel not any longer with the 15 or less PPM fuel  

good luck


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Bill in KS on October 03, 2011, 06:47:14 AM
Just a little more food for thought. 

(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g456/mechanix1/img049.jpg)


thxs
Bill in KS


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: TomC on October 03, 2011, 07:51:15 AM
The interesting thing about the new ultra low sulfur Diesel (15 ppm) is that the engines that need to run that fuel have the tightest, highest fuel injection pressures ever.  Detroit Diesel's DD engines run 20,000lb of rail pressure and then the individual fuel injectors are HEUI injectors running off the high pressure fuel to bump the tip pressure up to 32,000lbs.  If Detroit thought that the fuel wasn't sufficient to lubricate the injectors, believe me they would be the first to acknowledge the problem and insist on using fuel additive (DD fuel injectors are $775.00 ea exchange!).  While it is true that fuel additive will boost performance a bit, and most importantly disperse water during winter, needing to add more lubrication is just not needed.  As compared to the new Detroit DD13, DD15, DD16, our fuel injectors are very loosy goosy with plenty of clearance to be lubricated by the new Diesel Fuels. Good Luck, TomC


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: TomC on October 03, 2011, 08:12:17 AM
Some interesting reading about how Rudolph Diesel envisioned using Coal tar to power his engine, but the technology wasn't there yet-hence his engines ran on vegetable oil.  Even then, Diesel didn't like the petroleum industry-making an engine that ran on vegetable oils.  Good Luck, TomC
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1435.htm (http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1435.htm)


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on October 03, 2011, 09:52:40 AM
Bill in KC,, needs to do some more reading. Sulphur has NEVER, provided, or added to, the lubricity in diesel fuel.. The reason todays lubricity is low is due to the METHOD used to remove it.. The METHOD is what removes the lubricity, and therfore has to added later down the line.>>Dan


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Bill in KS on October 03, 2011, 10:16:37 AM
I've attached a photo showing straight from the pump diesel burnt and the other tube is straight from the pump diesel that has been treated and burnt. 

Why would you want the byproducts ( carbon / nitric acid)  in your motor / exhaust when you can eliminate it / gain MPG and keep your motor &  oil much cleaner. 


(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g456/mechanix1/2011-10-03115631.jpg)

thxs
Bill in KS


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Bill in KS on October 03, 2011, 10:22:20 AM
Interesting article concerning sulfur in diesel fuel:
http://www.tdi-issues.com/problems-tac69/lubricity-of-ulsd-diesel-gap168.htm (http://www.tdi-issues.com/problems-tac69/lubricity-of-ulsd-diesel-gap168.htm)

Another interesting article:
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Lubricity.PDF (http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Lubricity.PDF)

thanks
Bill in KS


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: luvrbus on October 03, 2011, 10:32:47 AM
Me I am going to set back and wait till all the commercial air line start using the Bio fuels if the jets don't fall from the sky maybe.

Jim I would be terrified of Bio where you live that why all the new trucks have a heater that run the Bio in cold weather climates here in AZ you cannot buy it after Dec 1 till Mar 30 and we aren't even cold except the mornings

good luck


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Busted Knuckle on October 03, 2011, 10:39:59 AM
Me I am going to set back and wait till all the commercial air line start using the Bio fuels if the jets don't fall from the sky maybe

good luck

I like that one Clifford! Please just do us a favor and keep a close watch out for us as to who start using it first so we can hold off flying with them until it's proven safe! ;)
;D  BK  ;D


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Bill in KS on October 03, 2011, 10:46:38 AM
Utahclaimjumper / Dan  : I stand corrected.  I will use the words : aromatic compounds .  :)


Thanks
Bill in KS



Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: wal1809 on October 03, 2011, 12:49:44 PM
You mean like this jet?

http://www.gizmag.com/go/8204/ (http://www.gizmag.com/go/8204/)


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: luvrbus on October 03, 2011, 02:13:04 PM
Nope Wayne I talking about a real plane carrying 300 or 400 people the engine in that plane will burn anything combustible and a lot of it  lol

good luck  


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: gus on October 03, 2011, 03:13:23 PM
Because fuel lines fail a short time after beginning to use biodiesel is not proof that BD caused the problem. The fuel lines could have been on the road to failure BD or not. You will never know, this is not exactly good science!!

That is kind of like saying your cold got better because you took some kind of cold medicine when it probably would have gotten better on its own anyway!! You will never know for sure!!

I have no doubt that ethanol is a poor fuel but I've seen nothing yet convincing me that BD causes any problems.


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Charles in SC on October 03, 2011, 06:51:56 PM
I started this thread because I read several years ago on this forum that bio was fine in the old Detroits but that rubber parts could fail such as fuel lines, seals, o-rings etc. It seems that the world has not ended yet and most of the responders so far are concerned about their mileage rather than their rubber parts. I replaced my fuel lines when I got my bus with new Aeroquip lines and I hope these are ok with the bio because pure diesel is getting harder and harder in my area. I have a new VW Jetta TDI and VW says not to use bio because there is no way to know what the bio part of the fuel is from, some are ok and some maybe not. Lets see 1 percent of 7 mpg is .07 mpg. I am not sure I can measure that.


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: Bill B /bus on October 03, 2011, 07:16:05 PM
Again VW TDI had to use B5 in NJ. Fuel mileage was about the same. However the engine was quieter at idle. Just some info for the digester.

Bill


Title: Re: Wal Mart biodiesel
Post by: rv_safetyman on October 03, 2011, 07:24:25 PM
Clifford, I agree, I would not want the bio-diesel in CO in the winter.  My hope is to one more fill with the 5-20% stuff to play with and then get the bus loaded up with pure diesel for last leg of the trip - for winter.  Even that is not all that good, since our diesel in CO in the winter is blended #1 and #2. 

We would probably not be in too bad of shape, as the tank in the Eagle has a lot of exposure to the last bay and our bays are kept above 40* in the winter for water system protection.

Jim