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Title: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: travlinman on October 28, 2012, 12:07:43 PM
Hey Guys

Thought I would start a new thread as I have more questions. So, I've got the starter wiring disconnected and have tested the top two nuts. Those I can break loose, it is the bottom one that is giving me grief. I cannot get a wrench (15/16) or a socket (15/16 12 point) on the bolt. Is there a tool that would work better. Check out the photo......the clearance on the bottom is especially tight.

Cheers

TM


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: sledhead on October 28, 2012, 12:12:01 PM
As a last resort you can use a hammer and a chisel and replace the nut with new.works every time if you can get to it       dave


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: DMoedave on October 28, 2012, 12:34:29 PM
Hard  to tell from the picture but maybe you can grind the outer part of a socket to clear. for sure there are 06 folks with your answer. If something is tight it can take a impact if you will to break it loose. If you can get a hammer and chisel in there  that will work. sometimes after i get a ridge with the chisel i will switch to a good punch and try and get some movement. Good luck


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on October 28, 2012, 12:50:16 PM
 He should be able to get a 15/16 box end on that one that is why they make a "C" starter wrench 

good luck


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on October 28, 2012, 02:08:21 PM
 Use a "crows foot" on the end of a ratchet & extension,, works every time.>>>Dan


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: eagle19952 on October 28, 2012, 04:12:23 PM
when you get it out,these are nice to have
http://www.hillcofasteners.com/prod/12-Point-USS-Flange-Bolt-Plain-Steel---58-11x2__DB580C200.aspx (http://www.hillcofasteners.com/prod/12-Point-USS-Flange-Bolt-Plain-Steel---58-11x2__DB580C200.aspx)

(http://www.hillcofasteners.com/Images/parts/12PointFlangeBolt-m.jpg)


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: travlinman on October 28, 2012, 06:00:54 PM
Awesome suggestions everyone, Thanks!

Right now I am in search of the elusive 15/16 crowfoot here in the eastern sierra. I'll be burning up the cell phone trying to find one tomorrow, I had no luck on friday trying to find one. We got it to move today with a socket, which is good, but now it is in a hopeless posisition to get the socket or a box end wrench on. Hopefully the "works every time" Happens for me. I'll save the chisel method for the last try.

Also, looks like I need to learn more about those bolts.

Eagle - I take it that they would replace the studs?

The adventure continues!

TM



Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: B_K on October 28, 2012, 06:08:13 PM
Awesome suggestions everyone, Thanks!

Right now I am in search of the elusive 15/16 crowfoot here in the eastern sierra. I'll be burning up the cell phone trying to find one tomorrow, I had no luck on friday trying to find one. We got it to move today with a socket, which is good, but now it is in a hopeless posisition to get the socket or a box end wrench on. Hopefully the "works every time" Happens for me. I'll save the chisel method for the last try.

Also, looks like I need to learn more about those bolts.

Eagle - I take it that they would replace the studs?


The adventure continues!

TM

Should be able to get that crows foot at NAPA or any other self respecting parts house. I was looking for a (yup you guessed it) a while back and ended up buying 2 sets from NAPA a small size set and a large size set. And guess what? I now have 2 15/16 size crowsfeet as both sets had one!

YES (and very handy too!)
;D  BK  ;D


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on October 28, 2012, 06:16:09 PM
Keep the studs they help, most starters just have the flange 12 point on the top a 5/8 head withlout the studs the gasket would be a problem staying in place during install fwiw plus they guide that heavy sucker in place 


Always keep the easy bolt to remove in place till you remove the other 2  

good luck


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: chessie4905 on October 28, 2012, 06:35:11 PM
I would probably try a 3/8 drive 15/16 socket, short 12 point with a 2 inch extension with a long handle 3/8th flex head ratchet.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: travlinman on October 28, 2012, 06:59:25 PM
BK - Napa is the only good parts place here in Bishop and the have to order the 15/16 in. Nice big wall of tools but not the one I need. We were in there Friday and were told it would not be in till Tuesday so I thought I would try everything else first. I am motivated to get that thing on the ground!

Clifford - For now I will be keeping the studs, I have enough projects looming! Plus I can see how it would be a help to have a guide for install and removal.

Chessie - That set up is what moved the bolt about a 1/4 turn today. Then the socket spit off and there is no getting it back on! The edge of the nut is right against the engine.

TM


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: eagle19952 on October 28, 2012, 07:19:08 PM
i would move the stud...or learn to enjoy your dillema.that nut is not going to be any easier to tighten...unless you can roll the starter.

or get two longer 5/8 bolts and cut the heads off,grind a bit of taper on them and you have temporary guide studs.they will hold the gasket too.
i probably have had 25lbs of guide studs/bolts....JMW...Just my way.
enjoy.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: eagle19952 on October 28, 2012, 07:24:01 PM
PS

Eagle - I take it that they would replace the studs?

No just the one with the non christian nut...the one i am sure you have named.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: baker4106 on October 28, 2012, 07:29:22 PM
I have never had a problem removing that bolt with a 15/16 12 point socket and a long extension so I can work thru the opening in the bulkhead.   I have removed mine two times including just two months ago.   I use a 1/2 inch drive and a long ratchet.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on October 28, 2012, 07:32:21 PM
I guess being on the side of the road without the right tools it would be tough but that is one of the easier to remove on that starter for me anyway


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: eagle19952 on October 28, 2012, 07:52:25 PM
if it moved at all a 15/16 wobbly socket with 3/8 drive would get it out..
in my career the arctic makes lots of decisions for you...if you had 45 belly dumps at 25 below zero waiting on a starter....you might be looking for a new job. So you'd figger out any way to make that not happen twice.
having said that ive never touched a gm coach but i have named a lot of delco MT starters,which by my eyes, from the pics, that one may be clocked wrong.
if you have 3 studs you have something i have never dealt with.2 yes 3 no.
bought a lot of sneakers for my kids nursing these tho
(http://alaskaheavyhaul.com/images/veh-bellydump600a.jpg)


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: travlinman on October 28, 2012, 07:57:29 PM
Baker - I would be very interested to know what type of nut you have on yours. It does seem that it should not be this hard. I'm not kidding when I say the socket will not go on to the nut as the space between the engine and the nut is just to small. I've tried a 3/8 and 1/2 drive 12 point craftsman socket.

Clifford - Fortunately we are not on the side of the road, camped in a great spot really.

TM


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Rick 74 MC-8 on October 28, 2012, 08:15:46 PM
With the other bolts loose could a starter have shifted a little putting it up against that nut
          u

            Rick 74 MC-8


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: fortyniner on October 28, 2012, 08:17:27 PM
I guess your going in from top access hole. When I did mine I ground as much of  the shoulder off a 3/8 drive socket as possible. Then used a long extension.  12 point for reinstall.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: eagle19952 on October 28, 2012, 08:35:17 PM
why a person would not correct a situation that caused all this grinding and wobbling and heartache is beyond me. :-[
good luck.
see ya.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: eagle19952 on October 28, 2012, 08:38:07 PM
I guess your going in from top access hole. When I did mine I ground as much of  the shoulder off a 3/8 drive socket as possible. Then used a long extension.  12 point for reinstall.would that be a 12 point bolt....
why a person would not correct a situation that caused all this grinding and wobbling and heartache is beyond me. :-[
good luck.
see ya.



Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on October 28, 2012, 08:51:21 PM
It is not that big of deal with the right stuff the hard part is getting it out and back in it's not one of favorite jobs replacing a starter on a GM but even for this old guy 1 to 2 hrs tops you really appreciate changing starters on a Eagle,Prevost or MCI after a GM lol Steve will get it done

good lck


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Dave5Cs on October 28, 2012, 09:12:37 PM
there is always a Torch  to heat the tool and bend it to work. done that many times, Ford distributor brings back memories. I also cut nuts with a dremel and cutting wheels when needed.

Dave5cs


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: travlinman on October 28, 2012, 09:54:15 PM
It is not that big of deal with the right stuff the hard part is getting it out and back in it's not one of favorite jobs replacing a starter on a GM but even for this old guy 1 to 2 hrs tops you really appreciate changing starters on a Eagle,Prevost or MCI after a GM lol Steve will get it done

good lck

Well when I eventually find my Eagle at least I won't have this to deal with!

Cheers

TM


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Fred Mc on October 29, 2012, 09:16:01 PM
I have a 4106 and have had the starter out a number of times over the years. I took a 15/16 box end and ground enough off so it would fit. I "suspect" a snap on wrench wouldn't need grinding but I generally can't afford  snap on so my tools aren't as "fine" as snap on. I have always replaced the starter from the top. Someone on here a while back suggested when removing and re-installing the starter on a 4106 , tie a rope around the starter. It helps a lot.

Good luck

Fred


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Len Silva on October 30, 2012, 05:17:44 AM
It only took me about ten minutes to pull the starter on my 4104 ::)


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on October 31, 2012, 05:09:56 PM
Have we gotten the starter off yet Steve ?


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Lin on October 31, 2012, 05:20:59 PM
When I had to remove my starter, it was quite difficult.  A Bakersfield mechanic that shall remain unnamed was a much stronger torquer than I was an untorquer.  One of the bolts seemed unmovable.  In desperation, I attached a cheating bar to my wrench, put as much pressure on it as I could, and locked it in place that way.  The hope was that the sustained pressure might loosen the bolt overnight.  The next day, I was able to remove the bolt with a hefty struggle.  I do not really know if the strategy worked, I was stronger the next day, or I just got lucky.  However, if ever in that situation again, I would give it another try.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: chessie4905 on November 01, 2012, 08:47:23 AM
you could try a 3/8 drive 6 point socket and grind some taper on the end of it so it will wedge in there further. Just figure some way to get it driven on far enough that it won't "spit off". A short wobble extension added might help to avoid side force on socket. If that fails, a dremel with a tiny carbide bit might help make more clearance. Grind on the nut only, as the starter looks to have a thin threaded boss in that area. Get a 12 point nut to replace it once it is off, or a 12 point bolt.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: travlinman on November 01, 2012, 09:48:35 AM
Starter Update-

So after wrestling with that nut all day Saturday and Sunday I had to give up on Monday, so I started calling for some help. First I went to the local diesel shop "Britt's Diesel" And they were super cool. Britt let me borrow two different types of crows feet. Back up to the bus I went and we tried both tools to no avail. Next we called our mechanic in Eugene and he wanted to start from the beginning with diagnosis. Why not I said that thing is not coming off, this is where we get really lucky. We tested the exciter wire, that was good and then we bypassed the solenoid and and hooked the hot cable directly to the starter, using the disconnect as a switch. And, yes the starter did spin! When I was jumping it before I must have connected the cable to the wrong side, live and learn! So, Monday afternoon I went out in search of a new solenoid and exhaust manifold gaskets. Britt's computer showed no solenoid but he took the time to go through his parts inventory and I got lucky again. In the back of the room, on a top shelf was a 12 volt solenoid. Sweet ! Had gaskets as well so I was set. Well or so I thought, I had decided to replace one of my ground cables as it was a bit suspect. I went to NAPA got cable and ends and they can't find their crimper! After this I decided to go climbing till they could get a new one in. Yesterday they made up my cable and I bolted everything in place. The starter turns the motor, now I just need to secure wiring and air lines and hopefully it will fire up!

Thanks to everyone who posted here, Britt at Britts Diesel, and John at Midlane.

Cheers

TM

PS I think I am going to have a nut removal contest at the NRG!


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Van on November 01, 2012, 10:18:55 AM
Hi Steve, had the same issue with the starter in our 15, couldn't understand it, cables all nice and clean (terminals) still a no go. It wasn't till I started rechecking the +/- cables by Physically twisting them near the terminals that I heard a crunchy sound, that I discovered and over heated chassis ground, after cutting open the cable most of the wire fell out like powder. Luckily for me, there was plenty of cable left after cutting the bad stuff off. Made new terminal ends for it out of 1" copper pipe, and Viola! back in buisness! Best of luck to ya and hope you guys make it out here for the 10th. Be safe out there ;) :)

   Van 


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on November 01, 2012, 10:28:15 AM
Glad you are up and running Steve fwiw I never thought you had a starter problem most of the time a starter will give a tell tale warning in advance before giving up


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: fortyniner on November 01, 2012, 06:45:53 PM
Hey Steve, now that you can move the  bus you might want to back up on ramps and swap out and loosen that nut or even replace it with a 12 point bolt. Someday you may have to pull that thing out from the top in the middle of nowhere.

-Tom P.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: bobofthenorth on November 01, 2012, 07:13:30 PM
Hey Steve, now that you can move the  bus you might want to back up on ramps and swap out and loosen that nut or even replace it with a 12 point bolt. Someday you may have to pull that thing out from the top in the middle of nowhere. 

What he said X 2


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: eagle19952 on November 01, 2012, 08:43:57 PM
what ?.......12 point bolt.... :o ??? :o ??? :o

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24624.msg269940#msg269940 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24624.msg269940#msg269940)


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: buswarrior on November 01, 2012, 08:50:03 PM
yes, what they said X 3.

the evil bus spirits will track you down.

Trouble you know about always comes back to get you.

There is no stress to working on a tricky fastener on a working part at home or in friendly waters.

Quite the opposite when you are stuck someplace with an overly zealous enforcement officer demanding you move now or else...!

happy coaching!
buswarrior


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: travlinman on November 01, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
Hey Guys that for the feedback,

Considering that we spend most of our time camped in the middle of nowhere it is my plan to pull that nut off as soon as I can. Right now I'm not quite sure how I will get off short of cutting it. That I am very reluctant to do while we are on the road. So,  it works now and I also have a few other more pressing maintenance needs. So the starter will have to wait, I am lining up some shop time for December so hopefully I can do it inside. That would be much more pleasant for sure.

I know you guys have some ideas on how to get that thing off so post up. Remember that I have tried standard sockets and wrenches and that is not happening for sure!

Hope to see a few of you in Vegas!

TM


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Boomer on November 01, 2012, 09:52:09 PM
Steve, didn't we talk about taking the solinoid apart first, lol?  If you get around to taking the nut off eventually (either by chisiling, cutting, or whatever) you could replace the stud with a good quality allen head bolt.  Tighten and lock tight the hell out of it.  Should have plenty of clearance then.  Good luck.


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on November 02, 2012, 05:23:44 AM
If he removes that stud and replaces it with a bolt he will have oil leaks as that is a wet flywheel on 8v71 and v730,his rear motor mounts maybe causing his clearance problems 

Me I just open the ac door on the drivers side and use a long extension and 15/16th his problem may also be someone has rotated the solenoid to much to clear the manifold that nut is not hard to remove somebody tighten it lol so it will come back off 


good luck


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: 06 Bill on November 02, 2012, 05:50:18 AM
 As Luvrbus says studs only, btdt had leaks with bolts. Sealed and replace studs all OK.   06 Bill


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: bevans6 on November 02, 2012, 05:56:08 AM
If reduced head diameter and 12 point for wrench clocking is an issue, you can get 12 point head reduced diameter nuts to go onto studs.  Self-locking or not, with large diameter base so you don't need a washer under.

Brian



Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on November 02, 2012, 06:13:10 AM
They will leak I have seen and replace the bolts with studs where people have changed over to the DD star flanged starter bolts covered in gasket sealant or cooper washers trying to stop the leak but let him change it makes no difference to me 


good luck


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Rick 74 MC-8 on November 02, 2012, 08:44:55 AM
Put in a longer stud use a spacer before the nut



                           Rick 74 MC 8


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on November 02, 2012, 08:59:42 AM
You don't want longer studs for sure lol I am a big fan of the GM but the guys at the factory knew what they were doing 95% of the time


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: eagle19952 on November 02, 2012, 11:28:38 AM
Well I had no idea about the wet sump....making a socket similar to a fuel tube wrench might work....I still wonder if the starter is clocked proper or red loctite is in play here ?


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: travlinman on April 22, 2013, 02:43:12 PM
The last project I tackled this winter turned out to be simple in the end. Well with a few items that I don't carry in the bus that is!

I cut down and trimmed a 15/16 wrench and that pesky nut came right off.

Here are a couple of pics for those that may face the same problem in the future.

TM


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: Barn Owl on April 23, 2013, 07:05:13 PM
My experience from a few years ago:

Original post: 4106 starter swap; not all that bad (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4610.0)

Reading about 4106 starter swaps is like listening to women swap birthing horror stories. Each one has to one up the other and scare the devil out of those who havenít done it.

This is how I did mine:

1.   I securely chocked the wheels and blocked the bus up.
2.   I unhooked the batteries.
3.   Through the top access hole from the inside I removed the back top mounting nut. (The one closest to the engine block)
4.   Crawling under the bus I sat up in the hole that is located ahead of the engine bulkhead.
5.   Through the bulkhead cutout I removed the four bolts holding the engine breather on and placed the breather aside. Be sure to stuff a rag in the hole where the breather was on the side of the block.
6.   I removed all of the wires to the solenoid and the starter.
7.   I removed the bottom nut using a 15/16 boxed wrench cut down to an 8Ē length. (You could use a 15/16 socket if you have a wobble adapter)
8.   I then removed the last top nut and slid the starter out onto my lap. (Be careful it is heavy, but not unmanageable)
9.   Make sure the new starter is a 12v left hand starter. Check the starter mount to ensure it is the correct one. There are at least three types and the one you will need is the most uncommon. If you have your old one rebuilt it wonít be an issue, but I kept my old starter to use as a spare.
10.   If you have an automatic tranny you will need a gasket for the starter mount to bell-housing face.
11.   Installation is just reversing the above procedure.

Even though the rebuilt starterís mount looked identical to the one removed, there was enough variation in the casting that I couldnít get my wrench on the bottom mounting nut. I used a socket and managed to get enough bite to tighten it. If I had a wobble adapter I think it wouldnít be an issue. You could also grind the mount in that area (itís plenty thick) to give your wrench clearance room, if you remember to do it before you mount it.

My original starter solenoid was bad and that is the reason for the swap. I wasnít charged a core charge, so I am keeping the starter motor as a spare. I found that even some of the big starter rebuilders donít stock enough of the parts to rebuild a LH starter in one day, so having the spare will be nice. The solenoids are very common and inexpensive, so I donít feel a need to keep one of those on hand.

Conclusion: Itís not as bad as people make it out to be. Unless you are physically not strong enough, this is a DIY job.
 
I hope this might help the owner of a future 4106 starter swap..


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: TedsBUSted on April 24, 2013, 07:54:56 AM
Nice step-by-step, Barn Owl.


I'll add that most sockets wouldn't clear, but a Mac Tools  socket  would often allow straight-on access to 15/16" starter flange hardware. The Mac brand had a thin wall and a "step" to boot, which gave clearance.
Tool designs are in constant change, so maybe today's Mac doesn't fit. Also, maybe now another manufacturer builds a similar thin socket? So it's FWIW.

Ted


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: luvrbus on April 24, 2013, 08:11:10 AM
Still a lot easier to toss the 6 point nuts and replace those with the 12 point flange nuts for a buck each JMO then any 12 point socket will work


Title: Re: 4106 Starter Bolt Removal
Post by: TedsBUSted on April 24, 2013, 08:39:40 AM
Oh absolutely, go 12-point if possible.
"Ferry Screw" is another name for 12-point, for anyone who needs to hunt for them.