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Title: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana LOCKED DOWN 4 REVIEW!
Post by: technomadia on June 14, 2013, 07:04:35 PM
Hey All --

Here's what happened:

Climbing a pass on highway 212 in SE Montana, heading west from Broadus.

The engine performed great, as it has on this whole trip across country. I kept the RPM's up, and the temperature gauge barely started to move by the time we reached the top.

But as we started heading downhill - to my alarm the temperature gauge kept going up!  Within a minute, even though we were coasting, it was up to 205, and I put the engine in neutral to take all load off of it, and I started braking to pull off onto the shoulder.

As I was slowing down, the overheat light came on - and the engine died right as I got off the road.

I got out, and the coolant overflow was gushing coolant on the ground. No hoses appear burst.

We waited a while until the engine was cool, and eventually added 12 gallons of water to get the coolant level back up.  We were able to restart the engine, and move a few feet further off the road - but the engine had very little power.

We are stopped in a place 20 minutes from the nearest cell signal, so at the moment we are in the town of Broadus using the Internet to figure out what to do next.

Help, advice and connections appreciated.

We have Coachnet, and they can come tow us in the AM - but we need to know where to get them to tow us to.

Any bus nuts in Montana?

Any good mechanics in Billings, or anywhere else?

Any ideas what might have happened?  Overheating on a a downhill is new to me.

What is the right type of tow truck we should insist on to tow a 4106?

Feel free to call me at 408-667-9022 if you have any leads within the next hour (we will be heading back no cell of coverage).

Thanks in advance!!!

  - Chris (and Cherie) // www.technomadia.com (http://www.technomadia.com)


Title: Re: Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montanna
Post by: luvrbus on June 14, 2013, 07:17:19 PM
Bad deal when a GM does that you probably cracked the upper head or at the least blew a seal gasket between the head and block when a GM is low of water the top head is dry and will crack 

I can send you a head if needed but am not coming to Montana as well as I like both of you Check with the oil patch guys you will find a 2 stroke guy and if you need a head let me know 


I am real sorry to hear this any water coming from the drain tubes or exhaust manifold? 


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 14, 2013, 07:22:52 PM
Thanks for the reply, Luvrbus!

Once the coolant stopped boiling out the overflow, nothing else seemed to leak or drip once we refilled it.

The oil is reading low, but I think a large portion of that is from the bus tilting to the right from being inn the shoulder.

The oil doesn't look cloudy or watery.

Cheers,

  - Chris (and Cherie)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: wg4t50 on June 14, 2013, 07:24:46 PM
Im with luvrbus, also guess maybe thermostat closed, at top of mtn, and not able to cool it going down.  Sad event, I have never had that happen, so Im guessing. Why the low power ?
Good luck
Dave M


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: challenger440 on June 14, 2013, 07:32:03 PM
Sorry to hear of your troubles.  I'm 300 hundred miles from you so not much help.  The better news is that Billings is a good sized city.  Quite a bit of heavy industry.  If memory serves me there are several heavy equipment dealers between Billings and Laurel.  Cat dealers and such. Laurel has a large oil  refinery so I'm quessing someone in the area knows how to work on a DD.  I've used Grizzly Diesel here in Helena, maybe they can advise for Billings or even someone in Broadus (farmers).  406-449-1269 in Helena.  Also R & R Diesel might have some ideas. 406-442-2662 in Helena.  Best of luck. John M.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: OneLapper on June 14, 2013, 07:33:28 PM
Was there any smoke from the exhaust after you restarted the engine?


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Jriddle on June 14, 2013, 07:36:42 PM
Eagle Andy is or was in Miles City North of you. He may know of Mechanic in his (your) area. I sure he has some connection to the OIL Patch and may know someone for you.

Good Luck John


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: wg4t50 on June 14, 2013, 07:37:21 PM
Google "Detroit Diesel Dealers MT"  I found a few all over the state, good Luck
Dave M


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 14, 2013, 07:38:01 PM
Was there any smoke from the exhaust after you restarted the engine?

Cherie noticed some black smoke when I started the engine and moved the bus.  We normally don't have any black smoke at all.

We only left the engine on long enough to get fully off the road.

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 14, 2013, 07:45:17 PM
Andy lives in Billings now his shop guy may know of someone,Chris you fry the GM engines and most of the time water will not show up in the oil fwiw Mike's aka Red Ryder 8v71 was well done I talking crispy here not a drop of water in the oil check the drain tubes if they are clear with no water you are a lucky dude


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 14, 2013, 07:47:30 PM
Any contact info for Andy?

I think Billings will be the ideal place to get Coachnet to tow us - the question is where.

Oh - and any tips for towing a 4106 with minimal risk of damage?

Thanks all!

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 14, 2013, 08:01:46 PM
I PM you Andy's numbers his wife name is Eillen if one of the numbers is hers, tell coachnet to send a drop deck since you have a 730 transmission

good luck


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 14, 2013, 08:22:55 PM
Thanks all - we have made contact with Andy.



Thanks you all for your help and feedback / it is so comforting to know we are not completely alone on the side of the road.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 14, 2013, 08:52:11 PM
Andy is doing some research into options in Billings, and we have made contact with his garage in Miles City who says they will coach us through doing the repairs ourselves if needed (they have too much work in house right now).

We are heading back to the bus, will be out of touch. Will check back in at 9a MST when we return to town for a coordination call with Coachnet to figure out where we have them take us. They assure us our tech on call knows the type of equipment we need.

If anyone has ideas, leads on places to have the bus towed, etc - please post them. 

Thank you so much!


Title: Re: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Seangie on June 14, 2013, 09:16:25 PM
That's a heartbreaker and stressful as well.  Praying for you both.

-Sean

 www.herdofturtles.org  (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
1984 Eagle Model 10S


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: RJ on June 14, 2013, 11:21:14 PM
Oh dear. . .   :'(


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 15, 2013, 06:09:21 AM
They will be alright Andy found a shop for the repairs close and the guy works on buses a plus he has some used engines for parts in case they need a head


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 15, 2013, 07:26:32 AM
Good morning all - back in cell signal. If anyone has further throughs that could be of immediate help, let us know

Trying to decide between going into Billings or Andy's shop in Miles City where they may not have time to help us.

We have not yet been towed, and have a call with CoachNet in a bit to pick our path.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 15, 2013, 07:44:31 AM
So further replaying of the events last night - we might have a transmission problem. Our friend Sean told us the excess heat from the tranny exchanges into the engine, and could cause the overheating.

When going up the pass, Chris downshifted into 2nd, and I thought it sounded 'different'. More 'airy' than normal. When he crested the pass, he up shifted into 3rd and there was a bit of a lurch when he did. He now recalls noticing just a bit of heating (about 190 at this point)  The heating increased from there as we went down the hill.

Of course, Chris wouldn't listen to a girl about my concern of the tranny sounds. :)

Any thoughts if we might be on to something?

- Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: belfert on June 15, 2013, 07:48:08 AM
I don't know what you have talked to Coachnet about as far as towing, but they generally only tow to the nearest qualified shop.  My understanding is they usually pick the shop.  I would think they would tow you to another shop if the distance was about the same.  If you want to go to a shop that is further they might charge you the extra distance.

I hope this doesn't get too expensive for you.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: John316 on June 15, 2013, 07:51:31 AM
Sorry to hear about your troubles. If Clifford says it doesn't sound good....well, I extend my condolences.

If it was me, I would head for the bigger city. However, that would be different if you had another shop with the parts you might need, elsewhere. Otherwise, bigger the city, the better for me, when I am broken down.

I really do hope you don't have a tranny problem. I am NO transmission expert, but it seems to me that something else would happen if the tranny took a dive. Ours wouldn't shift at all when we lost it. It did do a strange downshift, then it was goodbye tranny. It didn't cause us to overheat or anything.

Thanks for keeping us updated.

John


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Ace on June 15, 2013, 07:51:55 AM
Now that the bus has had time to cool down, have you tried to start it and without putting it into any gear, tried revving it up and see if it accelerates? The low power problem could in fact be in the transmission making you think it is the motor! Try running it at idle and see if the temps go to normal without moving it! If the temps top out at normal than your motor may still be ok without major if any damage. If you try to move the bus, after normal temps and no leaks found, and you still feel a loss of power than I'd be looking at the trans. I take it its an automatic hence the funny sounds you heard. If it was a manual trans the funny sounds are usually from mis shifting and gears grinding.
From what I've read, sounds more like you lost a converter!


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 15, 2013, 07:53:08 AM
Unless Coachnet has changed with the new owners they would find a shop but it was up to you if you wanted to use the shop they will probably say Interstate Diesel $$$$$


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: belfert on June 15, 2013, 08:04:10 AM
Of course you aren't obligated to use the shop Coachnet chooses.  Coachnet or the tow company could charge you for extra miles if the shop you want to use is significantly further.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 15, 2013, 08:15:26 AM
 If 205 was the hottest it got,, then that's not particularly hot for the 8V71,, 230 is "snap crackel & pop" time. If the engine will run enough to get to operating temps, you could get better info on condition,,check trans oil, test for power and normal operation of engine and trans.>>>Dan ( If possible do all this before the tow)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 15, 2013, 08:21:12 AM
The shop Coachnet tracked down is in Sheridan, WY. Our two options so far are closer - so they said they are good with that.

Looks like Ipower in Billings can take us and let us live in the bus, and toss us some power. And of course, Andy is nearby.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 15, 2013, 08:29:06 AM
I don't know about that 230 figure Dan they will uselessly heat the check the block at around 220 no water in the head area and the chambers around 1200 degrees it was over 230 I would bet adding 12 gals of water there was nothing there for the gauge to read but I am hoping for the best for the 2 very nice people

 Chris be sure to get the repair cost in writing from Interstate they will dig into the old pocket if not careful I sent Jim Shepard to Interstate in Sheridan they wanted 8 grand to remove and check (series 60) his head labor only so be careful you may end up with 20,000 plus 8V71 rebuild 

Clifford   


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 15, 2013, 08:53:45 AM
One more thought - the coolant in the surge tank wasn't boiling hot, the boiling was down in the engine and it was pushing it out.

Might this not indicate that the coolant had stopped circulating - perhaps the water pump failed?

We are right now waiting to hear back from Coachnet - they are willing to tow us to Billings.  Hopefully I-State will be reasonable on the costs.

Thanks everyone for all the help.

The worst part about this situation is that we have no cell or internet where the bus is at.  :-(

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: challenger440 on June 15, 2013, 09:02:39 AM
Well Sheridan in a nice little town and infact I've been broken down there.  Ford van.  People were extremely nice.  Took a week to put in the timing gear and there was only 2 rental cars in town.  Billings is much bigger and while big does not mean better, If I was stranded for a couple of weeks, I think I'd pick Billings.
J M


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 15, 2013, 09:10:39 AM
One mistake that was made coasting and idling with the torus fan setup it was not spinning fast enough to cool if even it was spinning one never knows about that fan setup while great in theory it sucks in real time if not maintained a bad valve can cost you an engine, me I tie the lines together and let it spin all the time


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 15, 2013, 10:07:41 AM
Another update --

It looks like they are dispatching a wrecker from Billings to come get us, so 2.5hrs or so before they are here.

Some more troubleshooting thoughts on how things failed...

We were going up the hill, and I had dropped from third into second once the RPM's dropped to 1500, but once I was in 2nd gear I was able to maintain speed and the RPM's did not drop to the point of needing to go into first.

As usual on a hill my eyes were glued to the temp gauge, and it had started to move up but was barely above normal by the time we reached the crest.

I actually congratulated the bus on another big hill without getting hot.  (We had been much hotter in the past....)

But as we leveled off, I noticed the temperature had not started cooling off as normal, but was actually going up, and at an increasing rate.

The hill down the other side wasn't super steep so I wasn't using the jake brake or engine braking. The RPM's were up around 2000 in 2nd, and I shifted into 3rd.  Temperature kept going up.

At this point I started looking for a place to pull off, and I started slowing down.  The "Hot Engine" light came on, and I shifted into neutral and costed to a stop on the shoulder.  The engine overheat alarm had by this point automatically shut off the engine.

We stopped less than two miles from the summit, less than two minutes had passed since the first sign of anything unusual - other than perhaps the unusual sounds Cherie had heard.

We've been up and over a lot taller and steeper hills before, and the engine has gotten a lot hotter on the uphill before.

Something different happened this time.

The low oil pressure light never came on, but is there a chance that low oil or an oil leak might be the culprit?

Is there a way to diagnose whether this might have been a water pump or thermostat issues?

The oil dipstick is reading low now, but that might be in large part because we are tilted to the right.  Should I add oil now, or wait?

When we get back to the bus we'll try some more diagnostics before the wrecker gets here.

Any tips on what to try - let us know here or call 408-667-9022.

Thanks everyone!!!

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 15, 2013, 12:33:05 PM
Heading back to meet the wrecker. Will be out of touch for a bit. Will check in when we get to Billings.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: kevink1955 on June 15, 2013, 04:05:08 PM
In an early post it was said that after refilling the engine and restarting it it had no power and black smoke.

Is there a chance that the overheat shutdown triped the air damper?  Who knows wnat is wired to what after all these years.



Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Dave5Cs on June 15, 2013, 09:07:39 PM
If that was it it would not start at all.

Did you take a smell of the ATF to see if it has a burnt smell? You might pull the thermostats and refill with water to see if they might have stuck closed. Just some ideas!...

Dave5Cs


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 15, 2013, 10:19:35 PM
28 hrs after our overheating in the middle of nowhere, and we're finally in Billings, MT!  Woohoo.

First of all.. a HUGE thank you to everyone who has replied here, written directly and called. We so appreciate the support, well wishes and help.

We were able to get CoachNet to tow us to IState Power in Billings - we've had contact with a couple folks who have dealt with them before and report they are straight up and fair. So crossing our fingers they can help us. We spoke with Larry of iState this morning, and he greeted us upon our arrival this evening! He and his guys will get started looking things over on Monday morning, and until then we are able to live in the bus on property.

Coachnet contracted Hansers Automotive out of Billings as our wrecker service, and we can not express how completely wonderful they were. They let us know when the crew hit the road, and they showed up right on time. And we were completely thrilled when they arrived with a 'low boy' style flatbed.  Chaz and Mike were fabulous - extremely professional, competent and fun. It was a 3-hr multi-step process of wenching us around to get in place, and they made us feel completely at ease. Chaz said 'my job is to make your day better' - and boy did he.

Chris is drafting a message right now with more information on the symptoms, results of our further testing and what our wrecker team's assessment was.  But I wanted to get a quick update out that we're safely here.

It's been a crazy time, but could not image a better experience of everything coming together.

- Cherie



Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: RickB on June 15, 2013, 10:45:17 PM
The overheating transmission theory doesn't explain the 12 gallons of coolant and where that coolant went. It would take alot of time and heat to lose that much in my opinion. My guess is you may have been losing coolant for awhile and not noticed it and then when you put the motor under load it exposed the fact that you may have already had a pre existing issue. When they get it running get them to use an IR gun and search for hotspots. The weep hole on the water pump might be a good place to check for a leak

Good luck, keep your wits about you ( I can't tell you how many rash and wrong decisions I made at a number of interstate shops sometimes because of a poor mechanics rationale in diagnosing my issues.) and keep us in the loop. We're all pulling for you

Rick


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 15, 2013, 11:08:26 PM
Following up on further symptoms...

The engine still starts easily, but sounds a little off when running. It has a bit of a "chug" to it, and the wrecker said it sounded like we had lost a cylinder or two.

While the engine is running, a steady stream of oil flows out the air box drain tube (aka slobber tube).  It does not appear to be mixed with fuel or coolant. In the past we only had a few rare drips from this tube.

The oil in the oil pan also still seems pure rich black, without coolant mixed in.

We captured some of the oil that flowed out from the air box drain in a jar for future analysis.

The engine has no power - flooring it barely generates any increase in RPM's while in neutral, and while in gear the bus did not have enough power to move itself.

To prevent further damage, we did not let the engine get warm enough to see if the radiator fan would engage.

Interstate will be diving in to troubleshoot on Monday AM, but I want to be as informed as I can before than.

Any further ideas on what all these symptoms adds up to?

Any thoughts on whether we will need a new blower? Head(s)? Entire engine?

Any other things I should check or try before Monday?

Thanks everyone!

  - Chris

PS: Just saw Rick's comment....  The coolant tank had been checked that morning, and we had added a half gallon to replace some that had been lost due to leaky hoses on a cold night.  We check it every day before we head out.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: wildbob24 on June 16, 2013, 02:08:10 AM
Chris,

I'm sure Clifford and others with more experience than me will chime in. First of all, glad you made it safely off the side of the road and that the recovery team they sent had the right equipment and knew how to use it. Always a good thing.

The steady stream out of the air box drain doesn't bode well, I'm afraid. Under normal circumstances, excessive oil in the air box could come from leaking blower seals, loose piston pin retainers, or worn out cylinders/oil control rings. The overheat and lack of power makes me think cracked liners and /or pistons. You might have lost the whole upper bank. The way to check for dead cylinders is to run the engine briefly and see which cylinders stay cold at the exhaust manifold. You can do this by feel, carefully, when the engine is cold. The working cylinders will warm the manifold pretty quickly.

Once you have an idea of the bad cylinders, you can remove the nearby air box covers, one at a time, run the engine at idle and see if you can determine where the oil is coming from. You mechanic may not want to fool with this. He may just want to pull the heads and have a look. The dead cylinder check, though, is easy enough to do and should give you an indication of the extent of the damage and where to look.

I hope I'm wrong,

Bob


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Bill B /bus on June 16, 2013, 05:58:22 AM
Good luck with the repairs. We pray its a simple solution. It is a lonely feeling stuck on the side of the road with dead bus.

Again prayers are with you.

Bill/Lynn


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 16, 2013, 06:20:15 AM
It is a tough call Bob but like you I think he lost the whole top bank the GM does not like no water on top I just hope he is good on the bottom end excess heat will break the webs on the main journals then it spins a bearing plus he may have the old style 71 and they are not worth rebuilding IMO I just hope he has the later style 71 series .

I am thinking worse case as always then something simple is a blessing I know a guy in Idaho that had 2 rebuilt 8v71 with rebuilt 730's from the City of Phoenix I just hope he has 1 left in case they need it  

I should have bought the 2 he was only asking 2500 ea with the transmission attached,it breaks one heart to see peoples dream go up in smoke and repairs cost more than the price of the bus it's a catch 22 game


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: DMoedave on June 16, 2013, 07:36:09 AM
Clifford dont worry about being a pessimist, it comes with your occupation and experience haha. These two will be fine no matter the outcome, met them a time or two in Arcadia. i would worry about the shop dragging their feet on the repair just to keep them around the shop lol.  I wanted to call my plumbing co "Can of worms plumbing" because i swear it seems the simplest things can go wrong in a hurry lol.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 16, 2013, 08:47:34 AM
No dreams going up in smoke here..  this is all part of the realities of bus life and life on the road we signed up for.  Everyone we consulted with along the way imparted the realities of this happening, and we carefully factored this into our decision to buy a bus. Especially a bus for which we would have so little access to the history of. Yes, the repairs will likely be more than we paid for the bus - but there's a reason we were able to buy the bus for little, because stuff like this happen. It's all perspective, and because we bought the bus for little we have the resources put aside to handle stuff like this (well, it's not an unlimited money hole.. but..).

We're actually thrilled that we've come 2 years and nearly 20,000 miles relatively trouble free.

Whatever the outcome, it will be the right thing. We have good heads on our shoulders, are in no rush and are so blessed to have so many years of experience here in the bus community to help us figure this out in a rationale way. And as upside, hopefully when we leave here we'll have an even fuller grasp on exactly what is in our engine bay - and remove the second guessing of what lurking problems might be left over from the time this bus last had a loving owner in the early 1990s.

We just want to use this opportunity to do the right thing to keep this beauty safely on the road.

We appreciate the reality check. If we can approach the worst case scenario as being more than acceptable, then the rest is a cake walk.

Clifford, if you have any contact info for the possible rebuilt in Idaho, that could come in quite handy.

 - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Oonrahnjay on June 16, 2013, 08:53:23 AM
    We're actually thrilled that we've come 2 years and nearly 20,000 miles relatively trouble free.

Whatever the outcome, it will be the right thing.

      Best wishes for whatever turns out to be the best solution.   A lot of people are keeping you in their thoughts and prayers.  Good luck!


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Dave5Cs on June 16, 2013, 10:49:18 AM
My wife and i say "it happens for a reason. We may not know what that is at the time, but it does and you can't fight the universe".

The Bus and the Bus Life will provide many great stories especially for you guys with and for your Blog. It will also provide many learning experiences for the rest of us. Thank You for providing the answers we may need someday. ;D
Good Luck to you both with your new adventure. Keep us informed on the progress.

Dave5Cs


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 16, 2013, 11:24:17 AM
 The 4106 has a 4.5 gallon overflow tank mounted above the highest point of the engine, keeping this tank full assures that the top head will always have enough coolant and the water "tower" (the location of the water temp sender) is below the water line.. The tank is fabricated of brass and SOFT SOLDERED at the seams,, the seems will often split and the system will not hold pressure to raise the boiling temp. At each check of the water level a test of remaining pressure should be looked for from the last run of the engine. A system in good condition will hold this pressure for a long time.>>>Dan


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: B_K on June 16, 2013, 02:21:39 PM
The 4106 has a 4.5 gallon overflow tank mounted above the highest point of the engine, keeping this tank full assures that the top head will always have enough coolant and the water "tower" (the location of the water temp sender) is below the water line.. The tank is fabricated of brass and SOFT SOLDERED at the seams,, the seems will often split and the system will not hold pressure to raise the boiling temp. At each check of the water level a test of remaining pressure should be looked for from the last run of the engine. A system in good condition will hold this pressure for a long time.>>>Dan

Sounds to me that maybe it should also have a low water sensor in it and have it where it will activate the shut down solenoid as well as the temp sensors.
;D  BK  ;D


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Boomer on June 16, 2013, 07:44:42 PM
After reading over your list of things that happened, there is something that no one has mentioned that could, I say could, cause them.  I say that because it happened to one of our 8-71's years ago.  A broken camshaft on the water pump side.  Will make instant heating, rough running, no power, puking air box drain. The engine will run, but very rough.  Just a five minute job to diagnose, pull the water pump plate and turn the engine over.  Run it by your mechanic and see what he says.  You are looking at some dough but I know you are prepared for that.  Good luck.

Mark


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Lee Bradley on June 17, 2013, 12:10:29 AM
Everyone has a theory. Mine is that you had a thermostat stick closed on the head that doesn't have the temp sender. That side of the engine got hot and holed or melted one or more pistons and the water on that side turned to steam and pushed the water out of the cooling system. 


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Majikal-Joe on June 17, 2013, 06:50:22 AM
Well I just hope Cheri and Chris can get it taken care of quickly and maybe do some of the break down work them-self nothing like working on your own stuff to know it in and out....Good luck guys.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 17, 2013, 09:31:48 AM
 Lee,, you obviously don,t have experience with the 06 cross wise engine. The T stats on these engines are together , mounted in the water "tower" and not on each head, this tower is above the uppermost head (front) and an overflow tank above that, this arrangement provides for any air to be expelled above the heads. It works well unless the coolant gets low or a leak occurs in the system.>>>Dan


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 17, 2013, 10:29:27 AM
It is a tough call Bob but like you I think he lost the whole top bank the GM does not like no water on top I just hope he is good on the bottom end excess heat will break the webs on the main journals then it spins a bearing plus he may have the old style 71 and they are not worth rebuilding IMO I just hope he has the later style 71 series .


It seems like it is the bottom bank that is dead, actually.

But...  What do you mean "old style 71", how can we tell them apart?  And how should we decide whether to rebuild this engine or try and find a new one?

Advice appreciated.

I am thinking worse case as always then something simple is a blessing I know a guy in Idaho that had 2 rebuilt 8v71 with rebuilt 730's from the City of Phoenix I just hope he has 1 left in case they need it  

I should have bought the 2 he was only asking 2500 ea with the transmission attached,it breaks one heart to see peoples dream go up in smoke and repairs cost more than the price of the bus it's a catch 22 game.


Any contact info you can give us for anyone with an engine for sale would be appreciated.

What should we be looking for to make sure that we buy a good engine, if we go that route?  Is a 6V92 an option?  Does the engine have to be a takeout from a GM?

Thanks Clifford!

   - Chris // www.technomadia.com (http://www.technomadia.com)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 17, 2013, 10:57:01 AM
 Your coach is a 1961, so being IF it still has the original engine it would be "early version" and not all that desirable.
  Red Ryder and I just switched out an early 62 engine for a 75 version,, big difference. The easiest(cheapest) switch would be another 8V71, a 6V92 if available at the right price would be an excellent swap but more labor, and you would be adding a turbocharger which would be a major step up in power especially in the mountains.>>>Dan


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 17, 2013, 11:01:54 AM
Your coach is a 1961, so being IF it still has the original engine it would be "early version" and not all that desirable.

We assume it is the original engine, but is there a way we can tell if it has been swapped at some point in the past?

A turbocharger in the mountains sure would be nice.  Does the 6V92 introduce more cooling issues?

Thanks!

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 17, 2013, 11:13:40 AM
Ponderings to ponder....

once they sort out the serial number  all that regarding original block vs. up-dated block, will become apparent...which must be done anyways...
and you will be way ahead to not do it as an in-frame.. imho.
and if the money pile allows an upgrade swap, it's coming out anyways.

We assume it is the original engine, but is there a way we can tell if it has been swapped at some point in the past?

A turbocharger in the mountains sure would be nice.  Does the 6V92 introduce more cooling issues?

Thanks!

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: uncle ned on June 17, 2013, 11:22:36 AM

Look for Don Fairchild and get a waste gated turboed 8/71 set up right.  If you plan on keeping the coach it will be well worth if.  And I don't think you could get a better engine any where .

uncle ned


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 17, 2013, 06:11:19 PM
Talking with you today I would get a second opinion there is no way the shop can say you need another engine or a in-frame by shooting it with a infra/red and not looking inside drain box covers or pulling the heads

 If the number you gave me today and they were correct it was only a 100 degrees different between the top head and the bottom head a 8v71 if the rack is out of adjustment or a bad injector will be show more than that most of the time have the them pull the heads or run a compression check none of this makes any sense to me what they are saying basing it on infra red gun reading solely it is just not going to happen

 It's your money and from the sound of it I would tighten my belt so they could not pull your pants downs,check temp yourself it should read around 850 degrees @2100 rpm


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 17, 2013, 06:18:53 PM
there is no test procedure in a DD manual that uses a temp gun to determine engine condition....
Listen to Clifford.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 17, 2013, 06:36:47 PM
Talking with you today I would get a second opinion there is no way the shop can say you need another engine or a in-frame by shooting it with a infra/red and not looking inside drain box covers or pulling the heads

 If the number you gave me today and they were correct it was only a 100 degrees different between the top head and the bottom head a 8v71 if the rack is out of adjustment or a bad injector will be show more than that most of the time have the them pull the heads or run a compression check none of this makes any sense to me what they are saying basing it on infra red gun reading solely it is just not going to happen

The IR gun temperature difference wasn't the "smoking gun" (that was used more to isolate which side was damaged) - when they found oil flowing into the exhaust as well as free flowing out the blower drain that is when they told us we for sure needed a rebuild.

I can insist tomorrow that they take diagnostics to the next level if you think there is another potential theory for what is broken and how it might be fixed.

Any ideas? Any recommendations for other 2-stroke / bus folks in the area who can come give us an in person opinion?

Thanks!

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Boomer on June 17, 2013, 06:46:07 PM
If you decide to go with a reman engine I highly recommend Diesel Exchange.  They have a great reputation.  www.dieselexchange.com (http://www.dieselexchange.com)  Wouldn't hurt to get a quote.

There is a big difference between "rebuild" and remanufactured.  JMO


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 17, 2013, 06:52:04 PM
That could 1 bad piston and liner set like the seals came loose or broken oil rings take it to next level, they have not done anything for you as far as locating the problem they are just after dollars IMO,

I told Chris that today Boomer when he told me where he was checking on a rebuilt engine but wasn't as kind with the words like you lol


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 17, 2013, 07:08:10 PM
Although I don't believe this is your problem, one stuck injector in a no fuel position can cause a serious lack of power....
and easily a 100 degree differential...
PS I WISH YOU WELL  :)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 17, 2013, 07:10:09 PM
If you decide to go with a reman engine I highly recommend Diesel Exchange.  They have a great reputation.  [url=http://www.dieselexchange.com]www.dieselexchange.com[/url] ([url]http://http://www.dieselexchange.com[/url])  Wouldn't hurt to get a quote.


Thanks for the lead - I just dropped them an email.

The one remanufacturer that I spoke with earlier that Clifford is alluding to is American Fleet, Inc - which is also coincidentally located in Springfield, MO. Interesting that Steve Hendrick is listed as the president of Diesel Exchange, and Bob Hendrick is who I spoke to today at American Fleet.

Is there a family connection between these two companies?

Anyway - American Fleet has an 8V71 available to ship within a few days for $14,500, including shipping costs and a one year parts, labor, and towing warranty.

Diesel Exchange does not have an 8V71 listed on their page of "In Stock Engines" at the moment, but I'll learn more when I talk with them tomorrow.

Has anyone else hear had any experience with American Fleet? Clifford was very down on them, but Don Bowen from Choo Choo Express is the one who referred me to them and he had great things to say. It is tough for us novices to know who to believe when bus gods disagree.

Are there any other reputable remanufacturers I should call tomorrow for a quote?

Anyway...  Just gathering up options...

Cheers,

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: oldmansax on June 18, 2013, 05:19:11 AM
Cherie and Chris,

I am so sorry about your situation and feel your pain, having had engine failure in unfamiliar territory when I was in the freight business. Here are a few things I used to look at when in your situation:

How long are you going to keep this piece of equipment? In your case, you are both young, so you won't be retiring anytime soon. Is the bus you have now your "keeper" for the immediate future? It's big enough, it has what you need, and the rest of the systems are in good shape? You like it? If not, patch your engine up with chewing gum, bailing twine, and Marine-Tex, and start huntin' you another bus because there is no way in today's market you are going to get your rebuild money back when you sell your existing bus. If you're going to keep this one, go to the next step.

How much money CAN you spend? Sure, you'd like to install a brand new 4 stroke S-60 double turboed V12 Mega setup by Don Fairchild that gets 37MPG@ 70MPH but that costs $2 gazillion & you only HAVE $1 gazillion. Once you have a firm budget, you can determine that the V12 Mega is beyond what you can spend & you'll have to settle for a V6 Mega.... or a rebuilt 8V-71.

What upgrades can you get within your budget? I always hated to spend money on rebuilding/replacing anything without getting at least some improvement. If you just rebuild what you have now, all you have is a rebuilt OLD one...... kinda like me and Clifford.  ;D ;D. ( I think I've been rebuilt more than him but he had better body work done. LOL!) I don't know what can be done on your 4106 'cause I never fooled around much with GMs but can your 8-71 be turboed? That would be a BIG improvement, especially out west. Can you swing a 6V92? Even little things can help; replace the hoses? Fuel lines? Any wiring need to be done? Re-insulate the engine compartment?  Others may post additional ideas for upgrades.

You don't need to answer any of these questions on the board because the answers are none of our business but you need to answer them for yourself.
Again, Phyllis & I are so sorry for you guys.

I can't think of anything we can help you with (no, I'm not sending money! LOL!) but feel free to call anytime if there is. My number is still the same. We are in a terrible cell area right now so leave a message & it will page me.

Best Regards,

Tom & Phyllis


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: rusty on June 18, 2013, 05:42:21 AM
We took a tour of Diesel Exchange last year and was very impressed with the process they go thru to rebuild an engine. They take great pride in building engines. If i needed an engine they would be at the top of my list.

Wayne


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 18, 2013, 05:59:57 AM
Whats wrong with pricing a Reliabilt from the dealer sometimes those are new engines with a rebuild tag 

Fwiw I have a Fleet 8v71 from a GM the crank is 0.20 on the mains and 0.30 on the rods and it didn't last,  I would not buy a engine with a ground crank ,If Don says they are ok buy it makes no difference to me


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 07:43:14 AM
We're exploring as many options as possible luvrbus... so nothing wrong at all with that option. 

It's always a balance of time vs. cost.  We'd ideally like to get back out on the road sometime in the forseeable future, and will need to make a decision in the next few hours as to which direction we're chasing down.   We're good with the costs of this, just a matter of making the best choice we can about how that money gets spent to give us the most reliable setup we can muster out of this, while still getting us back on the road in a time frame measured in weeks, not months.

 - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Cary and Don on June 18, 2013, 08:36:55 AM
On the upgrade question.  If you are buying a replacement engine, have to agree, now is the time to do it, even if it means a little more time.  We have the GM with the 6V92T and an Eagle with the 8V71.  Both engines are young.  And yes the Eagle is heavier.  However,  the difference is night and day.  The Eagle is getting a transplant as soon as the money is available.  Thank goodness, we have an 8V92T in the Neoplan that will become the new engine. 

Don and Cary


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: jmblake on June 18, 2013, 08:46:22 AM
Sorry about your problems, and that is one of my biggest fears, I don't have much help to offer you since we are on the eastern side but the engine I just pulled from my bus was from Diesel exchange and I had no problems with it other than the power 8v71. It had 80,000 mile when I pulled it and used very little oil and didn't even leak, The guy I sold it to put it in a tour bus in NJ so as far as I know it is out running every day. So if I was in your situation I would buy another engine from them.
Good Luck Jason


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Boomer on June 18, 2013, 09:18:46 AM
Another remanufacturer is Perkins Pacific in Ridgefield, WA.  They are a division (a very large one) of Pacific Power the Detroit MTU distributor.  They are a program DDC, Allison, Perkins remanufacturer.  My contact there is Dave Mueller.  Keep in mind that whomever you choose it is highly doubtful that anyone will have a left hand GM configured unit in stock, it will have to be reconfigured, but I am sure you already know that.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 09:25:42 AM
Keep in mind that whomever you choose it is highly doubtful that anyone will have a left hand GM configured unit in stock, it will have to be reconfigured, but I am sure you already know that.

I am very curious about what it takes to "reconfigure" an 8V71 for left-hand use.  If we buy a generic remanufactured 8V71, is this something that can be done during installation?

While I am tracking down 8V71 options - what is it I need to look for to make sure I find something that will be compatible with our bus?

Thanks!

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Don Fairchild on June 18, 2013, 09:40:06 AM
Chris, Call pc industries at 877-885-4724 they are just down the road from you in WY. If you find a standard right hand engine you need to change the camshafts fuel pump and oil cooler along with all of the cooling set up i.e. thermostats and housing water cross over,  flywheel housing, oil pan and sub pan, oil pick up tube, and a few other things. I know where there are several 6V62TA bus engines on the cradle radiator to out put flange, Atec V730 from rts buses, they are DDECII so they would be easy to change over for your GMC.

Don


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 09:46:51 AM
Thanks for the lead Don, I am calling them now.

What is involved in taking a DDECII electrical engine and putting it into a decidedly low-tech 1961 GM chassis? Can a DDEC engine work without its smarts?

We've heard some people swear by upgrading to a 6V92TA, and others swear that it isn't worth the likely overheating hassles that will result.  And it certainly will be a more complicated install than just swapping in an 8V71 - probably requiring a new radiator and more too, right?

You are considered the ultimate authority on engine performance - what are your thoughts on the tradeoffs?

Thanks!

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Don Fairchild on June 18, 2013, 09:47:39 AM
You really need to know what is wrong with your engine, they need to do a little more trouble shooting to determine what went wrong. Clifford has given you some good advise along with a few others. You may only have one bad hole, if it stuck one kit then you can get buy with lifting the head and replacing only that hole or do all of them on that side or spend the money to pull it out and rebuild the entire engine. when you have all the info you need then you can make a better decision.

Don


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 10:00:08 AM
You may only have one bad hole, if it stuck one kit then you can get buy with lifting the head and replacing only that hole or do all of them on that side or spend the money to pull it out and rebuild the entire engine. when you have all the info you need then you can make a better decision.

We've gotten advice from several people that if you are paying the labor to do a single hole, you might as well do all 8 since even if only one failed the others will likely not be far behind.

We aren't so much interested in the simplest and cheapest option to get out of here - but in doing what is necessary to get our engine tuned and trustworthy and ready for the long-haul of reliable service.

But if there are more diagnostics we should insist on - we will do it.  I'm just not sure what more there is to determine if we ultimately will do all 8 anyway...

Thoughts?

   - Chris



Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Don Fairchild on June 18, 2013, 10:10:45 AM
Chris, you and I were posting at the same time.

As to change over I would have to look up the serial number to know for sure but most of the DDEC II engines you removed all of the electronics and installed the mui set up, i.e. governor, racks and link rods change injector and on these engines I think you need to pull the flywheel housing and remove the off set keys in the cam gears and install the straight up keys. You could then remove the atec set up form the V730 and install the valve body and modulator from yours. These things have the rts radiator and fan set up and I don't know if you could get that in your bus or not, if you could that would help with cooling. This type of change out could cost what a rebuilt 8V71N could run.  Just something to think about.

Don


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Len Silva on June 18, 2013, 10:11:31 AM
The only advice I can offer from a distance is that if you are completely comfortable with the shop doing the work, then go for it;  a new engine or an overhaul of yours.

If you don't have that warm fuzzy feeling, then you might be better off to patch it up and move on.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 03:30:40 PM
As to change over I would have to look up the serial number to know for sure but most of the DDEC II engines you removed all of the electronics and installed the mui set up, i.e. governor, racks and link rods change injector and on these engines I think you need to pull the flywheel housing and remove the off set keys in the cam gears and install the straight up keys. You could then remove the atec set up form the V730 and install the valve body and modulator from yours. These things have the rts radiator and fan set up and I don't know if you could get that in your bus or not, if you could that would help with cooling. This type of change out could cost what a rebuilt 8V71N could run.  Just something to think about.

This is exactly what we are thinking over now...

We've gotten a price quote on the 8V71 full rebuild and it is actually a bit better than we were anticipating, but the timing would have us still in Billings long enough that we would mess up our existing plans for July in Oregon.  So if we are going to end up taking more time here anyway - why not take this opportunity and repower with a 6V92TA?

I'd love more information about these engines that you know of - feel free to call me at 408-667-9022 or PM or post more info here.

Most of the other bus nuts I've talked to say that the 6V92TA would be a great all around upgrade - more power, much better at altitude, somewhat better fuel economy, more modern engine design, easier to find parts and experienced mechanics, and less susceptible to damage from abuse than an 8V71. Is this all really true?  (At least one bus nut has told me the exact opposite on some of these - bus nuts can never all agree!)

Anyway - our decision right now is coming down to doing a full 8V71 overhaul (ending up with a tuned, tested, painted, and warrantied engine), or doing a repower to a 6V92TA.

Wisdom and advice always appreciated.

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 18, 2013, 03:39:20 PM
 The 92TA would be a great choice, altho its more unforgiving to overheating issues. The aluminum heads don't like to be overheated, but then there is no reason for that if the cooling system is maintained.>>>Dan


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 18, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
The 92 is not a airplane engine Dan it has no aluminum heads you just wake up from your nap ::)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 18, 2013, 04:30:46 PM
 I had to re-read what I wrote, my bad, I was typing too fast for the brain.>>>D


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: chessie4905 on June 18, 2013, 04:40:00 PM
  He meant that the aluminum valve covers are less forgiving. Less than what, I wouldn't venture to guess.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 18, 2013, 04:44:33 PM
 I guess I had that one coming huh??>>>D ( I had better take that nap now)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: B_K on June 18, 2013, 04:46:41 PM
Chris & Cherrie you are wise to look over all options before doing anything.

I have dealt with American Fleet before we have bought an engine from them and a bus from them that they had put an engine in.
Both ran great and had no issues with either one.

I also know several others who have bought multiple engines from them and were happy. (and Mr. Bowen os only 1 of 3-4 of them)

No don't get me wrong I'm not one to argue with Clifford (and I'm not arguing with him), so take his words of wisdom wisely.

Also get with Don Fairchild and see what it'd take to put in one of those 6v92TA's from the RTS in there.

If it were mine and I was going to spend that kinda $ I'd go ahead an putin the DDEC 6V92TA in it and upgrade it from the DDEC II to DDEC IV. (you guys are techies and should have no problems learning and working on the Pro-link type stuff to keep up with it)

Just my 2 cents worth and it needs about $2 added to it to buy a truck stop shot of coffee these days.
;D  BK  ;D


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: wg4t50 on June 18, 2013, 04:59:17 PM
The small radiator ?  Can it handle the 6V-92 comfy ?
Dave M


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 18, 2013, 05:04:09 PM
The radiator is fine Dave just the 92 needs all the fan components redone with pulleys and belts,

I see American Fleet is no longer grinding the crankshafts so the site says that's good took him awhile to figure that out, I wonder if he is still grinding the cams 


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: azdieselman on June 18, 2013, 05:15:45 PM
I know of a road ready GM bus in Phoenix. 6V92 W/automatic. It has been stretched to 38'. It belongs to a friend of mine. He's not able to use it anymore. It has new tires also.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Van on June 18, 2013, 05:33:30 PM
Hey Don, do you still have that Hot Rodded 71? ;D ;D
 Good luck you two, Re-manufactured w/warranty will give you some piece of mind, new is nice also but oh the cost!

 best o luck to ya's
  Van & Cheryl :)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: LowTide on June 18, 2013, 06:04:27 PM
I know of a road ready GM bus in Phoenix. 6V92 W/automatic. It has been stretched to 38'. It belongs to a friend of mine. He's not able to use it anymore. It has new tires also.

Is he running an ad on CL?


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 18, 2013, 06:19:41 PM
It shouldn't be that hard to install series 50 and transmission from a RTS setup in a 4106 and they can be had cheap I saw a RTS with the series 50 and V731 setup the guys was asking 3500 bucks for the whole bus


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: azdieselman on June 18, 2013, 06:23:10 PM
No, I don't think he's advertised it yet.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 06:32:07 PM
If it were mine and I was going to spend that kinda $ I'd go ahead an putin the DDEC 6V92TA in it and upgrade it from the DDEC II to DDEC IV. (you guys are techies and should have no problems learning and working on the Pro-link type stuff to keep up with it)

Wait - is it even possible to run a DDEC engine without the rest of the computer control stuff?

What are the advantages (and disadvantages?) of going with an engine with the DDEC controls still integrated?

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 18, 2013, 06:39:49 PM
What do you mean the rest of the computer stuff ? they don't need a computerized transmission to work only the electronic pedal and wiring to the front no big deal


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Barn Owl on June 18, 2013, 07:42:49 PM
As you both know I have a lot of time in both a 8v71/v730 and a 6v92ta/v730 in a 4106 and in my opinion there is no question that the TA is a dreamy upgrade! Better fuel mileage, more power, sails over the mountain passes. We live at the foot of Bent Mountain with an 8% grade and my father's 4106 goes up it like a car. I go up it like a bus with a 8v71.....crawling. I wish you where here in Virginia now that you have the driving experience, you could take my dad's bus out for a comparison drive. I couldn't imagine you would ever regret the swap, that engine will always be #1 on my wish list.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 07:50:55 PM
Have you noticed much difference in heat generation between the 8V71 and 6V92TA?

Are the alternator and air compressor interchangeable between the two?

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Barn Owl on June 18, 2013, 08:06:51 PM
My bus at higher altitudes runs hotter. I think it is due to the inefficiencies of a non-turbo and my tendency to make black smoke. My father's bus doesn't know the difference between sea level and eight thousand feet. We both have seven core radiators, and additional Hayden transmission coolers in series with the oil/water cooler. I don't see that many modifications with the swap. My father's bus has an extended shroud or tube that extends out to the fan. It is a simple setup that works. I can get plenty of pics if you decide to pursue it.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Barn Owl on June 18, 2013, 08:07:48 PM
Quote
Are the alternator and air compressor interchangeable between the two?

Yes


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 18, 2013, 08:28:55 PM
Yep they will but the bell housing from your 8v71 is not the same as as 6v92 fwiw and the flywheel is different also kinda of a catch 22 I don't know of a highway coach GM ever made that had a 6V92 the engine it will probably be from a RTS model or other brands and watch those some are right handed not lefties


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 18, 2013, 08:59:48 PM
Regarding your  cautious stance on heat dissipation and it's abilities regarding each potential power choice....
What are you currently using for a transmission cooler, and is it adequate in IT'S current configuration...WILL it work in an upgrade turbo choice.
You might want to post it here for scrutiny also. (or not)
It is quite possible that it contributed to your dilemma.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 09:09:56 PM
What are you currently using for a transmission cooler, and is it adequate in IT'S current configuration...WILL it work in an upgrade turbo choice.
You might want to post it here for scrutiny also. (or not)
It is quite possible that it contributed to your dilemma.

Very good point.  Here is what I know about the current setup - the transmission oil flows through a heat exchanger mounted on the back bulkhead, where coolant flows in from a pipe that emerges from near the lower exhaust manifold, and then from the heat exchanger it dumps into the top of the radiator.

I can get a picture of the heat exchanger tomorrow and post it - I have no idea how to judge whether or not it is up to the task.

  - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: RJ on June 18, 2013, 10:01:00 PM
Chris -

OK, I'm going to throw out another possibility for you to ponder (or a monkey wrench in the works?):

Do like TomC did and rebuild your 8V71 to 8V71T (turbo) specs, but w/o the turbo for now.  Don can give the shop all the necessary part numbers for the piston/liner kits and other necessary goodies.  Then when you get into Don's neck of the woods, he can add the turbo and fine tune it for you.  How much hp do you want?  350?  375?  400?  Any of those numbers are easily produced by an 8V turbo. (Personally, I'd just set it up at 350, plenty of giddy-up-go in the '06, almost smoke-free and good longevity.)

Back when I worked in charters, the company had two MC-9s with 8V71TAs @ 350hp, and several 9s with the 6V92TAC @ 275hp.  On the 70+ miles of 4, 5 & 6% grades headed to Reno from Sacramento on I-80, the V8s would always outrun the V6s, but overall running time was only 5 - 15 min different.  This over 7300' Donner Summit.  Basically a wash, and the fuel mileage difference was insignificant at about 6.5 mpg ea.  I preferred the V8s, because they would pull longer in the higher gears before being forced to downshift (HT754 Allisons), especially on the milder grades.

Basically, a turbocharger really makes the two-stroke come alive, especially when you start climbing around Rocky Top, plus it helps keep the gendarmes away due to smoke reduction.  Not to mention a lot more fun to drive!

One other thought:  This would be a good time to have the radiator looked at by a competent radiator shop as a preventative maintenance measure. 

Whatever you decide, there are a lot of us paying close attention and supporting you!

FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 11:11:56 PM
First of all.. thank you ALL for your wonderful advice, feedback and ideas.  Keep tossing those wrenches at us, we want to explore all feasible options, and will keep following up on them until we reach a decision point. We feel blessed that we're not on a strict time crunch, and have the time to logically sort this out first.

Secondly, just remembered that we took some video of our first engine start on the side of the road after the engine cooled down and refilled the coolant with water.

Here's a link to it, if you'd like to take a listen:
http://youtu.be/umpLHCDkIZA (http://youtu.be/umpLHCDkIZA)

Zephyr is now blowing out more oil at a faster rate than shown in the video.

 - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 18, 2013, 11:38:25 PM
Do like TomC did and rebuild your 8V71 to 8V71T (turbo) specs, but w/o the turbo for now. 

Oh, that is an interesting idea... 

I didn't think there was space to fit a turbo on top of an 8V71 in a 4106, without going up into the closet area. And that seemed like too much potential modification.

There are also substantially more heat issues than a 6V92TA, right?

But...  If it can be done...  Tempting!

If anyone would know how, Don would be the one. I will try to call him in the AM to pick his brain.

Such a dilema: 8V71 rebuild, 6V92TA repower, and now maybe an 8V71 re-turboed.  Which way to go?!?!

(We've had the suggestion to let Kiki decide...)

One other thought:  This would be a good time to have the radiator looked at by a competent radiator shop as a preventative maintenance measure. 

Indeed - this is already slated and was part of the quote we got from the shop here.

Cheers!

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Barn Owl on June 19, 2013, 04:54:49 AM
Keep in mind the HP rating of the V730 when pumping up the HP. I don't remember what it is, but I agree that 350hp is a good number for a 4106. Any turbo option is a good one, it just seems like there are a lot of 6v92 setups out there due to the RTS doners. The turbo lets you travel anywhere as if you where at sealevel.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Barn Owl on June 19, 2013, 05:02:34 AM
The cooler I added:

Hayden 1290

Came from this post:Topic: Black iron pipe. Can it be used to run transmission fluid? (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=20453.0;all)

My father's bus has the Hayden 1260 (Six rows vs. nine)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: rusty on June 19, 2013, 06:05:01 AM
I have no idea what motor will be the best for you but I can pass some information about 871 turbo. A friend of mine had some trouble and I went to Arizona to bring his bus back to Colorado. He has an Eagle and I think his weight is around 38000 LBS. I have driven that road a few times in My Eagle ( 400 horse 4 stroke ). I was surprised how well Don's 871 turbo handled the hills. There was not much difference in the way his bus  handled the hills compared to my bus. The only thing is his 871 would heat up more than my 400. I had to keep one eye on the temp gauge in his bus.

Wayne


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Scott & Heather on June 19, 2013, 06:12:16 AM
Oh geez...not another one. Said a prayer for you guys...wish we could do more...


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: B_K on June 19, 2013, 06:28:42 AM
Quote from: technomadia
Wait - is it even possible to run a DDEC engine without the rest of the computer control stuff?

What are the advantages (and disadvantages?) of going with an engine with the DDEC controls still integrated?

  - Chris

If you go DDEC you'll need the ECM . Which those engines Don knows about are version 2.
But as I said an Don will also advise I'd go ahead and change it over to a version 4.

With your techie skills you won't have any problem making the conversion to throttle by wire or setting up a laptop as a dash to follow the DDEC gauge info.

On our older Setra's (the 88-95's I know of for sure!) they put 2 temp, and oil pressure sensors each in the engine one (ea) for the DDEC, and one for the dash gauges.
;D  BK  ;D

Oh and if rebuilding it to turbo specs and having Don turbo it later why not have him ship you his custom pistons, cams and other goodies so it will be set up with his parts from the start. (remember he not only makes power, but passes emissions too!)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: uncle ned on June 19, 2013, 07:01:11 AM

I keep waiting for Ken Arnold to chime in here.  He has a  series 50 he started to install in a silversides.

That is my wish engine in the back of HUGGY.  Will happen when I hit the lottery.

Love my 6v92 turbo but the smoke and sometimes the heat worrys me.

Don pistons and liners are a work of art. If I were building my engine he is the person I want to tell me what to do.
he is also a pretty good cook.

uncle ned
Huggy a 4104 with a 6v92 and v730 
a real sports car of buses


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: roadrunnertex on June 19, 2013, 07:03:56 AM
I sort of have a very small little dog in this fight so to speak as I know these bus folks. ;D
It's called Money do you have enough? To let the shop repower your bus with a running take out 6V/92 turbo or rework the 8V/71 and go on down the road with a known warranty and know what has been done to the engine and other components.
Folks Nimco is no longer Nick Liberti has retired from Nimco so we have lost our good source of good used takeout engines and transmission's.
How many times we have seen Quote!
Oh I have a good low time engine that was running fine when it was removed from the bus!
Only to find out it's no better than what we had in our bus before it road failed.
My idea is rework the 8V/71 rod out and repair the radiator install a good Hayden Transmission oil cooler and go down the road from there.
So you go up the hill's a little slower and have less power Than a Silver 6/V92 but you still get there and perhaps have a little money left over for repairs on down the road.
Remember your Kitty Cat knows the best way to solve the problem it's called I think I will take a cat nap and hope for the best. ::)
Good luck on which ever option you go with.
jlv


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 19, 2013, 07:25:25 AM

Remember your Kitty Cat knows the best way to solve the problem it's called I think I will take a cat nap and hope for the best. ::)

jlv



JLV - Thank you for your call last night! Your wise and logical reasoning made our blog post today:

http://www.technomadia.com/2013/06/decisions-decisions-decisions/ (http://www.technomadia.com/2013/06/decisions-decisions-decisions/)

 :)

 - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Hard Headed Ken on June 19, 2013, 07:40:00 AM
I keep waiting for Ken Arnold to chime in here.  He has a  series 50 he started to install in a silversides.

That is my wish engine in the back of HUGGY.  Will happen when I hit the lottery.

Love my 6v92 turbo but the smoke and sometimes the heat worrys me.

Don pistons and liners are a work of art. If I were building my engine he is the person I want to tell me what to do.
he is also a pretty good cook.

uncle ned
Huggy a 4104 with a 6v92 and v730  

Ned,
 I've read all this and yes I have a Series 50 and 730 in my shop. Even though I don't care for the 2 strokes, it requires a lot of work to do a repower. The DDEC wiring is probably the least problem. It's the plumbing; heater hoses, fuel hoses, radiator hoses, inter-cooler hoses, trans cooler hoses, exhaust system and then mounts have to be made for most of this plumbing. All of these things will be in a different place and lot of consideration has to be given to the routing of all this plumbing. Is it going be serviceable? Is it going rub against something and cause a failure? Is it too close to a heat source? As much as can't believe I'm saying this it maybe best for Chris and Cherie to keep the setup they have and have a warranty with it. After all they were satisfied with it.

Ken



Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 19, 2013, 07:47:16 AM
The plan that our cat Kiki greenlighted today (by notching her teeth on the estimate sheet) - was to proceed with having the shop take the engine out and start poking around. We want to isolate what actually failed and caused the damage in the first place, and we'd also like to confirm that the heads and block and crankshaft and other key parts of our 8V71 are all still in good enough shape to be worth rebuilding. This will be a key point in our decision between rebuild or repower.

In the meantime, we're following up on the 6v92 research to determine how viable of an option that is. We know it'll be a lot of reworking, and we'll get a feel for if this particular shop feels confident in approaching that at all. Keep the thoughts coming, we appreciate them all!

  - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: roadrunnertex on June 19, 2013, 08:14:08 AM
The plan that our cat Kiki greenlighted today (by notching her teeth on the estimate sheet) ;D

Go for it! Kiki sez now can I have treat and a long cat nap! :D

Keep us posted folks.
jlv


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 19, 2013, 08:49:21 AM
- was to proceed with having the shop take the engine out and start poking around. We want to isolate what actually failed   - Cherie

I applaud this choice, now capitalize on this and break out the designer overalls, get out your vintage Rosy the Riveter head gear, the neoprene apron and gloves you have stashed...arm your self with a pair of eye protection and sign the parts cleaners apprentice agreement and soon you will be a junior Yoda.... ;D


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 19, 2013, 08:51:06 AM
Forget about turboing the 8v71 in a 4106 there is not enough room I have a turbo set up off a 4905 8v71 it was the worst clopped mess you ever laid eyes on  


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 19, 2013, 08:51:33 AM
I applaud this choice, now capitalize on this and break out the designer overalls, get out your vintage Rosy the Riveter head gear, the neoprene apron and gloves you have stashed...arm your self with a pair of eye protection and sign the parts cleaners apprentice agreement and soon you will be a junior Yoda.... ;D

They actually have invited us to shadow them.. we are both really excited about that opportunity to learn :)



Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 19, 2013, 09:04:58 AM
They actually have invited us to shadow them.. we are both really excited about that opportunity to learn :)



You will probably learn words that you may find shocking....oh sugar will evoke laffter...and good natured derision....nag dab bit is probably acceptable......use your best Popeye swagger or pop for a set of ear plugs.... ;D

PS it will definitely give you a thorough appreciation of the cost... :o


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Lin on June 19, 2013, 10:56:14 AM
Hey Clifford, there was a guy near here that owned several conversions.  He was selling a 4106 with an 8v92. 


Title: Re: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Dave5Cs on June 19, 2013, 11:19:15 AM
If kiki didn t sign it with...........a hairball.The contract won t add up to a hill of catnip.  Come on someone had to say it

Dave5Cs from Galaxy S III


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 19, 2013, 11:31:46 AM
You will probably learn words that you may find shocking....oh sugar will evoke laffter...and good natured derision....nag dab bit is probably acceptable......use your best Popeye swagger or pop for a set of ear plugs.... ;D

PS it will definitely give you a thorough appreciation of the cost... :o

Sounds like I might have to teach them some new vocabulary... I am the red headed daughter of a sailor, afterall ;)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 19, 2013, 11:35:27 AM
Yea Lin I know that guy


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Debo on June 19, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
Sorry for the unexpected side-trip you guys, but it sounds like you're doing your research and formulating a plan. I really appreciate your willingness to share your approach to all of this because it's potentially something that could happen to any bus nut at any time. It's been fascinating to read about your process and experiences so far, and I hope you'll feel like sharing some real-world numbers with us (when it comes to that) regarding billed hours, cost, etc.

I'm afraid I don't have much to offer other than what my experience in the aviation world has taught me, and that is "keep it simple, reliable, and relatively easy to repair in a pinch." It's just been my experience that increased parts count and complexity create more nooks and crannies where gremlins can hide. Of course this comes from a guy who is happy with an 8V-71N because I'm not in a hurry and it's about as bulletproof as these things get. I know you have a lot of choices about the way you want to proceed, and I just thought I'd throw my two cents into the discussion.

Best of luck.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: tjtheman007 on June 19, 2013, 03:46:20 PM
They actually have invited us to shadow them.. we are both really excited about that opportunity to learn :)




Jealous!! I would jump at that opportunity! I have much to learn, but am very willing to.

Sorry about everything that happened. Glad to see you made the best of it though and seem like you are both still smiling!


I know my opinion doesn't matter much, but I vote keep your existing engine configuration, that is if you have been happy with it so far. If you do have a cracked block, piston, etc, just replace it. (I know, easier said then done). There will be A LOT of work that will have to go into a complete re-power, were as fixing/rebuilding your current engine or getting an exact replacement will be basically bolt-in.


Anyway, best of luck with everything and the researching aspect!!



TJ
PD4501-858


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 19, 2013, 03:52:20 PM
Just for the helluva it escaping from the heat today I did a total on a 8v71 re manufacture not using rebuilt but new heads,a new crank new main bearing caps,oil pump, water pump, machine work(line bore and cylinder bore) using some rebuilt stuff like the injectors,blower,cams rocker arms,rods and such. 

I did this for Ricky just see if Stewart and Stevenson could justify 27,000 for a out of frame 8v71 reman seems like they could

Hold your breath or set down total for parts only no Jakes included from WW Williams Detroit Diesel with my little discount $26,124.59 without tax just parts amazing then add $12,000 to $17,000 labor is it worth it.

A big thanks to Bill at WW Williams for playing my game lol it was a slow day for him also


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 19, 2013, 04:08:56 PM
Just for the helluva it escaping from the heat today...

There are better ways to escape the heat, ya know?? Like go north? Up a mountain? :D

Oh goodness do I remember that heat two years ago when we found Zephyr in AZ and came up to visit you. Egads. That's just not human-like.

 - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 19, 2013, 04:13:41 PM
As soon as I get Doyles 8v71 rebuilt that very day we will be headed to Garden Valley Idaho  :D


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Don Fairchild on June 19, 2013, 05:06:01 PM
Chris, I have been looking at youir vidio until it would not play anymore. I may be off base but before they do  anything else have the shop pull the injectors and look at them and see if the engine blew a couple of tips.

Will talk again tommorow.

Don


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 19, 2013, 07:13:10 PM
Chris, I have been looking at youir vidio until it would not play anymore. I may be off base but before they do  anything else have the shop pull the injectors and look at them and see if the engine blew a couple of tips.
Will talk again tomorrow.
Don

Hopefully this is already known...by now.
Have any parts been removed...t-stats...valve covers....radiator cap... ;D


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 19, 2013, 07:17:36 PM
Hopefully this is already known...by now.
Have any parts been removed...t-stats...valve covers....radiator cap... ;D

Actually.. the shop wasn't able to get us on their schedule for today after all. Which may turn out to be a blessing, as we're exploring an potential alternative option. ;)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 19, 2013, 08:04:10 PM
oh ?....the plot thickens.... :)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 19, 2013, 08:16:53 PM
As soon as I get Doyles 8v71 rebuilt that very day we will be headed to Garden Valley Idaho  :D
[/ Sometime next year.>>>quote]


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 19, 2013, 08:23:53 PM
How about later this week Dan we are still needing a few parts they were shipped wrong,we have everything back from Baker too he did a good job on the aluminum heads  :P plus my labor rate for my friends dictate my pace   


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: sdc53 on June 20, 2013, 03:06:00 AM
I have an 8v71T in my 4107 and I like it.  The plumbing isn't messy, and seems like a factory setup, from what I don't know though, PO did it.  Don't forget you have to re-plumb your exhaust and intake (see pics to get an idea) and you need the turbo horn and bracket that goes on top of the blower.  I think it *will* fit in a 4106.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/20/eguze2a6.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/20/y9u8u6y6.jpg)

Happy to get out the tape measure for you and tell you how far it sticks up if you are considering the 8v71T option.  I think it's still underpowered in my 4107, but it should make your lightweight 4106 fly.  If you go down that road, make sure you have sourced all the parts first - my understanding from my mechanic is that some of the plumbing is hard to find.

Do you have jakes now?  If not, might be a nice addition while you are in there.

Ditto to what someone else said about getting the radiator serviced while it's drained anyways, especially if a turbo is in your future.  You might even need an upgrade in that area - I am wary of my temp gauge. Always looking at the damn thing, here's after a short maybe 2-3% hill climb (albeit at 60-65mph) on a sunny Oregon day:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/20/ze8e5yna.jpg)
I'm not ready to tackle a 6.5% grade at 90+ degrees OAT in this setup.  Not sure how many of us are, though - turbo or not.

Not meant to be a 6v92T vs 8v71T debate, either.  The '71 only has 16 more ci of displacement.  I've not driven a 6v92.  Either way, HEAT is always gonna be a concern. 

Hope you make it out to Oregon!  We will be on the coast the week of Independence day.

Scott
'69 4107
Gladstone, OR


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: bevans6 on June 20, 2013, 04:00:59 AM
When I did my engine swap parts cleaning hours outnumbered actual mechanic work hours by two to one - or better!  And everybody likes to have someone else do the dishes...

Brian


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Majikal-Joe on June 20, 2013, 04:39:28 AM
When I did my engine swap parts cleaning hours outnumbered actual mechanic work hours by two to one - or better!  And everybody likes to have someone else do the dishes...

Brian

I agree with that every shop needs a go-for guy and most of the time you'll be right there or not too far away from the work. As for me I go for the rebuild with 42yrs in trucking and 10 yrs boating DD are by far the less expenses way to go if that is what you have for a setup...


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 05:32:24 AM
The turbo looks goods setting on the horn his did also the exhaust piping was a mess so was the intake yours is neater than his but you have the same problem if anything needs done on the top 


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Don Fairchild on June 20, 2013, 08:51:27 AM
does anyone know where that type of turbo set up is, I would like to use it on Chris's engine if I rebuild it. It would save time and money.

Thanks

Don


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 09:00:50 AM
does anyone know where that type of turbo set up is, I would like to use it on Chris's engine if I rebuild it. It would save time and money.

Thanks

Don

Now that it's revealed that we're seriously considering having Don work his magic on our engine...  anyone have hauling recommendations to get our bus from Billings to Bakersfield?  We have some quotes and calls in progress right now too, but always love to tap into wisdom and experience.

 - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 09:22:17 AM
I have it Don off a 4905a call me I have the turbo also you will need new pipes I got pissed and sawsalled those I  have the manifolds also


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 20, 2013, 10:18:26 AM
Now that it's revealed that we're seriously considering having Don work his magic on our engine... - Cherie

Just because I cannot help my nosy self....has iState confidently condemned your current dilemma....curious readers hafta know.. ::)

PS with the selection of door number 2....are the full Rosie's still an option ?..... ;D

PSS Regarding shipping:
https://www.snortnboartransport.com/ (https://www.snortnboartransport.com/)

Snortn Boar Transport Announces Latest Additions Effective August, 2011 SBT is pleased to announce the following additions to our services. Snortn Boar Transport has listened to your great feedback, suggestions, and requests, and has spent the past year improving our operation to provide improved client services and respond to our expanding market base. These additions will allow us to better serve you and include: 1.Being fully compliant with all USDOT and Federal Motor Carrier Interstate Commerce Authority regulations and requirements. 2.Upgraded equipment: 1999 T-600 Kenworth 2007 48' Drop deck 2012 455-53' Landoll Tiltdeck a 2013 Fontaine triple axle RGN extendable. 3.The possibility always exists that we may use your shipment for a upcoming episode for Shipping Wars if that interests you!  First and foremost is my commitment to our customers that you will receive professional and top notch service always!


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 10:30:50 AM
Just because I cannot help my nosy self....has iState confidently condemned your current dilemma....curious readers hafta know.. ::)


The folks at iState are great, and are being extremely helpful & supportive in all of this.. and fully know the options we are considering.  They however are used to working fairly by the book, and when we start thinking outside a straight up rebuild, they get a little ... umm..  whibbley.

Example.. they were thrown for a bit of a loop that our current block's model number is for a righty 8v71T, but setup as a lefty 8v71N. With some coaching from us, they were able to eventually start looking up parts. They have 4 competent 2-cycle guys here, but they're used to trucks and farm equipment, not necessarily vintage buses.  They haven't condemned our current dilemma, and we feel confident with their ability to rebuild the 8v71 back up for us..  but if we want anything other than that, their enthusiasm (and thus suitability for the job) starts to dwindle.

We have a strong preference for working with people who are enthused about our crazy projects and like to play.

 - Cherie
 


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 20, 2013, 10:37:07 AM
The folks at iState are great, we start thinking outside a straight up rebuild, they get a little ... umm..  whibbley.

but if we want anything other than that, their enthusiasm (and thus suitability for the job) starts to dwindle.

We have a strong preference for working with people who are enthused about our crazy projects and like to play.
 - Cherie

I suspected as much, see my edit to previous post... ;D
My only heartache stems from not at least looking at the injectors, t-stats and maybe the water pump...the coach CAN be loaded out to Bakersfield with those items in a box....


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 10:38:38 AM
Pull the engine and cradle rent a u-haul truck drive the 1200 or so miles to his shop have him rebuild it pick it up in a couple of weeks drive the 1200 miles back install in a couple of days and be King of the Road sound easy huh


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: bobofthenorth on June 20, 2013, 10:47:44 AM
I was about to suggest the U-Haul route but (as usual) the old guy was three jumps ahead of me.  Not sure what you have for a towed but perhaps a trailer rental would work - otherwise a cube van rental will be heaps cheaper than hauling the bus somewhere.  If Don is simply rebuilding your existing engine that should be relatively straightforward - if he's converting it to turbo that may introduce some complications when you go to stuffing it back into the bus.

There's a big rockpile between you and Bakersfield so I can't imagine that moving the bus there is going to be cheap.  There's some online freight discounters - freightquote.com is the one I'm familiar with but there are others.  If you're serious about moving it I'd get a listing up on a couple of those sites and see what comes your way.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: John316 on June 20, 2013, 10:57:47 AM
I am with Clifford and Bob. If it was me, and if I liked Istate, then have them pull the engine. Haul it to Don, then bring it back.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 11:00:19 AM
Pull the engine and cradle rent a u-haul truck drive the 1200 or so miles to his shop have him rebuild it pick it up in a couple of weeks drive the 1200 miles back install in a couple of days and be King of the Road sound easy huh

That is an option we have on the contender's list.. however looking like the costs of this is on par with just shipping the bus down to Don, and doesn't give us the advantage of living onsite and working at more leisurely pace with him as we agilely come up with the right solution.  We also have a conference in Portland in early July, so it could make sense to get the bus in transit down south, we take the MINI Cooper over to Portland, and then road trip down south to join up.

We put auctions up on uShip yesterday, and have a couple quotes already in directly from companies our wrecker service referred us to.


We could have iState do more diagnostics.. but we fear the rabbithole that could turn into.. and it really doesn't change our outcome. But of course, if Don has information he needs before seeing things himself, we'll totally hire iState be his eyes and ears.  

 - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: azdieselman on June 20, 2013, 11:07:48 AM
Has anyone actually found the problem with the engine?
It may well be cheaper to repair the engine and drive it to Dons.
It can't cost that much to pull the valve covers and airbox covers to have a look.
Even if it needed a headgasket, I think you'd still be money ahead.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 11:13:33 AM
If Don is simply rebuilding your existing engine that should be relatively straightforward - if he's converting it to turbo that may introduce some complications when you go to stuffing it back into the bus.

Exactly.

We are moderately confidant that IState can do a good job with rebuilding the engine here to Detroit specs.

We aren't nearly as confident that they are up to stuffing a modified and upgraded engine that we bring to them back into the bus.  There are a lot of details and origami to work through for fitting the turbo that Don has done a dozen times before, and the guys up here will be figuring out from scratch.

That means it makes a lot of sense to get the bus to Don's - not just the engine.

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 11:21:03 AM
Has anyone actually found the problem with the engine?
It may well be cheaper to repair the engine and drive it to Dons.
It can't cost that much to pull the valve covers and airbox covers to have a look.
Even if it needed a headgasket, I think you'd still be money ahead.

Our thinking is that even the quickest and dirtiest possible repair up here will still be many thousands of dollars, likely lots more than it will cost to ship the bus to Don's.

And if we get a quick fix here - we still have some substantial mountains and terrain between here and there, and we'd be tempting fate risking another failure by setting off with a less than rebuilt engine. And if we don't go with the full rebuild, we won't even have a warranty to fall back on if something does go wrong.

And then once we are at Don's - we'll need to redo a bunch of the work.

We aren't in a rush - why not just get the bus there and do it right the first time?  No need to pay to do the same work and the same diagnostics twice.

  - Chris


Title: Re: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Dave5Cs on June 20, 2013, 12:07:05 PM
Huzar!!!!!! Remember to pickup the Tri Tip on the way to Don s. He loves Bar B Qued Tri tip.
Good luck on your new adventure down south.
Positive thoughts for you both.

Dave5Cs from Galaxy S III


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Len Silva on June 20, 2013, 12:18:09 PM
I am really glad that you are posting this saga here, I am glad that you had the forethought and resources to deal with a problem like this.

I really hope that some of the dreamers read and understand what you are going through.

For many of us, myself included, your situation would have meant scrapping the bus in place and riding a different bus home.  I wish you well.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 12:45:16 PM
For many of us, myself included, your situation would have meant scrapping the bus in place and riding a different bus home.

Ah - but for us, the bus is home. And just like how every so often every house needs major maintenance (like a new roof!), we expected to eventually have to deal with something like this to keep our home in great shape.

The nice thing about our house is that the view changes. Sometimes that view isn't anything more exciting than a parking lot at a diesel shop. But hopefully sooner rather than later we'll be back to scenic vistas and awesome views.

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: TomC on June 20, 2013, 01:02:24 PM
Since your 8V-71 is already a turbo engine, for me it is a no brainer to overhaul your engine and reinstall it. Then later you can turbo it. Yes it is a tight fit, but will ultimately be the cheapest way to go. Completely changing the engine to a 6V-92 will have issues that you can't forsee.
I can tell you from experience that turboing an 8V-71 (I also have an air to air intercooler) REALLY wakes them up and makes driving a total joy. Driving from L.A. to Las Vegas-when pulling my car, went from having to down shift on several up grades to not down shifting except for Cajon Pass and Baker hill-both of which I pull 15mph faster. The 71 series is a more forgiving engine-it is more tolerant to overheating, overspeeding and with the dry cylinder liners, don't have to worry about coolant in the oil if the liner seals start to leak-like on the 92 series. Good Luck, TomC


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 01:12:18 PM
Since your 8V-71 is already a turbo engine, for me it is a no brainer to overhaul your engine and reinstall it. Then later you can turbo it. Yes it is a tight fit, but will ultimately be the cheapest way to go.

Don has confirmed that since the pistons and liners are different - it doesn't make sense to overhaul it here as an 8V71N and then later turbo it - the work should all be done at once.

I can tell you from experience that turboing an 8V-71 (I also have an air to air intercooler) REALLY wakes them up and makes driving a total joy. Driving from L.A. to Las Vegas-when pulling my car, went from having to down shift on several up grades to not down shifting except for Cajon Pass and Baker hill-both of which I pull 15mph faster. The 71 series is a more forgiving engine-it is more tolerant to overheating, overspeeding and with the dry cylinder liners, don't have to worry about coolant in the oil if the liner seals start to leak-like on the 92 series.

Great thoughts Tom.  We are open to either an 8V71T or 6V92TA, and a lot will come down to what Don ultimately recommends.

BTW - unlike some bus nuts, we aren't primarily looking for a "hot rod" driving experience.  Cruising at 55mph in the slow lane is plenty fine for us.

Here are our ultimate goals in our engine overhaul:


1) Reliable & Rock Solid. The bus is our home, and we want to trust it to get us where we are going with minimal fuss. We aren't going to demand tons of miles from her - roughly 10k year, but in use in potentially all four seasons of climate and in all corners of the country.

2) Suitable for travel at higher elevations, and on steep backroads and camp roads.

3) As fuel efficient as possible. (This is more important than speed...)

4) Good hill climbing abilities - even on hot days. We don't mind being passed, but do not want to end up a traffic obstacle stuck at 15mph.

5) Great hill descending capabilities without riding the brakes. Jakes are a must.

6) Top speed is not a concern - we cruise at 55-65mph or else the girl eeps too much.

7) We don't need to do everything on the cheap, but we don't have anything close to a blank check either.

8) Acceleration for merging is nice to have, but we are rarely into passing. We don't need a "hot rod" - especially if it comes with a hot engine.

9) Geek points are nice if a DDEC gives us things like cruise control, more instrumentation, and especially more engine safety systems.  But we have plenty of geek points already so we can give these up if it costs too much.

10) Reliable and rock solid.  Again the most important goal.


   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: sdc53 on June 20, 2013, 01:26:51 PM
Clifford I have quick-release clamps on those exhaust pieces, my mechanic had that whole enchilada off there in about 10 mins.
Note my exhaust stack goes out the roof (unmuffled) loud as hell, I wouldn't do it that way if you can run it down and keep the muffler.

Here is the part number for that horn, I know you have one, is this the same setup used on lots of them or is this unique? 
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/21/tave8e3y.jpg)

No more sawzalling unobtainium muffler parts!  I had to have a crappy muffler shop weld mine at 5:00 on a friday heading out on a road trip and I considered myself lucky to get a replacement pipe for $150.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: NoRivets on June 20, 2013, 01:31:43 PM
Our hearts go out to you both on this journey!

I may have missed this so I'll ask -  

Do you have a coolant sensor?  If not, do you think it would have been helpful?

Some problems are just not avoided no matter how many sensors there are. :o


Love this thread and I hope things turn out great for you :) You're getting the best help available !


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Majikal-Joe on June 20, 2013, 01:39:47 PM
This is a great read glad ur posting it online and almost by the hr for us nonworking types that spent the summers at the campground hot-tub. I agree with the u-haul but you need your home too and I know how that feels. But be careful about those U-Ship ppl u might even see me on there...JFI Truck Leasing good luck with the move and I will be following you guy's and remember you still have a 30amp plug here in South Jersey till we sell!!!!


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 01:45:10 PM
His turbo ran through the original muffler and out the drivers side on his 4905A fwiw piping was a nightmare to remove I can see where going through the roof would free up space and make the piping a snap the problem is most people would not let a shop do it that way


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 02:03:06 PM
This thread is ok but without a little hands on diagnostic without the infra/red lol these 2 don't know if they even need a engine or not right now it is just a guessing game on a bulletin board IMO

 Black smoke now they didn't have before like Don I would go injector hunting pull those suckers check the tips and do a pop test while they out run a compression test

good luck  


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: usbusin on June 20, 2013, 03:13:56 PM
I am with you, Clifford.  I would want to know what caused the problem.  It may be something simple or it may be major, but I'd want to know before making a decision.  How many hours are involved in pulling injectors, doing a pop test and running a compression test?

Chris, maybe you (or the shop/mechanics) know what caused the problem and haven't posted what it was. 

Just my 2+ cents.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 03:25:24 PM
I am with you, Clifford.  I would want to know what caused the problem.  It may be something simple or it may be major, but I'd want to know before making a decision.  How many hours are involved in pulling injectors, doing a pop test and running a compression test?

Chris, maybe you (or the shop/mechanics) know what caused the problem and haven't posted what it was.  

Just my 2+ cents.

Given the symptoms, and running them by dozens of diesel mechanics & gurus across the lands - while the cause may have been minor, the damage done is highly likely to be fairly extensive, and will require a pretty major overhaul anyway.

Since we are planning to replace/overhaul everything that *could* have caused the problem when we overhaul - we don't find it overly useful to spend several hours on pre-diagnostics when it will be revealed when we get into the overhaul.


We know many folks here would love to know what happened, particularly those wanting the knowledge to prevent it from happening to them.  If you'd like to send us a few hundred dollars to pay for pre-diagnostics, I can send you our paypal address :)  Otherwise, we feel the odds of it being a simple/cheap fix is low enough that's not worth investing those dollars upfront.  We'll share what we find as we find out ourselves.

 - Cherie



Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 03:49:52 PM
To reiterate - as much as we all are eager to figure out exactly what happened - this is what we are hearing:

Don in CA - If you are going to get the bus here, don't bother doing anything else up there, you are just wasting money having them take things apart.

Interstate PowerSystems in MT - We need to take the engine out to do even a minimal rebuild, doing more work now to troubleshoot will just be wasted. Everything will be clear once we get started and get inside the engine.


Others keep telling us the same - we need to take the engine out and partway apart regardless whether we are in rebuilding or troubleshooting mode. So to avoid paying for wasted effort - first we need to figure out where we want to get the work done, and what the end goal is.

Don't worry - once we are inside the engine (wherever we are) - we'll share all the details of what we find.

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 04:07:24 PM
We all look at the same world through different colored glasses :'(  I love the I State  quote "Everything will be clear once we get started and inside the engine" as MasterCard would say priceless   


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: bobofthenorth on June 20, 2013, 04:17:02 PM
My hat's off to you Chris (and Cherie) for letting it all hang out here.  Personally I can't (and didn't) do that precisely because I have no patience with the 2nd guessing and ankle-biting that inevitably results.  You are on the ground with access to all the information and therefore in the best place to make the decisions.  You are helping many people learn about the process by your posts here but personally I couldn't be bothered.  So like I said - my hat's off to you for your patience.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 04:19:35 PM
So like I said - my hat's off to you for your patience.


Doing our best :)  It's mighty difficult sometimes, I have to admit.

But considering we're all alone up here with no one really to turn to in person for advice, we're very thankful for the variety of opinions to help us think things through. Especially the folks who have taken the time to call and talk things over with us. The occasional virtual ankle biting just seems to come with the territory.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: TexasBorderDude on June 20, 2013, 04:32:39 PM


Since we are planning to replace/overhaul everything that *could* have caused the problem when we overhaul - we don't find it overly useful to spend several hours on pre-diagnostics when it will be revealed when we get into the overhaul.





We all just hate the labor pains, just want to see a baby!


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 04:38:45 PM
Call it ankle biting or whatever I don't care but a week later you are still in the same position when someone does make a decision you are still going to be 2 or 3 weeks without your home on wheels if you are lucky and again Montana has some nice scenery  


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 04:52:01 PM
Call it ankle biting or whatever I don't care but a week later you are still in the same position when someone does make a decision you are still going to be 2 or 3 weeks without your home on wheels if you are lucky and again Montana has some nice scenery  

We'd rather take the time to learn all we can, consider all the options and make the right choice... for us... than jump into a decision too hastily.

We're not without our home on wheels.. we're sitting in it as we type, and all options allow us to continue living in it while the work is done.

 - Cherie


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 05:00:40 PM
oops forgot that the problem is it won't move without a little tlc


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Geoff on June 20, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
All I can do is shake my head-- I can't even get through the 12 pages of advice on this thread.

I'll be in Billings, MT in August.  Pay for my fuel and I'll bring my service truck.

I have no confidence in the shop you have your bus in.

--Geoff


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Dave5Cs on June 20, 2013, 06:00:52 PM
Now Clifford!.... stop it, ;D ;)

Dave5Cs


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 20, 2013, 06:08:47 PM
 :)yea I do get a little harsh sometimes Dave when nothing makes sense to me but I do wish them the best


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Dave5Cs on June 20, 2013, 06:34:08 PM
Your just upset you can't be there doing it uh? :o

Dave5Cs


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: baker4106 on June 20, 2013, 07:21:56 PM
Sorry I hadn't read your post before.   A fellow busnut told me about it.   I own a 1961 4106 and 6 years ago my engine did about the same thing.   It overheated and would not cool down while it was running.   What happened was the head cracked and allowed exhaust gases into the water jacket forcing the coolant out until the water pump became airlocked and couldn't move coolant until the engine was shut down.   Ended up with both heads cracked and other problems so we replaced with a used 8V71 that a friend had.   Ended up ok but costly as we live in Michigan and it died in Cincinnati, Ohio.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 20, 2013, 08:27:24 PM
I have no confidence in the shop you have your bus in.

We had a temporary drop in confidence when the serial number / model number mismatch had them confused for a bit. But though their part guy was completely lost, the mechanics weren't and they do have several genuine two-stroke guys on staff who have seen plenty of engines like ours.

Overall we are (so far) impressed with this shop.  Despite being a big shop with 14 bays (and a relatively pricey shop rate), they haven't pressured us or rushed us at all. They are happy to let us live in the bus while we are here, even while they are working. They are willing to let us watch and learn and be involved as we dive deeper into the engine. They have encouraged us to do our research, and to consult outside sources and other options. They are actively interested in hearing about alternative ideas that we have come up with. And they are even open to helping us relocate elsewhere if we decide that is best.

All these things inspire confidence. And we've heard from several bus nuts who have had good (though perhaps not cheap) experiences at this shop too, and no one with a bad first hand experience yet.

So...  What reason is there to lack confidence?

That they haven't gone any further doing diagnostics is at our request - based on the advice we've gotten from the shop here, and from many others we have consulted with.  We aren't in a rush.  We aren't far from home - we are home.  We have electricity and internet and shops and restaurants and even hiking trails nearby.

We are very happy to take some time to weigh our options before racking up shop hours.

It is the smart thing to do.

And that the shop hasn't been pressuring us at all to start giving them more billable work is the most confidence inspiring thing.

   - Chris


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: NonHippieBus on June 20, 2013, 11:05:54 PM
I'm personally hoping you'll end up with a 8v71 or 8v71T from Don so I can grab the popcorn and watch the progress in real time on the inter web and you pre-navigate the upgrade I'd love to do to our 4106.

6v92 repower will also be entertaining and definitely has its merits if you choose that course.  Don definitely has the skills to lead to a happy ending with this one.  Seems like a great choice.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: chessie4905 on June 21, 2013, 04:49:45 AM
 Will the 6V-92 tolerate the 2300 rpm speed all day long term that the 8v-71 is supposed to? It has been mentioned here that the 8v-92 won't.  I only ask this because of limited gearing options of the GM models.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: NoRivets on June 21, 2013, 06:42:08 AM
Wish you the best, but I'm DONE with this soap. Good Luck -

Not knowing what happened in the engine doesn't play in my brain too well. Can't read anymore --  too frustrating !  Saying what others are thinking !


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: pete36330 on June 21, 2013, 07:21:50 AM
SOOOOO,are we still at 14.500 dollars for a water pump and stuck thermostat? or??? like I said earlier Good luck ,,you will surely need it.
Now how about the trans?? and then?? what else are you gonna throw more money at ,,lot of people are going to have a super vacation on your money,,and by the way I wish you no ill will,,,just feel sorry for your plight and especially the way your handling all this


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: TexasBorderDude on June 21, 2013, 07:37:07 AM
See that 4106 over there?  Yeah, I'm pretty proud of it... it's worth $7,000

I've got $40,000 in it ::)


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: technomadia on June 21, 2013, 07:54:41 AM
Look folks..  we fully know that many of you would handle this very differently. Fully diagnose first, then just fix the things that are broken.

And that make perfect sense and is very logical - IF the goal is to get back on the road as quickly and inexpensively as possible.

Many of you have homes elsewhere to maintain, and your bus is a toy, hobby or vacation vehicle. You have jobs to get back to, grandkids to spoil, vacation destinations to get to or other projects awaiting your attention. You probably even have a garage 'back home' and bus friends where you can handle further repairs when you get there - at your own pace and expense.

That's not our situation.  This is our home, and we need to be able to rely on her. When we bought our bus two years ago, her history was a mystery.  We knew, and planned for, a major engine overhaul or re-powering. Every person we have presented the symptoms to agrees that regardless of the specifics of the initial cause, there is substantial damage here. Many have called us and talked in person, and after walking through it all - the consensus is - spending money on diagnosing upfront really doesn't buy us all that much, when our plan to rebuild/re-power will reveal and correct the causes anyway.

We are very consciously using this opportunity to get the engine into a reliable and trustable state..  for our peace of mind. Regardless if we could get by for a few grand in repairs, that's NOT what we want. That's not our goal.  Our goal isn't to patch and potentially limp further down the road to the next breakdown - it's to leave whatever shop we go to with a reliable and known state of our engine. It's time to do what we always planned to do anyway - get inside, and get everything as refreshed as possible.


And hey, that may not be the choice you'd make. And that's cool. We're not going to sit here and cackle you for making different choices than us.

The negativity coming from a small number of armchair mechanics who are not in our exact situation is very disheartening.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Len Silva on June 21, 2013, 08:20:21 AM
I think that you guys are exceptionally knowledgeable and prepared to deal with your situation in your own way.  I would give the benefit of the doubt to the naysayers because I think their heart is in the right place and they only want to help.

If you do end up with $40,000 in a $7,000 bus, so what?  There is not a better built bus anywhere than the 4106 at any price.  Just be glad you are not into boats.

Good luck, don't let the ********* get you down, we are all pulling for you in whatever direction you are headed.

Moderator edited for content: Keep it clean, no personal attacks please.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: TexasBorderDude on June 21, 2013, 08:34:20 AM
... the naysayers ... the *******

Given the choice above, count me among the naysayers! ;D ;D


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: eagle19952 on June 21, 2013, 08:40:51 AM
the consensus is - spending money on diagnosing upfront really doesn't buy us all that much, when our plan to rebuild/re-power will reveal and correct the causes anyway.

not knowing would kill me...but I am confident that you know the coach will not confidently get you to Bakersfield...or Timbucktoo in its current state, new t stats will not heal it.  :(

We are very consciously using this opportunity to get the engine into a reliable and trustable state..  for our peace of mind.<snipped> Our goal isn't to patch and potentially limp further down the road to the next breakdown - it's to leave whatever shop we go to with a reliable and known state of our engine. It's time to do what we always planned to do anyway - get inside, and get everything as refreshed as possible.

Bet others (naysayers too) would do it your way if they were prepared to do so.... ;D



The negativity coming from a small number of armchair mechanics who are not in our exact situation is very disheartening.  ???


ps I am easily revived.    ;D



Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Utahclaimjumper on June 21, 2013, 09:14:04 AM
See that 4106 over there?  Yeah, I'm pretty proud of it... it's worth $7,000

I've got $40,000 in it ::)
[/quote]  
 

   THIS COMING FROM A --------------------------------------------------------------------------------,      HAVING  HIS ENGINE REBUILT,,,"ON THE MOOCH"

Moderator Edit -  Let's be nice.  No personal insults please.


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: TexasBorderDude on June 21, 2013, 09:29:56 AM
Wow!  This is really gotten personal!   naysayer, *******, mooch..... just don't call me a banker! ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: luvrbus on June 21, 2013, 09:31:08 AM
Leave it to Len and Dan to start the name calling ??? who says even when they spend tons of money on their home as it is called it won't happen again it does happen because it is a diesel engine you see new Detroit in shops some have less than a 1000 miles and are blown I have saw lot's of rebuilt 71 series in GM's that blew with only 20,000 miles on a major rebuild

Anyway this has been explained makes no sense whatever to me so what if they get a 1 year warranty what is that for the 2 involved maybe 15,000 miles who knows you can repair one with minor damage with out a major overhaul too little of info is offered on this deal unless it all done on the phone if this is the case keep it on the phone and off the board, as one of the naysayers Len I do know who my parents are.
 
Time for the mods to step in on this piece of $#!% thread it has turn into a bad written soap IMO


Title: Re: URGENT Technomadia - Overheated and stranded in SE Montana
Post by: Nick Badame Refrig/ACC on June 21, 2013, 09:37:33 AM
Hi Folks,

This post has been reported to me for review.

It will now be locked down till further notice.

Nick-