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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Bob & Tracey on December 18, 2007, 04:52:49 PM



Title: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Bob & Tracey on December 18, 2007, 04:52:49 PM
Does anyone have expierence with the exhaust brake that is installed in the exhaust system before the muffler compared to a Jake brake on a 2 cycle Detroit?

Thanks,
Bob


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: prevost82 on December 18, 2007, 05:13:36 PM
Never heard of one on a 2 stroke ... I doubt if they would work all that well because they don't work as well on a 4 stroke compaired to a Jake.


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: larryh on December 18, 2007, 05:15:32 PM
Bob my company I worked for we put 5 Williams exhaust brakes on 5 over the road line trucks at first 10,000 mile service I installed Jake brakes on all five due to driver complaints and refusing to drive them any more this was on trucks running  Pacheco Pass and the GrapeVine and  the Tehachphi grades day in and day out,

LarryH

ps. one driver said he would have more brakeing standing on running board and dragging a foot.


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: boogiethecat on December 18, 2007, 05:19:30 PM
I've seen them on DD 2 stroke school busses.

My take, from personal experience, all with the same bus as it gained goodies over the years:


Scale 1-10, coming down 6% grades (the grapevine mostly):

No brakes other than service brakes: 0 (arsclencher for sure) :(

Exhaust brakes: 2 (still an arsclencher)  :(

Jake brakes: 6 (much easier on the ars muscles)  :)

Telma retarder: 10 (Don't even think about it anymore)  :)  :)  :)


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: makemineatwostroke on December 18, 2007, 05:28:57 PM
Some have had problems with breaking the compresson ring on 2 strokes equipped with exhaust brakes


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Jerry32 on December 18, 2007, 06:56:51 PM
exhaust brakes are a waste of time and money. The engine needs to be in high revs to work at all and then hard to tell of they are doing any good. Jerry


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Lin on December 18, 2007, 07:24:14 PM
Having never driven with either, I am perfectly unqualified to comment.  I am not up to installing an aux brake yet, but will probably have to in the future.  Are the Telma brakes still made?  What is the downside to them?  I believe there are also some other retarder systems, maybe hydraulic, that are integrated into the transmission.  Aside from researching those, Jake brakes to seem to be the standard for the heavy transport industry.  You probably could not go wrong with one.


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: boogiethecat on December 18, 2007, 07:51:14 PM
Hi Lin,

I wouldn't waste my time with exhaust brakes either.  Lots of expense and very little help on a grade.  That said, an exhaust brake is better than nothing for sure, but not by much...

Telma is still made, you bet.  They are almost a requirement these days on all European trucks.. we here in America are "getting it" but slowly as always.


Jakes are good, many trucks and busses have them and they have an excellent safety and reliability history.  Highly recommended.

Telmas are better than anything if you can install one.  Telmas won't install on many busses though, due to lack of space or too short a driveshaft.  My front engine Bluebird was a cinch to add a telma to, but my Crown was much more difficult.  They make two types- one that  goes in the middle of the driveshaft (called "axial) and one (called "focal") that mounts on the rear end.  My Crown required a Focal style and now all I have left for a driveshaft is a 3" piece plus the slip spline joint.  Really short!!

The only thing I can see as a downside to a Telma besides the cost (new about 6 grand plus installation) is that when full on they eat 150 amps or so at 12 volts.  So you either have to have a battery bank that will power it for the full duration of the longest grade you'd ever encounter, or stick in a hefty alternator, or both.  Other than that, the Telma provides me ABSOLUTELY the safest way I've EVER come down a grade, period.

Hydraulic retarders aren't much good for grades because they dump the energy they eat in the form of heat into your automatic transmissions' oil.  Unless you have a whopper of an oil cooler (you won't) it won't last the grade before overheating the tranny.  The telma makes hot air out of the energy it absorbs and that just blows away under the bus. No big deal!!!

As time goes on I will wager that you'll see MANY more Telma's being spec'd in, and fewer Jakes.  They are basically much simpler (no wearing parts) quiet (absolutely soundless) and much more efficient at slowing a vehicle than Jakes ever were.

Here's a photo of the Telma I stuck into my Crown.  It's sitting on a "high pinion" rear end which raised it up enough that my ever-so-short driveshaft now has excellent angles.
It was quite a ride to stuff all that into the old girl!!!



Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: TomC on December 18, 2007, 10:41:16 PM
Rest assured that an exhaust brake cannot be used on a 2 stroke engine.  Why-because all the back pressure created by the butterfly valve in the exhaust will be absorbed by the blower, since the blower on the Detroits are what is called a positive displacement pump.  Hence you'd burn up the blower in a very short period of time with an exhaust brake.  On 2 stroke Detroits, only a Jake or Pacbrake are available (same idea, different manufacturers).  You can use an exhaust brake on a 4 stroke, but it only produces about 150-250hp of braking, compared to around 400hp for a Jake brake, or up to 800 hp for the Telma electric retarder.  Good Luck, TomC


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: larryh on December 19, 2007, 07:44:38 AM
I thought the question was exhaust brakes compared to Jake brakes. Then everybody started asking and remarking about telma retarders not even connected to engine except via driveshaft which 95 per cent of our buses cannot use anyway no how. back to question exhaust brakes vrs Jacobs brake no comparision on 2 strokers.

LarryH


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: boogiethecat on December 19, 2007, 09:10:12 AM
Tom, I got my original exhaust brakes off of Crown school bus that had a pancake 2 stroke DD in it (6/71 I think), blower and all.  Evidently it worked well enough to be safe for the school system, and it was a factory install, not an aftermarket.  So they do happen although I won't argue if it's a wise thing to do to your engine or not...

Larry, sorry, I get carried away when people start talking about engine braking systems.  I know the question was addressing exhaust brakes vs Jakes, but it did also ask if anyone had experience with the two, which I do, firsthand.  When these discussions come up, I always like to give the whole story, because some of us just might be able to use a product that is superior to either of the others, and I think when safety is an issue one should know all the options.  I'm in a good position to actually talk about all three systems since I've installed and used all three on my bus, starting with nothing, then installing an exhaust brake and gradually moving through Jakes up to the Telma... and from that experience I feel that I can make quite informed comments on them, and should.  This is all about "insurance" as far as I see it, and everyone with a bus who drives the grades should know all the options...

Cheers
Gary


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Lin on December 19, 2007, 10:18:22 AM
I actually appreciate it when the replies here, aside from covering the subject, include deeper information.  Sometimes the most useful tips are just dropped in.  Thanks all, Lin


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: HB of CJ on December 19, 2007, 03:38:05 PM
Way way back in 1970 or soooos, the 1963 Crown Super Coach 92-passenger 40-foot 3-axle 10-wheeler school bus I drove part time had a 220 hp 743 inch Cummins engine with a single stage Jake.  Did run the Ridge Route (the north half) both ways loaded with 50 to 60 high school kids.  The Jake absorbed more power than the Cummins put out!  Never had to touch the service brakes.

My current 1974 Crown 40-foot-3 axle 10-wheeler ex-schoolie maybe some day to become a motorcoach has the Williams exhaust brake.  The bus has a 250 hp non turbo 855 Cummins engine.  If memory serves correctly (quite suspect!) I would say the Jake worked at least twice as good and perhaps three times as good as the Williams exhaust brake.  Subjective.  Hope this helps.  :) :) :)


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: DrivingMissLazy on December 19, 2007, 03:43:09 PM
I thought the question was exhaust brakes compared to Jake brakes. Then everybody started asking and remarking about telma retarders not even connected to engine except via driveshaft which 95 per cent of our buses cannot use anyway no how. back to question exhaust brakes vrs Jacobs brake no comparision on 2 strokers.

LarryH

Larry, I have to agree with the others, the other information is valuable to some, maybe not to you, but there are 1600 other users on the board also. I suspect that many had never heard of the info about the Thelma alternative.

Richardd


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: larryh on December 19, 2007, 04:36:23 PM
Richard I will not answer any other questions on this board then. That is how a good infomation gets hijacked and never found again sorry to have bothered.

LarryH


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: boogiethecat on December 19, 2007, 06:23:15 PM
Oh come on Larry, don't be a bad sport.
Chill out a bit. 
This entire board has been a very civil place for quite a while, and nobody's trying to annoy anyone.  Threads change course during discussions, that's the way it is on the internet. We're not in elementary school anymore, we're adults and as such we oughta be able to add ideas and thoughts to discussions as we feel necessary, without being afraid that the principal will yell at us.
There's nothing being hijacked about this thread other than your posts about this thread getting hijacked!! (and maybe this post)
Ok, I've apologized for mentioning things other than Jakes and Exhaust brakes in this thread, and now I've said my peace. You can delete me now if you want.
Eeeek.


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: larryh on December 19, 2007, 06:37:26 PM
I refuse to get in a pissing match on here if the shoe fits wear it.

LarryH


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Dreamscape on December 19, 2007, 06:48:32 PM
I don't see anything wrong with adding additional information about this topic. I learned something from it, never heard of Telma. Mixing information on a thread will always happen, forever.



Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Tony LEE on December 19, 2007, 08:44:11 PM
"Richard I will not answer any other questions on this board then. "

OK.  Your choice Larry.

I appreciate the efforts of people who read behind the question and give extra information because it helps those who don't know enough to ask the right question. In this case, everyone has heard of Jake brakes, some have heard of exhaust brakes and very few know anything about the advantages and disadvantages of hydraulic or eddy current or other types of retarders.

 Thanks to a few members, we are all a bit better educated. Well done.


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: JohnEd on December 20, 2007, 01:29:28 AM
Another small step for man......  The thing that has always stuck in the back of my mind, and I know that isn't all that great a distance, is that each and every one of the AUX braking systems has one vital link in common.  The drive shaft and U joints.  That gives me pause cause i have had those fail on me a lot more times than i care to recall.  U joints!  It is really nice to see that Thelma can be mounted to the differential and lashed to the input U joint yoke.  Boy does that seem like a real improvement in safety.  Europe ahead again?  First their Auto Select shifter now this.  Where will it all end?  OPPS!  What if I break one of those floating axles?

John


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: DrivingMissLazy on December 20, 2007, 04:54:25 AM
Another small step for man......  The thing that has always stuck in the back of my mind, and I know that isn't all that great a distance, is that each and every one of the AUX braking systems has one vital link in common.  The drive shaft and U joints.  That gives me pause cause i have had those fail on me a lot more times than i care to recall.  U joints!  It is really nice to see that Thelma can be mounted to the differential and lashed to the input U joint yoke.  Boy does that seem like a real improvement in safety.  Europe ahead again?  First their Auto Select shifter now this.  Where will it all end?  OPPS!  What if I break one of those floating axles?

John
Since the service brakes would be cold I would think you would just stop and pull off the road. I am certain the service brakes would be good for a couple of complete stops, especially since they would be cold. That is one of the reasons for having the supplemental braking system.

Richard


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Alan Baker on December 20, 2007, 05:18:35 AM
 ??? I was convinced with LarryH's 1st post. This has been a good overview of aux breaking. Too bad the Telmah retarder won't fit on most of our drive shafts. With the exception of the price, it sure sounds like the only way to go down hill.
  With the current price of fuel digging into the money I've set aside to see the big down grades in the west I may be fated to roam the NE corridor. I've got Jakes but its over kill on the Atlantic seaboard.
Alan


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: DrivingMissLazy on December 20, 2007, 06:20:27 AM
??? I was convinced with LarryH's 1st post. This has been a good overview of aux breaking. Too bad the Telmah retarder won't fit on most of our drive shafts. With the exception of the price, it sure sounds like the only way to go down hill.
  With the current price of fuel digging into the money I've set aside to see the big down grades in the west I may be fated to roam the NE corridor. I've got Jakes but its over kill on the Atlantic seaboard.
Alan
Alan, great to see you posting. Welcome back.

BTW, If you ever get as far west as West Virginia and travel the WV Turnpike, you will be glad you have your Jakes. LOL

Richard


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Brian Diehl on December 20, 2007, 07:42:49 AM

BTW, If you ever get as far west as West Virginia and travel the WV Turnpike, you will be glad you have your Jakes. LOL


I concurr with Richard.  I've done the WV Turnpike with and without Jake Brakes.  Running the turnpike with Jakes is a lot less stressfull.  I had cold brakes at the end of every down hill stretch AND was still able to keep up with traffic with the Jakes.  Without Jakes I was on the brakes a lot more and had to run a gear down, which made me slower than traffic.  Not a big deal in the end as either way got me home or to my destination safely.  However, now that I've run it both ways I prefer running with Jakes for a more relaxed driving experience.


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Alan Baker on December 20, 2007, 12:24:39 PM
Actuall, I run the WV turnpike quite often. I married a girl from Findlay, OH.

I do have Jakes and love them. I feel very safe on Sandstone Mtn which I crest at aprox 27 mph. 84 Eagle 6v92 TA. I try to stick with the old truckers rule of going down in the same gear you went up. I have to admit 2nd is a litte slow for me with the Jakes full on so I pop it into 3rd.

Hi Richard and everyone I'll be leaving for Bussin' soon so this may be my last chance to wish you all a Very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

Alan


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: HB of CJ on December 20, 2007, 01:57:23 PM
For whatever it is worth, (?) we had an old two-axle American LaFrance ladder truck which had an electric driveline retarder.  I don't remember what manufacture.  It was an amazing device, very quiet and would slow down that overweight 44,000# monster in no time and space at all.  It was hooked up thru (I think!) the brake light circuit or perhaps the brake pedal itself.

The exhaust brake in my present Crown works kinda and is very quiet.  The Jake in my old school bus was noisy (the kids loved it!) and worked very very well.  The electric driveshaft retarder on the fire truck worked the very best of all, but we were told not to park her off road in the grass or weeds.  Apparently someting underneath the chassis got quite hot.  Again subjective. 

I do not know if any presently available model of electric retarder would fit in our older coaches.  May, may not.  Perhaps others will enlighten us.  If not, then that leaves us with two (2) other options....the potatoe brake or a Jake.  Yes, I also have seen (not driven) exhaust brakes on Crown school buses with a 671 2 stroke.  Go figure.  My future plans include a Jake.  :) :) :)


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Brian Diehl on December 20, 2007, 02:31:07 PM
I feel very safe on Sandstone Mtn which I crest at aprox 27 mph. 84 Eagle 6v92 TA.
Alan

Crested last week at 55+ mph ....  400HP ISM and AutoShift and GCVW with my TOAD of 35500
Before the repower I was right there with you ... though a little closer to 35mph


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: Reddog on December 20, 2007, 02:35:35 PM
Pokey (our '81 Bluebird Wanderlodge, 3208NA) had no aux. braking devices (big reason we sold it). I was told that you could not put an exhaust brake on the 3208 because the head gaskets wouldn't take the pressure, so I suppose not all types are compatible with all engines. Thomas has a Telma retarder, it works fantastic. My 99 Dodge has an exhaust brake, it works very well too. I have been in big trucks with Jakes, very impressive as well. I guess that having had a bus without anything but the brakes, I'd go with ANYTHING that would help slow the rig down and keep the brakes cool.
Doug Engel, Gunnison, CO


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: white-eagle on December 20, 2007, 07:39:19 PM
i've not found any used jakes.  new ones are $5k plus install at williams.  i'd never heard of a telma.  if i have to pay $5k why not $6k for a better system.

larryh, i thought your original helpful comment showed you knew some good things.  you should keep posting.  i am glad the telma's were mentioned, however.

i'm really glad we're goin to Bussin 08 where the "experts" are.


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: JohnEd on December 20, 2007, 11:07:36 PM
Richard,

If my Jakes kept everything "cool" and i could come down the grapevine grade, 8%, at 70mph....I would probably get in that far.  Would service brakes stop me at that speed on that grade in a 9?

Thanks,

John



Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: JACKRABBIT4106 on December 20, 2007, 11:19:04 PM
For those of you instred there is a set of used jakes on the E place.
Erik/Melissa
 4106
http://cgi.ebay.com/JAKE-BRAKE-FOR-DETROIT-DIESEL-6-8V71-6-8V92-N-R_W0QQitemZ130184547661QQihZ003QQcategoryZ50466QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: DrivingMissLazy on December 21, 2007, 06:00:36 AM
Richard,

If my Jakes kept everything "cool" and i could come down the grapevine grade, 8%, at 70mph....I would probably get in that far.  Would service brakes stop me at that speed on that grade in a 9?

Thanks,

John


John, since so many of the large vehicles coming down the grapevine do not have Jakes, then yes I feel certain that one stop, from 70 mph, with cold brakes would be no problem at all. I know that on my Eagle or 4104 it would have been a piece of cake. Perhaps Russ, with his many years of traversing the grapevine in a seated coach could elaborate on this.

Richard


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: boogiethecat on December 21, 2007, 09:34:21 AM
Manasst (and others)
Before you guys write off  the possibility of a Telma going into your bus, why don't you check it out a bit.  Their "focal" retarder series mounts right on to the rear end and eats 3.5" of driveshaft at most.  The Focal series was specifically designed for rear engine busses and vehicles with short drivelines.
 I know there's a lot of vehicles that won't accomodate a telma, but there's quite a few that will as I understand it from reading the Telma literature.  For example with  Rockwell R series axles, depending on the yoke you use you only need to shorten the driveline from between 1.4 to 3 inches with 180 series axles, or 3.3 to 3.5" for 160 series axles.
There may be hope...
Cheers
G

Ref:  http://www.telmausa.com/TELMATECHWEB/DOC/PDF/TIL05046%20DRIVE%20SHAFT%20SHORTENING%20MERITOR%20FOCAL.pdf
and
http://www.telmausa.com/TELMATECHWEB/tech.html


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: JohnEd on December 21, 2007, 10:31:26 AM
Richard,

Thank you for that reassurance.  I have always needed some small protection from myself and I have little doubt that i would be a heavy user of Jake, if I had it, and become dependent.  Service brakes as the "aux system" would be my concept.

Thanks again,

John


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: RJ on December 21, 2007, 01:16:27 PM

John, since so many of the large vehicles coming down the grapevine do not have Jakes, then yes I feel certain that one stop, from 70 mph, with cold brakes would be no problem at all. I know that on my Eagle or 4104 it would have been a piece of cake. Perhaps Russ, with his many years of traversing the grapevine in a seated coach could elaborate on this.

Richard


John & Richard -

IBME that a fully loaded Jake brake-equipped MC-9 (44 passengers and three full baggage bays) with either the 8V71/HT-754 or 6V92TA/HT-754 will hold 62 - 65 mph in high gear coming down off the 6% Grapevine on I-5 without having to touch the brakes or throttle.  MCI 102A3 with the 8V92 would actually slow down - had to feather the throttle some to maintain the 62-65 target speed.

Richard - the majority of 18-wheelers and coaches on the Grapevine today all have Jakes or equivalent.  (BTW, the 18-wheelers are restricted to 35 mph on this grade.  Buses are not.)

As for the Telmas, the 1977 "New Look" Flxible transits we had at the transit property had these installed on the front (input pinion side) of the V-drive Rockwell rear axles.  These were integrated into the service brake pedal - the harder you braked, the more the Telma would work.  Transit brakes are abused more than any other coach, and the Telmas doubled the lining life of the friction brakes.  I remember seeing one of these on the hoist in the shop one time, and thinking that the space was awfully tight around it.  Probably wouldn't fit on a GMC, where there's less space than a Flx.

Most coaches have sufficient brakes to completely stop the vehicle on a downhill grade a few times before going away totally due to fade.  The thing you have to remember is that your stopping distances are much, much greater on a downhill grade, due to gravity working against you, and especially with these heavy vehicles.  It's these longer stopping distances that kills the brakes with the heat build-up.

And JohnEd, if you want to come off the Grapevine at 70+ in your MC-9, that's your decision.  May not be a safe decision, but it's yours. 

FWIW & HTH. . .

 ;)


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: makemineatwostroke on December 21, 2007, 01:46:51 PM
Boogiethecat, the reason Telmas are popular in Europe is because Jake never built brakes for the European truck engines.Their market has been Cat,Detroit,Cummins and Mack, it was in 2007 before they would build for the MBE4000 engine. they may build for others now but not in the past


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: DrivingMissLazy on December 21, 2007, 01:48:11 PM

Richard - the majority of 18-wheelers and coaches on the Grapevine today all have Jakes or equivalent.  (BTW, the 18-wheelers are restricted to 35 mph on this grade.  Buses are not.)

Thanks Russ.

30 years ago when I was doing most of my driving in that area, Jakes were not apparent on most of the vehicles and there were a few that were significantly exceeding the 35 mile speed. Definitely nor safe or recommended. That is very definitely a wicked downgrade.

Quote

Most coaches have sufficient brakes to completely stop the vehicle on a downhill grade a few times before going away totally due to fade.

I should have mentioned that I was only talking about coaches. I never had my 18 wheeler over the grapevine. I did miss a gear once coming down the Baker grade (toward LA) with a very big load of surplus gensets from the military surplus center in Utah. I was able, with not problem, to bring the rig to a stop however so that I could get it back into a suitable gear.

As Russ stated, I also believe the brakes on any large rig are capable of making two or three total stops on any large grade as long as they are not hot to start with and that they are in properly maintained condition.

Richard

Probably much more so than when I was driving one so many years ago. LOL


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: JohnEd on December 21, 2007, 08:17:28 PM
Russ,

I stand admonished and I deserve to be.  It is in my nature to push the limits...not bragging, just being honest.  I don't feel unique, totally, in that regard.  Actually, I am a lot more responsible than i sound.  I don't have an MCI 9 but when I do I am sure I will develop the appropriate caution.  You and yours are safe, honest.

My first comment here was that I had bad feelings about letting a jake lull me into a sense of security.  I have never stopped anything like a 9 from "speed" on a serious downgrade and I honestly didn't know if it could be done.  I remember in Pa. that missing a shift was a disaster for those guys and they sat in a very low gear all the way to the bottom.  As a kid I hear adults say that if a truck got going over a certain speed it couldn't be stopped.  That stuck in my mind all these years.   Guess it doesn't make all that much sense that so many truckers would all be that cavelier.

Thanks Russ,

John


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: houndbus on December 22, 2007, 05:10:21 AM
OK...now everyone will know how little I know about Jakes.  I have a 4106 without Jakes here in Cincinnati.  So far, only traveled within 200 mile radius of Cincy with no problems with braking.  However, the day is going to come then I want to cross Jellico mountain heading for Florida or someplace else with some really big grades  I understand the value and use of the engine for braking.  Having said all that, here are my questions:
1. What are jakes and how do they work?
2. Are they necessary?
3. If yes to question 2, when are they necessary?
4. If it is determined I need them, where would I get them and much would I expect to pay for them?
5. How would I install them?

I realize this is a tall order but appreciate input to any and all the above
Thank you  ???


Title: Re: exhaust brake compred to a Jake brake
Post by: JohnEd on December 22, 2007, 10:05:41 AM
Hound,

Yes you do.

There was a complete Jake sys including the high rise valve  covers  on ebay.  Make it a favorite search and start bidding.

I only know what they tell me. ;)

John