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Author Topic: Need a VS2-8  (Read 6386 times)
Dallas
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2006, 11:51:14 AM »

Heres more
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Dallas
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2006, 11:54:21 AM »

and more
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Dallas
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2006, 11:57:22 AM »

And One More
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Buffalo SpaceShip
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2006, 12:20:12 PM »

Well, if it IS a VH, it sure don't look much different than a VS2-8. I'm attaching a pic of that tranny that was in my old Fishbowl conversion.

It's clearly NOT a V-730, that's for sure.

Any Allison experts out there...

bb

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Brian Brown
4108-216 w/ V730
Longmont, CO
Dallas
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2006, 12:43:20 PM »

The VH, VS1 and VS2 all used the same case, unfortunately.
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2006, 01:25:49 PM »

The VH, VS1 and VS2 all used the same case, unfortunately.
Ack! Then I guess you're right, Dallas... if it says VH on the case, it probably is one.

On the upside, since the case is the same, the installation of a VS2-8 should be pretty simple, Christy. I would make sure that your cooling is addressed by using the proper oil-to-coolant cooler. The transits didn't spend much time up at speed, so yours may not have a large enough cooler for highway use and/or for the VS2-8. Check every hose diameter to a stock VS2-8 setup (like the Fishbowls or rare 4905) to insure adequate oil flow.

And your shifting mechanism looks cludged-together and much too exposed. It's no wonder you've had issues with it.

As suggested, do to to find the higher OD VS2-8... otherwise you might find a hill it simply won't climb being so high-geared. And hopefully you have no desires to go the 110mph that the 0.60 OD would give you.  Tongue

Lots of folks swear by these VS2-8's. Don Schwanke had one in his 4905 and also recalled fondly a 4106/VS2-8 coach that he could run at 80mph all day and get something like 11mpg. Just be careful in the hills!

bb
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Brian Brown
4108-216 w/ V730
Longmont, CO
Christyhicks
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2006, 03:43:33 PM »

Ok, so I'm both vindicated Cheesy, AND disappointed †Cry. †ha ha

Now, time to answer some questions and help me wrap my brain about what's been bothering me. †

Why has this transmission not crapped sooner? †Is that an oil cooler on the side of it Dallas? †Or, what is visible on the pics I sent you. . .we thought it was an oild cooler, since it had water lines and hydraulic lines to it, but are not sure. †

We purhcased this bus and have put about 5,000 miles on it since we purchased it, most of those highway miles. . in fact, almost all of them highway miles. †If it is true that the motor has approximately 20,000 miles on it, based on color match and stuff. . .general appearance of the transmission, it sure looks like it's been there at least that long, if not longer. †The bus was converted in 1988, Sundance conversions, very nice quality. . .and still in really good shape 20 yrs later.

It is likely, based on common sense, that at the time and after the conversion, there would have to be one of two situations. . .either the oil cooler (if it is one) made the difference, or it had something other than a VH transmission. †I just don't think you'd get almost 20 years on a VH, based on what everyone is saying. †

Of course, it is possible that someone could have slipped a VH in because the VS or 730 failed, except the transmission sure didn't look like someone replaced it right before we bought it. . .too much gunk on it and the bolts and stuff. †It's possible, but I just don't think it makes sense. †The bus was obviously used not too long before we purchased it, and it certainly wasn't detailed or doctored up for sale, in fact, it pretty much looked like he just quit using it. †The sheets were on the bed, towels in the cabinet, cleaning supplies. . .misc hardware items, toilet paper, blue stuff. . . pretty much it looked like they unpacked it after their last trip and left it in Florida, flying back to Detroit (which is what he indicated). †It was fairly clean, but clearly not CLEAN, if you understand what I mean.

The seller had put in an engine, 8V71, caps on the front and back, new air bags, bushings, etc. †. . . and he had the bus serviced before we purchased it, and from the looks of the oil and such, I believe him. †I think we even have an invoice somewhere around. . . like $500 or 700 for the service I think if I remember clearly. †So, if the guy was willing to maintain the unit with whatever it needed, even fix it up, and even had the oil change and stuff done before selling, why would he slip in a useless transmission? †And, he was using the unit himself, even taking it to Arcadia for the last bus gathering, (hoping to sell it), driving it from Detroit to Florida. †I suppose it is possible that it could have crapped on him in Florida and he had them put any old transmission in it to sell it, but it just doesn't fit his behavior and also, the repair shop would have had to have known that was not a good combination, so they would have had to be in on it too. †I'm sorry, but although I know it is possible, I just don't think it makes much sense. †

so, here are my questions, and keep in mind, I am NOT a mechanic in even the slightest sense, which is why I'm asking to start with:
I understand that the VH is an inner-city transmission, and am I right that the big concern is overstressing it, or overheating it?
Would the oil cooler, if it is an oil cooler, make a difference?

If the VH and VS are the same, identical sized, etc, is there any chance that someone would have swapped cases or is this even possible? †
I'm concerned that the VS2-8 is no longer produced, but I'm looking at the work involved to change it also, and the other question that comes to mind: †I've been told that the 730 will give us less fuel efficiency and a little less speed. . .what can we really expect in terms of numbers, on a bus that currently gets 7 mpg and runs 70+ if you want it to. †It also seems to climb hills fine, although we haven't climbed any extremely steep, long hills. †

So, if you had to change this transmission, knowing that you have two basic options, a VS2-8, and a 730, AND knowing that the VS-8 would be a straight in and out with maybe $1000-1500 invested, and that the 730 would be about $500-700 higher and would require installing a shifter, what would you do? †You have to keep in mind, we will own this bus for another year or two at the most (we hope), so that complicates the problem. †

Now, I'm sure Larry already knows what he wants to do, but I'd like to know if, when weighing all the information, i come up with the same plan he does, and he also would like as much information as possible himself, as he has little experience with these transmissions, especially in a bus application. †OK, give it to me! †Christy Hicks
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2006, 04:21:39 PM »

Heck-if you're only keeping it for another couple of years, maybe the V730 would be too much.  But consider the resale value between the two.  Having the V730 may make the difference in being able to sell it readily or not.  Personally, the V730 is the way to go.  There is a 4.11 rear end and also a 3.90 (I think) rear end that could be changed out to give better top end.  Personally, I have a V730 in my bus now, have riden in buses with the VS transmission, and much prefer the performance of the V730.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2006, 05:18:50 PM »

I just veiwed Brians old FB with the VS2-8 and my VH9 and looked at the pictures posted I would have to say it is a VH9  Luke asked how many valves are on the top of the tranny and the VH9  only has the one and the VS2-8 has two now I didn't walk to the third bus with a V730 but we all can easlily see it's a bigger unit.  Smiley
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68 5303 Fishbowl 40' x 102"
6V71  V730 4:10
Dallas
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2006, 05:40:25 PM »

OK Christy, Here goes nothin'

I'm not an expert on these transmissions or swaps. I'm only going by personal preference and by observation and personal experience.



CH>>>so, here are my questions, and keep in mind, I am NOT a mechanic in even the slightest sense, which is why I'm asking to start with:
I understand that the VH is an inner-city transmission, and am I right that the big concern is overstressing it, or overheating it?
Would the oil cooler, if it is an oil cooler, make a difference?<<<CH
I believe some of the biggest concerns with the VH are that it was never built to put behind an 8V71. That means it has probably got a smaller input shaft, lighter gears, lighter pumps, lighter pinion and bevel gears, etc. The oil cooler that you mentioned is an oil/coolant heat exchanger.
Since all of the parts are generally lighter and built for stop and go traffic with smaller engines, it can't be expected to do the same job with up to 100 more horsepower for very long. That's like swapping the hydrostatic drive out of a 777IH tractor and putting it in a 1080 Case tractor. Shear power will rip it to pieces. One thing, the oil cooler is probably pretty robust since the VH spent most of it's life in hydrualic mode as a transit coach. It still couldn't hurt to supplement anything you put in there with the biggest auxiliary cooler possible.


CH>>If the VH and VS are the same, identical sized, etc, is there any chance that someone would have swapped cases or is this even possible? <<CH
From looking at the diagrams and pictures of the internals, I don't think someone could have physically gotten that particular swap made, but then you would have to ask someone who has worked on the VH and VS side by side. Call Luke! or don Fairchild.
CH>>I'm concerned that the VS2-8 is no longer produced, but I'm looking at the work involved to change it also, and the other question that comes to mind:  I've been told that the 730 will give us less fuel efficiency and a little less speed. . .what can we really expect in terms of numbers, on a bus that currently gets 7 mpg and runs 70+ if you want it to.  It also seems to climb hills fine, although we haven't climbed any extremely steep, long hills.<<CH
Even though the VS is no longer produced, I don't think the V730 is either. The V730 probably has better parts availability, but the VS will be a lot easier swap, since you will still be using the original Bennet Air shifter and electrical connections. Whether you choose the 730 or the VS you'll likely see somewhat better fuel mileage over the VH since you won't be running against the governor all the time. I'm not sure what the OD on the 730 is, but you will still be able to do freeway speeds and be able to climb more efficiently. The VS you will want is the newer one with the 0.72 OD to give you better highway speed and still have good hill climbing capabilities. Whatever transmission you choose, either will keep you in the power band of the engine much better than the VS  

CH>>So, if you had to change this transmission, knowing that you have two basic options, a VS2-8, and a 730, AND knowing that the VS-8 would be a straight in and out with maybe $1000-1500 invested, and that the 730 would be about $500-700 higher and would require installing a shifter, what would you do?  You have to keep in mind, we will own this bus for another year or two at the most (we hope), so that complicates the problem.<<CH
Taking into account my prefernces, and those of others, like Tom who has a lot more experience with the V730, I think I would still lean toward the VS2-8 swap for cost and ease of replacement of the VH. I understand that the V730 swap will probably bring a better resale in the future, but I can't see that you would earn any of your investment back through use in the meantime. Remember, the V730 will require more sweat equity than the VS2-8, plus if you want to set the VS up to shift selectively, I or others can give you the diagrams to do that.  

CH>>Now, I'm sure Larry already knows what he wants to do, but I'd like to know if, when weighing all the information, i come up with the same plan he does, and he also would like as much information as possible himself, as he has little experience with these transmissions, especially in a bus application.  OK, give it to me!  Christy Hicks<<CH
In the end, It all boils down to what you and Larry want this transmission swap to do for you. I've given you all the predjudicial information I can from both sides of the topic, essentially it's up to you guys to decide. Good Luck!

If you decide to go with the VS swap, I can send scans of the different diagrams you'll need and any other information I have available. I would offer the same for the V730, but my book has pretty much seen the end of it's life span and is missing a few of it's essential parts.

Dallas
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Buffalo SpaceShip
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2006, 06:05:10 PM »

Christy, there's definitely an oil cooler in yours if there's coolant and tranny oil lines running to it. If you go on any more trips with it, you really should have an oil temp gauge on the tranny sump to know exactly how hot she's running. If I didn't have a temp guage on my V730, I would have ruined it, because it warned me when the cooler fan went out.

And who knows... maybe the VH will "keep on tickin'" if you don't go out of your way to over-stress it. Ratings aside, transit service is generally tougher on the transmission internals with the starting, stopping, and shifting. Highway service just generates a lot of heat mostly.

 Is there a tach on your coach? I suspect that a VH will be pulling some serious revs. at highway speeds, which puts more stress on the tranny AND engine. The only saving grace is your diff. is a 4-1/8, a fairly high ratio (higer than the 4905s even). The transits they put the VH's into were geared much higher... between 5 and 6.

The VS will go into your coach much easier than the V730... no shifter, no extra bulkhead mods... maybe no cooler mods, either, if yours is sized adequately. Since it's a temporary coach, maybe you shouldn't go throwing a lot of cash into it. But I do worry about un-modified VS's when it comes to hills, because they WILL upshift on you going down a grade. If you have Jakes, it helps, but not if the roads become too twisty... you'll still be in the wrong gear, standing on the service brakes too often when the Jakes cease to be effective due to engine speed.

The V-730 shifts a lot nicer, will hold itself in a gear range, and has more pep driving around town and through campsites. But, as you know, it will burn more fuel at the same speed because it's lower-geared. You'll still get better mileage with the V730 than your VH9. I get almost 8mpg at 70mph with my 4108/V730 (and N65 injectors even). And I suspect a VS2-8 could get over 10mpg at the same speed!

If it were mine, first I'd install a tach and tranny oil temp gauge and do some driving. If you want to stick with the VH9 for awhile, I'd avoid towing anything, that's for sure.

Hope this helps,
Brian
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Brian Brown
4108-216 w/ V730
Longmont, CO
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« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2006, 01:09:50 AM »

Brian,

I have wanted to put a transmission temperature gauge on my V730. Can you tell me where yours is installed into the tranny and how is it done? What type of gauge and sender do you have? I would love to see photos if you have any.

Thanks,
Barn Owl
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« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2006, 09:19:00 AM »

Barn Owl,

I have two senders, one post-converter and one post- cooler (I have a big aftermarket oil-to-air cooler instead of a stock coolant-to-oil cooler). I can select which sender I'm receiving the signal from. I also have a sender from the engine oil to measure its temp. on the same gauge, and one spare position to mount one more sender somewhere.

You'll also see the alarmastat that turns on the cooler fan at 180deg.

The previous owner did all of this work, so I can't claim credit for it. But it's a pretty slick setup.

HTH,
Brian
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Brian Brown
4108-216 w/ V730
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« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2006, 11:30:35 AM »

well, so, started checking on a price on the V730, and it looks like the tranny, torque converter, shifter cable, dogbone, etc., would probably run close to $3000 by the time we are done, buying from I-44 Bus Sales. .  does this sound high to you, or not?  Christy Hicks
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« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2006, 12:55:08 PM »

When we still had our 4106 I gave a lot of thought to changing to an automatic.  Problem with the V730 is loss of mpg to the tune of 1-2 miles per gallon.  Finally decided on the VS-6 (not Cool as the overdrive is .8:1 or gives slightly lower rpms at a given speed.  The .72 is usable but will down shift to often.  The .6 is really only good for down hill driving.

The VS-6 will handle either the 8V71 or V92 with no problems.

BTW I never did anything.  Sold the bus.
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