Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
July 23, 2014, 10:13:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you had an E-Mag Subscription: It can be read on any computer, iPad, smart phone, or compatible device.
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Cheap Telma retarders... if you have a bus with a long driveline...  (Read 8316 times)
boogiethecat
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 633



WWW

Ignore
« on: November 30, 2008, 08:52:02 PM »

   Ebay  Item number: 160301392117   
The guy has 5, and the price can't be beat....
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 08:19:31 AM by boogiethecat » Logged

1962 Crown
San Diego, Ca
Lin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4525

1965 MC-5a




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2008, 09:40:21 PM »

I assume that it would be too big for a MC5a.
Logged

You don't have to believe everything you think.
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6667





Ignore
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 10:35:45 PM »

If you have a V drive, or a tight and short driveline like the MC5, there just plainly isn't enough room for the Telma retarder.  Buses like the GMC PD4501, Prevost with Series 60, VanHool, newer MCI's have longer drivelines that will facilitate the Telma.  Otherwise, you'll have to stay with the tried and true Jake Brake.  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Sojourner
Jesus Love You!
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 894


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 12:08:58 AM »

The e-b a y # 160301392117 is a "drive-line" (double drive shafts) version of Telma retarder will only work in front and mid engine school bus or truck. You need at least 48 inch between transmission and pinion flange.

The only one work on MCI 6-7-8-9-12 and later model....are the "focal-mount" version of Telma retarder. These are mounting directly to the rear axle to eliminate one drive shaft.

Focal-Mount Retarder Click “Specification Sheets”, “Focal (FN series)”, “OC442046a FN 50-85 (F5750)” and stroll down to page 5.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Logged

http://dalesdesigns.net/names.htm
Ps 28 Blessed be the LORD, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him
JohnEd
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4571




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 01:05:59 AM »

Gerald,

You always come thru with really neat references and sites......this no exception.

The thing that always stuck in the back of my mind(not that far and clearly visable from the front) was that the loss of a U-Joint eliminated the Jake, Trans Retard, Exhaust stuff.  The u-joint became the "single point of failure" and I don't like that.  The Focul Mount Telma really clicked with me because you had to lose an axel to defeat its braking effect.  That and no maint, no heat load, no noise and No Bull.  Thanks for sharing that site.

John
Logged

"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
Sojourner
Jesus Love You!
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 894


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 05:38:22 AM »

About Telma system...at GM Tech Center, we use them of the Telma in-line version equips trailer to drag prototype vehicles for performace testing. IT WORKS! Unlimited braking also!

Thank you for the nice comment!

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Logged

http://dalesdesigns.net/names.htm
Ps 28 Blessed be the LORD, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him
Kenny
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 222





Ignore
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 07:11:00 AM »

Interesting a driveshaft mounted retarder. Anyone use one of these on an MC9? Advantages/disadvantages over a jake brake? Cost/complexity over jake brake?

Kenny
Logged

1941 and 1945 Flxible - South Lyon, Michigan
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 07:24:40 AM »

No free lunch, the Telma uses lots of electric power, and makes all the same heat as anything else, only does it down against the differential, buried in the drive axle cavity, in the case of our T drive buses.

You can break many laws, but not physics.

Stopping or slowing always converts the energy of motion into heat, and the activating mechanisms require energy of some kind to operate.

Where you choose to deposit that heat is the choice a busnut has, not that one way makes less than the other.

Just clarifying for those less familiar and who may read the wrong thing into the thread.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
boogiethecat
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 633



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 08:07:35 AM »

Ah Buswarrior.  I choose to disagree, far, far from "no free lunch", having installed two Telma driveline units myself, one driveshaft style and one focal, on my two busses.  Definitely the BEST insurance money I've EVER spent.  And MUCH better performance and safety than any other retarder system.

Perhaps in your T drive busses the energy that the Telma converts may end up in a bad place, that I don't know.  But converting your downhill energy to hot air in a front or mid-engine bus like mine  instead of relying on Jakes or plain brakes is one of the best if not THE best idea anyone's come up with in years.  I have had on my bus: no aux. brakes; then an exhaust brake; then Jakes; and now the Telma and without ANY hesitation I would recommend a Telma to anyone who has a bus that one could be installed on, period.

They are quiet
They are super safe
Yes they draw upwards of 140 amps when running, but that's why you install a bigger alternator if you have to (I didn't and have had absolutely no problems)
Yes they make a lot of hot air, but for at least a few more years there's a lot of free cold air available to heat up. The difference is that they DO make your downhill energy into hot air, instead of toasting your brakes, overheating your transmission in the case of a tranny retarder, or making your engine work as a noisy compressor (poorly by comparison I might add).

An interesting aside from the downhill stuff, if wired into your brake pedal as can be done, the Telma also takes on 80% of your normal braking function as well, meaning double safety and very little brake wear.  I would actually be comfortable driving home with only the Telma should my brakes fail, as I've tried using the Telma manually in this mode to see what would happen (ie actuating it by hand instead of using the brake pedal as an experiment to see if I could safely drive with it alone if it ever became necessary). it works!

Anyway the point of my original post was not to argue the fine points of Telmas.. but instead to point out that for anyone with a driveline long enough, here's a Telma for you at a stupidly low price.  It's a big one, but there is really no "too big" with a Telma... if it slows you down too much you just don't turn on all 4 of it's windings all at once...

It's available, it's inexpensive, and if I had another few busses that'd take them i'd have never shared this ad !!!!!

Cheers
Boogie
Logged

1962 Crown
San Diego, Ca
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 08:15:23 AM »

Buswarrior, slight correction to your great post. 

Jake brakes do generate some heat, but it all goes into the same heat rejection system that the engine does (radiator and exhaust system) and it does so at a time when the engine is not putting out heat from generating HP.  Thus is it not any problem to get rid of the heat.

The two worst heat generators are the Thelma and a transmission retarder.  The Thelma rejects heat without affecting the other heat rejection systems, but can put a lot of heat into a localized area (like the rear end area). 

A retarder in my opinion is a very scary option.  It rejects it's energy into the transmission cooling system.  Used heavily, it will quickly overcome the capacity of the system and can create all sort of problems.  If you have a retarder, use it wisely and keep a VERY close eye on the transmission temperature gauge (you MUST have one if you use a retarder).

Jim
Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6667





Ignore
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 12:41:07 PM »

A comment on Telma retarders mounted directly to the rear differential.  Personally, I don't like it since it adds all the weight of the Telma to the rear axle possibly making the ride worse.  While Boogiethecat gets away with his mounted on the axle, he also has leaf spring suspension.  I know Telma will not mount the retarder on the rear axle with air suspension because of the heat issues (can cause air bag failure with the heat buildup).  The only other places to mount the Telma is directly to the transmission (can be an engineering nightmare) or to the carrier bearing-of which most buses driveline is too short to install one.
I agree with Gary that a Telma is the most powerful and quiet retarder available.  But most of us will not have the room for one.  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
JohnEd
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4571




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 01:04:48 PM »

I gather that the Telma will not work on an MCI as the driveshaft is too short....right?  Will it work on a Pre?  Don't ask why I want that info.


"and if I had another few busses that'd take them i'd have never shared this ad !!!!!"  There ya go agin Boogie, always think'n bout yourownself. Roll Eyes Grin Grin


Thanks,

John
Logged

"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
HB of CJ
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1230




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 01:39:00 PM »

Shame on you boogiethecat.  He he he.  Wish I still had my 10-wheeler Crown as the discovered, then shared E-bay retarders would be perfect for my application.  Jakes...30% to air, 70% to radiator heat rejection. Automatic tranny retarders...100% heat rejection into a marginal tranny cooling system....equals $disaster$ on long grades. $$$AUGH$$$.

Jakes are very cool and I love the sound, but for a Horizional Big Cam Cummins, they are becoming rather expensive to find and install.  Special oiling concerns.  Years ago we had a 48,000 lbs Fire Engine ladder truck that had the driveline retarder,  Had too.  Way overweight.  The retarder was like magic.  The service brakes never got hot. HB of CJ Smiley Smiley Smiley
Logged
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2008, 02:01:35 PM »

Oh well...

What I meant to write... no matter which method you want to use, they all make heat, in relation to the "braking" they do, and that heat has to be considered, and managed, or not, depending on which you choose.

I was concerned that the earlier threads could lead a novice astray thinking the Telma does not have its own set of compromises, as does every choice for slowing down.

I'll throw a defence to the Allison trannies: A tranny that comes equipped with a retarder has a cooling system to deal with the heat. Whether the coach manufacturer/aftermarket hot rodder then puts in a sufficiently robust radiator, or the owner properly maintains the radiator/cooling system, or someone monkeys with the computer downshift settings, or the driver overheats it by letting it idle in a high gear while retarding on the long downhills, are separate issues.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
HB of CJ
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1230




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2008, 03:49:59 PM »

Well said buswarrior.  Also ANY adequate cooling system can be overwhelmed by stupidity.  How about a 38000 lbs Type 1 Fire Engine coming down the Grapevine North bound at 75 mph in 6th gear with the Allision tranny retarder in the top setting (5 or 6?)....

...and the Firefighter never touching the service brakes and having that brand new $400,000 buck plus apparatus practically bursting into flames at the bottom of the Ridge route?  The reason he gave at the his "hearing" was "that was how he drove his car and he....

...didn't think the fire engine was any different".  Duh.  Anyway, about $25K to replace the Allision and related pieces.  Total toast.  If that engine had had a Telma type retarder, the firefighter still would have been stupid, but at least it would not have totaled the tranny and almost the fire engine.

Good engineering and common sence would suggest that if one plans on running his 38000 lbs Crown Super Coach 10-wheeler ultimate Bus Conversion down the Ridge Route at 80 mph because he can and he wants too, then one should consider where all that local heat is going to go.

Jakes are cool, but they are noisy, plus the little fact everything in the drivetrain is subjected to massive reverse torque loading.  Like already mentioned, what if something breaks?  AUUUGHHHHH!  Crowns have huge 16 x 12 brakes, but they aren't THAT GOOD!  Yikes!

But, where would all that massive heat go if one had the mother of all Telma type retarders?  I mean something would have to be glowing red.  Heat shielding to protect the brakes, hoses, lines, floor, tires, etc. comes to mind.  Yep, no free lunch.  Heat is heat.  Thanks.  HB of CJ Smiley Smiley Smiley
Logged
boogiethecat
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 633



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 05:04:15 PM »

But that's what's so c@@l about the telma. The hot rotors have gigantic fans cast into them and they simply make a whole lot of hot air (same stuff as I'm usually full of), and it just blows away under the coach. No red hot monsters, even going down that grade with the Telma fully on at 75mph!
Logged

1962 Crown
San Diego, Ca
HB of CJ
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1230




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 05:54:52 PM »

Gary..now I REALLY regret selling my Crown 10 wheeler.  AUGHH!  Oh well.  Did you mount your Telma right up next to the differencial housing or right behind your tranny?  You posted it once, but I have forgotten. Curious because Crowns have kinda short driveshafts.  How close did all the fires get? (again)  Crowns forever.  HB of CJ Smiley Smiley Smiley
Logged
Jriddle
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 650





Ignore
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 06:15:33 PM »

I for one would not put a retarder on my bus. It looks like a lot of trouble and is extra weight that will need repaired someday. If I was using my bus to make a living and needed to go down hills like a rocket, because time is money I might consider installing one. I was taught by very safe truck driver to go down hills in a lower gear than it took to get up it. Most people who use there bus for traveling probably are not in that big of a hurry anyway. This is just my opinion but take your time and you may not need to have all the extras that will need repired someday. I travel over one large mountain pass and two smaller ones to go to work. I can't tell you how many brake fires I have seen and daily smell hot brakes on trucks. This can be avoided by slowing down and taking your time.

Just my view.
John
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 08:26:30 PM by Jriddle » Logged

If It Can't Be Grown Then It Has To Be Mined
John Riddle
Wells NV
1984 MC9
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6667





Ignore
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2008, 08:03:13 AM »

Personally from experience both driving a truck 1.3 million miles, and driving my Jake brake equipped bus.  Jakes work and they work well.  I had Don Fairchild adjust my jakes, and holy cow, what a difference.  Coming down the north bound I-5 grapevine (5 miles of 6%) I used to have to touch the brakes 4 or 5 times, now I have to switch it between 2 heads and 1 head to keep from slowing down to much-and this is with my car in tow weighing close to 35,000 pounds.  If you come west of I-25 into the western states, you should have a Jake brake to avoid possible disaster and to keep from holding up traffic from going down hills at 25mph without the Jake brake.  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Kenny
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 222





Ignore
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2008, 09:40:13 AM »

Has anyone used the Telma focal retarder on an MCI9 or other MCI bus? What is the approx. cost to buy the unit?

Kenny
Logged

1941 and 1945 Flxible - South Lyon, Michigan
belfert
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5391




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2008, 10:48:24 AM »

A good reason to have a Telma instead of a Jake is certain grades like I80 westbound into Salt Lake City that prohibit engine braking.  The two times I've been through there we just ran the Jakes anyhow.  I didn't want to end up like some of the big trucks where they were burning up their brakes.  There is some debate on whether use of safety devices such as engine brakes can legally be prohibited.

A Telma is way down on my list of things to add if I ever get through the rest of my list.  Dina offered the Telma as a factory option so it must fit somehow.
Logged

Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2008, 01:44:49 PM »

Brian, there have been several huge discussions, on this board and the other board, on ordnances that prohibit the use of Jakes in areas where they are needed.  The overwhelming consensus is that a judge would have a pretty hard time convicting you of using a safety device.  Sounds like you have the same opinion.  No matter what, if I NEED them, they go on.

The other side of the coin are ordinances that required mufflers.  I have seen a lot of those signs (don't recall total prohibition signs in recent times) and it make sense that a person could be ticketed for not having mufflers (lots of trucks don't).  I use an Aero muffler and it might as well not be there when the Jakes are on.  I try to be very careful and only use as much Jakes as absolutely necessary (2 cyl. when possible).  However, when I need them they go on.  Since I have a muffler, I am not sure what they would charge me with.

Jim 
Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
kyle4501
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3122


PD4501 South Carolina




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2008, 05:39:16 PM »

  Since I have a muffler, I am not sure what they would charge me with.

Jim 

Around here, it would be a noise violation . . . .

Same thing they use for the boom boom boobs . . .  Grin
Logged

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. (R.M. Nixon)
JohnEd
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4571




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2008, 07:05:38 PM »

Kenny,

Go to the site that "SOJOURNER" recommended.  It is superb and gives pricing data for the exact models.  I would find out what I needed and then resolve to search for a used one.  They are pretty much industructable.  There are a couple big bearings but no friction as the wheels are magnetically coupled and don't actually touch.  I think these are standard equip in Europe and they should be over here.

HTH,

John
Logged

"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
makemineatwostroke
Guest

« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2008, 07:35:54 PM »

JohnEd, little bit of info for you the Telma is popular in Europe because Jake would not sell to Europen manufactures only American engine manufactures  they were made available to M- B just last year and when Volvo bought Mack they would not furnish Volvo with the Jake so Volvo developed their own system like the Jake that works sometime.Being around the Telma for years in Venezuela on the Volvo buses and trucks I will stick with the Jakes the Telmas are not trouble free, call Houston Metro and see what they think about the Telma      have a great evening
Logged
JohnEd
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4571




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2008, 08:29:37 PM »

2stroke,

That is good info.  Not what I have been hearing, but good info.

Worked in Venezuela?  Did you pal around with Hugo?  Castro and the CEO of Russia liked him so I guess he can't be all bad....right?

John
Logged

"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
makemineatwostroke
Guest

« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2008, 08:50:21 PM »

JohnEd; I don't pal around with him, they have been a good customer of ours for years and I deal with him time to time.I go back in Jan for a few weeks and hope the wars games he is playing now will be over with. The Venezuelan people are great but him ?   
have a great evening
Logged
boogiethecat
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 633



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 07:51:50 AM »

So the big question is, after 539 views of this thread, did anyone find the Telma on ebay a great deal and buy it?
 Or did all my post do was start another argument about how wonderful, inapplicable , amazing, unreliable or worthless the things are?
Logged

1962 Crown
San Diego, Ca
Lee Bradley
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 699




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2008, 08:00:46 AM »

Thanks for the post. I did not bid, even though I will probably get a Telma, as that model requires a heavy frame to mount it. Most buses don't have the frame required for that unit. 
Logged
makemineatwostroke
Guest

« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2008, 08:18:39 AM »

Lee; if you are looking for a Telma check with Industrial Transmission in Irving Texas 1-800-999-8726  they took over the line after we dropped it and will have takeouts and used from time to time at a good buy and I will check for a number for you on the guy that scraped the Houston Metro buses that were equipped with the Telma and post it here for you guys that want one      have a great day
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 08:26:06 AM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
Sojourner
Jesus Love You!
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 894


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2008, 08:53:59 AM »


Industrial Automatic Transmission Service Inc (left click)

I will stick with the Jakes the Telmas are not trouble free, call Houston Metro and see what they think about the Telma      have a great evening


makemineatwostroke....my question is if you will, what are the field problems with the Telma outer then broken cable?

Thank you, Gerald
Logged

http://dalesdesigns.net/names.htm
Ps 28 Blessed be the LORD, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him
makemineatwostroke
Guest

« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2008, 10:01:09 AM »

Gerald; I don't like to get in very deep in a discussion when someone likes a product but I will answer your question.In Houston we get around 50 inches of rain per year with the Telma being exposed to all the elements and flooded streets the drivers would drive through these areas and like anything electronic it does not like water,they are exposed to dirt, grime and whatever is on the road ways.Houston Metro has brought these into the shop for warranty work that the maintenance people have never greased the 2 bearings causing the unit to siege.I have saw them with wire, nail and other metal products wedged in the unit.If guys like the unit and serves them well that is great the point I am making is they are not trouble free.   

have a great day
Logged
Dallas
Guest

« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2008, 10:48:30 AM »

If I had had the financial wherewithal, I would have bid on one in a mouses heartbeat.
Unfortunately, at the moment I'm at the mercy of the best half of this partnership.. and she has some other wishes for spending money. (If we had any that is).

Maybe they'll come back up again, when I can wine, dine and finagle my way into the permission to purchase.
Yeah, Right!

Dallas

So the big question is, after 539 views of this thread, did anyone find the Telma on ebay a great deal and buy it?
 Or did all my post do was start another argument about how wonderful, inapplicable , amazing, unreliable or worthless the things are?
Logged
belfert
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5391




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2008, 12:49:40 PM »

I didn't bite because I suspect it wouldn't fit my Dina plus I don't have any spare money right now.
Logged

Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!