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Author Topic: Spicer trans oil color changed to white???  (Read 2905 times)
Rick Brown
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« on: December 02, 2008, 05:05:05 PM »

Greetings:
About a week ago I drove about six hours in heavy precipitation.  When I checked the fluid level in my Spicer four speed (in a 4905) today I saw the oil color has changed to a milky white.  I drained some into a glass and see no stratification after about 8 hours.  Anybody have any idea about what may be going on?
Thanks for any input
-RickBrown in Reno, NV

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Jriddle
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 05:07:31 PM »

Sounds liked water got in there to me.

John
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John Riddle
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 05:09:15 PM »

Rick,

I would say you are getting water in your transmission.  I experienced this once when I pressure washed the engine/trans and water entered through the transmission breather cap on the top of the tranny.
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Gary D

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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 05:21:37 PM »

I would drain oil and replace with new and look for missing cap or other ways it could have got in there. Most of the time if you catch problems like these right away you will not suffer damage. Have to say it isn't as good as strait oil but should be fine.

Good luck
John
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John Riddle
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 07:00:22 PM »

Water in the oil and it stays in suspension.  Heat the oil up on the stove and it will seperate quickly.  Not to 212 now mind you....just "hot".

Change the oil and go to full synthetic.  Better protection due to it being a better lube and better MPG cause it is lighter at the same time.  Follow the rec of AMSOIL at their site.

John
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 08:00:04 PM »

Just a thought. After changing the fluid it may still appear milky with the moisture residue that undoubtedly will still remain. I would use a dino based oil and run it through some heat cycles to rid the system of as much moisture as possible before going to the higher priced synthetic. Just a thought is all. Later
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2008, 10:19:35 PM »

About the possibility of water in oil….If it has a dip-stick…hold a lighted lighter under dip stick and watch for bubbling in the oil. Or get small sample of oil on a piece of paper and ignite at the edge of paper and watch for bubbling while burning. It works every time for me. I used to be automotive diagnostician at auto clinic and repair shops.

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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2008, 01:08:29 PM »

Drain and replace with OEM gear or motor oil, run for about 5 hours, then drain and replace again with OEM.  I would stay away from the synethic (sp) stuff.  Problem is that without a gasket update, most likely the oily oil will seep or leak past your stock gaskets and seals.  Just a thought here.  HB of CJ Smiley Smiley Smiley  Also I would seek out and plug that opening.
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gumpy
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2008, 03:48:31 PM »

Water in the oil and it stays in suspension.  Heat the oil up on the stove and it will seperate quickly.  Not to 212 now mind you....just "hot".

Change the oil and go to full synthetic.  Better protection due to it being a better lube and better MPG cause it is lighter at the same time.  Follow the rec of AMSOIL at their site.

John

Why couldn't you heat it up just past 212*, and evaporate all the water out of the oil?  Seems to me the oil should be stable well past
that temp, as that's close to normal operating temps anyway.

I have some hydraulic oil in a tractor that I've been considering doing this too. It's new oil, but due to a leaky seal around the gearshift, it's been getting water in it when sitting. I've been thinking that I could just drain it, put it in my turkey cooker, and heat it up to about 220*. That should drive out the moisture, and not pose a fire hazard, but I'm unsure of the flash point of the oil. Obviously there's the risk of splashing oil on the burner, but precautions as usual.

Any thoughts. It would sure save me a bunch of money changing the oil every few months.

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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 05:54:59 PM »

About removing moisture from the contaminated oil…there are three ways to remove the moisture:
1)   Heat up oil to at least to vaporize point…using vacuum will help if it is lower than boiling temperature.
2)   Vacuum-ize moisture out via pouring contaminated oil into collapse proof container such as empty LP gas or Freon tank and an a/c vacuum pump down to 29.7 inch of mercury at 40°F oil temperature.
3)   Before refill the treated oil into the transmission, have transmission case very warmed to vacuum (shop-vac) via drain plug hole as much water condensations from the inside upper half of the transmission case.
4)   Refill with treated or new oil after the transmission is warmed to at least 40°F or higher-the-better before refill.
5)   Drive until transmission reach normal temperature.
6)   Again replace oil one more time doing same procedure as # 4 steps.
7)   Step # 6 can be skip if transmission temperature can achieves at least 212°F while driving.

I have posted the following quote from this link
A little more on moisture removal

At sea level, water begins to boil and change into a vapor state at 212 degrees Fahrenheit. If we increase the pressure we can raise the boiling point of water. An example of this would be the typical automotive cooling system which uses a 15 lb. radiator cap to maintain a design pressure. In that system, the idea is to raise the pressure and therefore raise the temperature at which the cooling liquid will boil. If we wish to lower the boiling point of liquid, we simply remove the pressure that's on top of that liquid. That's how we boil water out of an air conditioning system. We use a vacuum pump to bring the system to a level of near perfect vacuum so the water will boil off and be carried away as a vapor. It's important to note that ambient temperature has much to do with the point at which liquids will boil under vacuum. The greater the temperature, the fewer microns of vacuum will be required to start the boiling process.  If you've been keeping note, you know that non condensable (air) and moisture are two things you definitely don't want in your a/c system. 
The list below shows how temperature plays a role in the level of vacuum inch of mercury needed to boil water. 
26.45 @ 120°F
27.32 @ 110°F
27.99 ° 100°F
28.50 @ 90°F
28.89@ 80°F
29.18@ 70°F
29.40@ 60°F
29.66@ 50°F
29.71@ 40°F
29.76@ 30°F
29.82@ 20°F
29.86@ 10°F
All values are at sea level.  Subtract 1 inch for each 1000 ft. above sea level

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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Ps 28 Blessed be the LORD, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him
Rick Brown
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2008, 01:14:40 PM »

Thanks for all that.
I took a sample of the contaminated oil and heated it to a maximum of 275 deg F.  Ramped up the temperature over about 12 hours.  Bubbles formed over 200 deg and increased as temperature increased.  Oil color went from white to dirty gray.  Decided my curiosity about this subject was exhausted and to just buy new oil.
-RickBrown in Reno, NV
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 04:04:51 PM »

Thanks for all that.
I took a sample of the contaminated oil and heated it to a maximum of 275 deg F.  Ramped up the temperature over about 12 hours.  Bubbles formed over 200 deg and increased as temperature increased.  Oil color went from white to dirty gray.  Decided my curiosity about this subject was exhausted and to just buy new oil.
-RickBrown in Reno, NV


Rick...when you heat until start to bubbling....there not need to go further or hotter...the bubbling is your answer, you have moisture in oil.

Things to remember is that water boil at lower temperature than oil. Bubbling is the indications that water want burst into gas state before oil at the given temperature.

It easier to purchase new oil than using vacuum to remove the moisture.

Caution....make sure all moisture is removed as much as possible before refill with new oil.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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Ps 28 Blessed be the LORD, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2008, 08:44:26 PM »

Craig
What you want to do will work. I have seen you backhoe and understand the need to not change oil when you need it. The turkey cooker will work but will be a pain in the A#$. Get her done!

John
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2008, 03:49:59 PM »

Craig
What you want to do will work. I have seen you backhoe and understand the need to not change oil when you need it. The turkey cooker will work but will be a pain in the A#$. Get her done!

John


Turkeys may taste funny afterwords, but then again shouldn't be constipated either  Grin ! LOL!  Grin  BK  Grin
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