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Author Topic: Help needed - frozen air valve, not building pressure  (Read 4499 times)
NJT 5573
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2008, 12:25:25 PM »

Put the air brake alcohol in after the air dryer, (line out) or pour it directly into the wet tank. The wet tank is the tank that air goes to after the dryer. Pour in about a pint and leave it. Buy or rent a space heater and get it blowing under your coach. Use cardboard or whatever you have to contain the heat under the coach. You should be rolling in less than an hour even without alcohol, but it may refreeze without the alcohol.
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2008, 03:59:02 PM »

Thank for the photo. Being in engine compartment is good to get warm up...MCI 8 & 9 are in front of first bay's behind the front axle.
I blow up the photo and see a alcohol container next to ping tank. If it a dryer, it should have removeable end housing to replace the desiccant and governor line to cycle purging valve.
Correct me if I am wrong, the side air line is from compressor and top is the outlet to dryer then to wet tank. If it has a 24v connection at the bottom of ping tank, then it a electric remote purger or heater.

Question...did you ever hear air purging after compressor's governor cutoff? If you do, you have a airdryer with automatic purger. Perhaps it locate up front like MCI 8 & 9.
If you do not have a warm-up place, then next alternative is use port-a-heater and aim in area wherever you think is iced in the system.

However, a warm shop will be the easiest and quickest way to correct the water draining problem and be back on the road.

You mention the shop air compressor may pump in moisture in bus which is something you don't want to do again the next time.

Never take for grand it that just pumping in any air is OK during the freezing climate. Always make sure it dry air.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2008, 07:39:31 PM »

Thanks guys!  Last night I was putting in the booze after the dryer, firing up the engine and letting it run until the wet tank safety valve would release and then I would repeat the steps. 

Gerald, yes you are right about the air lines.  The side is the input, the top is the output and I have never heard it work.  I must add that I do not know if it is receiving power, I just know that it is wired. 

I'll definitely never use the shop air in the winter again!  I did get the booze dispenser assembled (I had some parts that were on the bus, and some from another bus) and I hope it works. 

With the info I have posted, can anyone help me with where I should expect the blockage to be?  To refresh memories, I am getting air to the service brakes but not to parking brakes, airbags, engine air controls or wipers, door cylinder or air gauge.

Also, can anyone identify the air dryer I have?  It is not in my manual or parts manual.

Glenn
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Glenn Williams
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2008, 07:43:55 PM »

Tenor,; your photo is not of a dryer that is a ping tank with a sensor of some type the ones I saw are for water or it could be a electric drain valve   have a great day
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 05:27:22 AM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2008, 08:37:00 PM »

Tenor,

It's hard to say where the frozen water is in your system. It could be you have a dip in the line somewhere, that's where water will accumulate. It could be you have a frozen valve somewhere. The best thing to do is use a portable heater and try and warm things up to get the lines unfrozen. Water in your air system is your worst enemy, warm or cold, doesn't matter. Follow all instructions from previous posts and get that bus warmed up.

HTH,

Paul
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2008, 06:03:31 AM »


Tenor, Tenor, Tenor, Tenor, Tenor you have a chance to drain the frozen moisture out today, because my weather report from www.wunderground.com said that is 35+°F NOW as of 8:45 am.
Quote “Today
Rain...then rain and snow late in the day. Areas of fog through the day. Snow accumulation an inch or less. Highs in the upper 30s. Southwest winds 5 to 15 mph. Chance of precipitation near 100 percent.” Unquote.
So if your bus is not in the facing the headwind of 5 to 15 mph to achieved the warm air into front end with spare tire lid open up and all along the length of the bus. I would suggest using gas (LP) port-a-heater or equivalent with it being position any where that the wind is blowing at to allow extra warmed air to flow under or whatever. Big plus to accelerate warming process is having all baggage doors open to allow center tunnel warmed.

If you or any know Tenor phone number so I can talk to help?

Hopeful is back to normal before day over to be ready tomorrow.

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2008, 06:46:52 AM »

Good news!  It got to 36 degrees this morning and it aired right up!  Thanks guys!

Glenn
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Glenn Williams
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2008, 08:58:10 AM »

That is Great News! Praise the Lord!
Thank you for sharing the good news.

So now you can make sure all of your air 4 tanks plus ping is drain well by opening drain valves before it freeze again. Do the ping first, then the dryer if it equips, wet tank and last 2 tanks...park and brake tanks.

That 36°F outside is like having bus in warmed shop to thaw.

So your goal and to any bus nuts having buses in freezing climate is make sure you drain your tanks while it still thawed before shut down for parking and storage.

Tenor...if you will and whenever you can to take a picture of the tanks behind the front axle and one ahead of rear axle to determine what maybe different then MCI-8-9. It should have a automatic purging dryer equips in your bus.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

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Ps 28 Blessed be the LORD, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him
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« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2008, 12:06:02 PM »

Yup, hooray....

But you'll be freezing it right back up again.

If you are having this kind of trouble so close to the freezing point, you have problems that will come back.

Never mind the popular misconceptions, Alcohol is only a miracle liquid when you drink it...and only for a short while.

Brake Alcohol is an anti-freeze, not a thawing agent, and you have to get it all the way through the lines as a vapour, when the moisture is thawed, and hope that the moisture picks up enough anti-freeze to stay wet when it gets cold again. Cold alcohol will not thaw cold ice. And the parts it has touched have already sucked any heat out of it from being inside or wherever it was stored.

And the "no free lunch compromise", brake alcohol has a bad habit of weakening the lubricant in the valves, so you get them to stick later in the warm weather...

Oh dear.

If the valving is frozen shut by a lick of moisture on the seat, holding the rubber bits tight, you'll get no air through and of course, no alcohol through. Every check valve, every filter, every relay valve, every component that has a seat and a rubber seal, every droop in the hoses or piping... all potential sources of grief.

The time for keeping an air system dry, is ALL THE TIME, 365 DAYS A YEAR, not just as the cold approaches, as you have discovered.

Check the mileage of hoses and pipes in the bus, they've all got damp, wet moisture and slop in them now.

How is that going to magically evaporate and become dry? This is no different than trying to dry your hands with a washroom blower that the heating element has failed...you'll be blowing a long time to get 'em dry...

So it'll take a lot of running with a supply of dry air, which will require air drier maintenance and or install...

Ok, scolding is over, for the moment....

The solution from the frozen north, where freezing up can cost you your life, or at least a few toes:

Your goal is to keep the system dry, no alcohol needed, no valve lubrication issues, no frustrating loss of functionality in the cold weather.

How to get there from here:

Never mind the alcohol evaporator for now, it isn't enough to aggressively solve this problem, you need a healthy puddle of alcohol in the bottom of every tank so that the vapour may spread strongly to all components that may be affected by the moisture and be freeze prone.

An outboard motor fuel line with the primer bulb, a female airline connector substituted in the outlet end, open pipe on the inlet end goes into the gallon of brake alcohol. Hold on to the fittings you cut off, someone will want them for the boat. And a couple gallons of brake alcohol.

The drains on every tank get replaced with a male airline fitting and a quarter turn valve. (This also makes taking pressure readings with a tire gauge and filling with the shop air an easy routine.)

Drain the tanks of air and whatever else will come out, and then pump a quarter to a half gallon of brake alcohol into each of the air tanks. You have 4 stock, one ahead of the rear axle, two behind the front axle and one up under the driver. If you find other places to store air.... well, I wouldn't be surprised, someone has been playing with it already.

Start bus, go for a drive, operate all air system components repeatedly, seats fill and empty, wipers, washer, brakes, service and parking on and off a dozen times or better, front door air lock. still have the radiator shutters? Go and use the bypass valves to run the air through and through out the system. Air horn?  The air suspension is the devil, hard to get flow though that without having access to the height valving. Hope for the best on this one.

Leave the alcohol in the other tanks until spring, now, drain the wet tank, if you don't like the colour of what comes out, get your trusty primer bulb rig and pump in some more alcohol to help rinse it out some more.

Now, drain the wet tank every time you use the bus.

I will expect that your bus has no air drier or it is now useless.

If you are going to use any heat, I'd contain the heat around the wet tank, transferring the warmth to the air contained there-in, and let it travel to the other places. Applying heat directly to valves with a torch is another catch 22 -  that valve may have frozen seals, but the seals are made of...rubber and plastic materials...which melt or otherwise change shape if heated too much..rendering the valve inoperable or making it a leaker. You MUST be careful applying heat to valves that belong to you.

That "thing" in the picture is unknown to us, and is someone's attempt to capture moisture for reasons best left unsaid to maintain whatever slim chance I still have of being heaven bound. 

If you have an air drier, it is in the least NFG, in that the alcohol has already been fed into it via that rig in the engine room and rendered the drying desiccant less than effective. Best not to worry about that for now, but do check to see what might be hanging up across from the two air tanks between the front wheels, on the opposite bulkhead. The air drier, if you have it, is both repairable, and replaceable.

In the spring, open all drains and leave them open overnight, see what drips out. Service your air drier, rebuild all parts, including the heater element, confirm a good power source. If no drier, install one.

Strong consideration to a squirt of your favorite spray lube, one that is not solvent laced into the intake end of the air valves you can get your hands on. Consider replacing the valves you do not know the age of, and then that gets accomplished at the same time.

And, go and buy an air drier/water separator for your shop air, and drain that tank regularly too....

any questions?

happy coaching!
buswarrior


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« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2008, 07:27:28 PM »

Thanks for ALL of the advice !  I opted not to take the bus for this run, since I was concerned that it would ice up again.  As far as i know, the air system could be untouched original.  It was in service until about a decade ago, and it has sat for most of that time.  I need to install a quick release valve for the wet tank to drain it easily without getting under the bus.  The dry tank has a release valve with a pull cord, but the parking tank does not have a drain.  I suspect that the accessory tank under the driver is bypassed.  It has an air fitting (wide open) in the center of the bottom.  I  wish I had a clue as to where the blockage was.  I am hoping that we get some warmth soon since we have been about 15 degrees below normal since mid Nov.  If that happens, Buswarrior, I'll be following your tips to the letter!  I'm not going to put any heat directly to any valves, since I know that they function fine in warmer temps.  That is the best step by step for that problem on the board! 

If anyone does recognize the "thing" attached to my air line, let me know, since I have a ping tank after the "thing", I'm pretty sure it's some brand of air dryer.

Thanks again!
Glenn
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Glenn Williams
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1968 MCI 7 Ser. No. 7476 Unit No. 10056
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2008, 01:13:12 PM »

That "thing" is some bastardized attempt to collect water.

Get the system up to snuff, and that may be used or discarded as you please.

All it is doing is giving a larger space to collect water, than the stock "discharge muffler", which no doubt in the eyes of the inventor, meant less need to drain it.

If there is a pool of water inside the air system, what would the humidity of the air passing by be?

Humidity is your real enemy, the water is just evidence that it is present. Your valves usually get stuck with just the thinnest layer of frosted humidity sealing the bits together, not by great clods of frozen water.

Water must be banished, not stored in larger containers.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2008, 06:48:14 PM »

If anyone does recognize the "thing" attached to my air line, let me know, since I have a ping tank after the "thing", I'm pretty sure it's some brand of air dryer.

Thanks again!
Glenn

Tenor...a photo view of the that so call dryer's bottom half would be a bigger help to determine what it is.

BTW...all wet tank have drain valve or else it been removed & pluged.

Be interest to see the photo if you will. Thank you.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2008, 11:59:54 AM »

(Notice, no one from the South had anything to say in this post)   Grin


Bill
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« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2008, 02:51:58 PM »

(Notice, no one from the South had anything to say in this post)   Grin


Bill

The are lilkly worried about us up north using "good Alcohol " to dry out. Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2008, 02:58:32 PM »

Paso,

   And what they don't realize is that in the winter we don't need a creek
 for the condensation tubes. Fire box in the house for the mash and warmth, condensing tube
 out in the snow.........now that's "good juice" :O

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