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Author Topic: California Emissions and 6v92/8v92 PM retrofit???  (Read 4493 times)
CaliXbus
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« on: December 12, 2008, 01:13:42 AM »

As many of your probably already know, the california air resource board made its final ruling and set forth the timeline for retrofiting all heavy duty on road trucks and buses today. See article and info here..http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/documents.htm

My question is: what are the options for bringing my 6v92's (4) and 8v92's (2) up to speed by 2011 without breaking the bank?
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grantgoold
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 07:32:15 AM »

I looked to see if there were exemptions for private RV buses and couldn't find any mention. Sounds like I should apply for a Grant and get it paid for Grin

If someone comes upon the exemptions for private buses please post for the rest of us folks that live in Cali. With the current projected budget deficit of $40 billion how do they plan on enforcing these regs on the those of us who do not pull into weigh stations.....

If I get my Grant, what retrofit would be the best bang for the buck?  Play along please!


Thanks

Grant
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Grant Goold
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 07:42:59 AM »

Grant, because I asssume that the cool aid seems to find a way to get out of CA I had a look at the requirements.  I couldn't decide whether to read in english, spanish, or punjabi!  Can I assume someone is joking.  What is in the water out there.  Build a aux fuel tank and run on pure corn oil when going for a emmision test.  John
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Songman
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 07:43:27 AM »

What vehicles would be subject to this regulation?
The proposed regulation would apply to diesel-fueled vehicles with a manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating greater than 14,000 pounds and to diesel shuttle buses of any weight class that operate in California. This regulation would apply regardless of where the vehicle is registered. Federally owned fleets and privately and publicly owned school buses would also be subject to the regulation. On the other hand, the following diesel vehicles would not be subject to the regulation: motor homes for non-commercial private use, military tactical vehicles, and emergency vehicles.

Don and I deal with this everyday. We have a system to bring 71 and 92s into Tier 2 compliance for off-road, portable, marine, and stationary equipment. We didn't worry about on-road because there are just not enough of them in fleet on-road operation anymore. And the requirements do not apply to private buses so it is not a big deal. But if any of you have equipment that you need to get in compliance, give us a call. We can definitely help you. And all of the CA grants like Carl Moyer are available for our system as well.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 07:46:05 AM by Songman » Logged
TomC
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 08:13:02 AM »

Currently, Calif does not test motorhome registered vehicles for emissions.  My bus conversion is still registered as a bus and has never been required to have an emission test.  CARB is very understaffed with personal to enforce the laws. I spoke to the head of enforcement in Sacramento and they don't even know what a particulate trap looks like!  With those with bus conversions in California, I wouldn't get to excited about emission problems in the near future.  The biggest thing to keep your bus from doing is belching out black smoke that draws attention to you (and that is completely in your control with your foot on the gas pedal.  I know if I see any black smoke, just pull up about an inch on the gas pedal and it usually goes away). 
From what I've read, motorhomes won't be enforced till way out around 2020.  Small fleets of commercial buses can get extensions year after year.
If you have commercial buses running, once again (and I can't emphasize this enough) make sure your engines are in tune and don't produce black smoke!  CARB has phone numbers for public watch dogs to complain about smoke producing vehicles.  I know-I've had a couple of letters myself with my Mercedes-Benz 300D turbodiesel-since it is turned up a bit without the throttle delay on it anymore.
On my bus, when I first had it turbocharged, it didn't have a fuel modulator, so on initial takeoff, belched out a cloud of very black smoke-which I know wouldn't work for long.  I had Don install the fuel modulator, and now only produces a small amount of black smoke on first takeoff that quickly disappears once the turbo comes up to speed.  In altitude, driving down the road or pulling a hill, I have no visible smoke coming out of my exhaust stack. 
As to your question on a particulate trap for your 6V/8V-92TA-they are available.  But, they are also quite large-don't know where you could mount it on a bus, except up high on the outside-which would look wonderful.  The cost would be in the $15-25,000 range and you'd have to empty it often.  If it comes to that, an engine replace would be a better way to go.  When it gets to that point with my truck conversion, that's what I'm going to do-probably replace the Caterpillar 3406B with a Cummins ISL 425hp.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 08:39:50 AM »

A quick phone call this morning to the ARB got me thru to a very nice and helpful lady named Jackie, who directed me to this link:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/2008/truckbus08/appa.pdf

Now, scroll to page A-1.  Note Section 2025(c) is Exemptions.  Scroll down to 2025(c)(11) - Bingo!  Motor homes are exempt.

Continue scrolling to page A-10, and Section2025(d)(45) - gives the definition, for this section, of what a motor home is.


As of today (12/12/08), ARB is voting on these regs, so the public comment period is over.  However, it looks like ARB actually used some common sense when it came to motor homes - and Miss Jackie herself said that they realized that diesel motor homes don't operate enough miles (on average) to have any significant impact on air quality.  They also recognized historic vehicles, too, for that matter.

She told me what this is really aimed at is commercial operations that are using diesel equipment on a daily basis, both on- and off-road.

So don't panic! 

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
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Songman
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 09:56:50 AM »

Particulate traps are killing engines all over the country. They are approved by the gov't because they don't care about the effects on the engine or the user's pocketbook. That is why CCTS is finally getting some attention. It is all an internal rebuild and doesn't require any of that expensive after-treatment stuff.
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 10:44:00 AM »

Are these engines that are being killed by particulate traps 2007 engines or retrofits?  I would think I would have heard at least something about 2007 enignes being killed by particulate traps.  The biggest complaints I have seen are low MPG from some of the redesigned 2007 engines.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Songman
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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 11:20:01 AM »

Retrofits. But you won't hear about it through official channels. That would be like trying to get the truth out of politicians. The biggest example that we know of is from the railroad here in CA. They tried traps before they came to us and only got a few weeks into their use before they started killing the engines. That is when they came to us.

I don't know anything about new engines.
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 04:33:08 PM »

Quote
School buses manufactured prior to April 1, 1977, will be required to be removed from service by January 1, 2012.

Sounds like the remaining fleet of Crowns still being used by California schools will finally get retired.
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HB of CJ
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 05:34:59 PM »

Which, like Nusa just alluded to...now may be the time for me to start shopping for that mid-80's Crown Super Coach soon-to-be-ex-schoolie school bus and maybe soon to be that Ultimate Drivers Motorhome Bus Conversion.  He he he.  HB of CJ Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 06:28:28 PM »

How many 1977 school buses are still hauling kids in California?  30 years seems like a long time for a school bus, but California doesn't have the bus killing salt we have.

I am seeing lots of new school buses locally.  I doubt they last more 10 years or so.  In some states the law is that buses cannot be over 10 years old.  I have read that some school districts with the 10 year rule are going with gas engines as they don't believe they need the longevity of a diesel when the bus only has a 10 year life.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Songman
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 06:34:28 PM »

This is not an uncommon site around Southern California.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 06:36:16 PM by Songman » Logged
quantum500
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2008, 08:28:32 PM »

Particulate traps are killing engines all over the country. They are approved by the gov't because they don't care about the effects on the engine or the user's pocketbook. That is why CCTS is finally getting some attention. It is all an internal rebuild and doesn't require any of that expensive after-treatment stuff.

What are the technical aspects of the rebuild.  I've read up on a shop in New Orleans that rebuilds boat motors into complete monsters with a great warranty.  1000hp 8v92 or a 2500hp 16v92 with a unlimited year warranty and they pass emissions. 
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Songman
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2008, 08:19:29 AM »

The CCTS kits are completely independent of HP. The kit consists of special cams, pistons, and liners. You can have as much or as little HP as you want... and as you can keep cool! Boats have it easy with that unlimited source of cool sea water!

For the actual tech stuff of how the kit works go to http://www.cctskit.com/tech.html. Feel free to call anytime if you have more questions.

I would be interested in hearing more about this place in New Orleans if you have the info. They must be doing some sort of after-treatment to make it pass emissions. CCTS is the only technology available that can do it in the actual engine and they have been patented since the mid-90s. We were just down at the International Workboat show in New Orleans and people were going nuts for the kit!
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quantum500
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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2008, 07:24:08 PM »

I was wrong on the location.  Baton Rouge would be correct and its diesel specialists.  There was a thread that was on the detroit diesel yahoo group a while back.  I can't find the page on their web site but it was similar to the ccts kit.  Jack Bivens has done some similar stuff also with performance in mind instead of emissions.  He has a 1700+hp 8v92 in stock for only $75k.  How much are the ccts kits running?  What if any fuel consumption differences are there?  Seems they want you to call to find anything out.  I'm going to guess efficiencies should be raised if cylinder pressures are higher.
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« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2008, 07:34:59 PM »

Maybe the answer is, "Move from California." Grin Grin Grin I couldn't live there since it is such a dangerous place. There are a lot of products that are, "Known to the state of California to cause cancer, etc." Grin Grin Grin Just kidding. No really, I like California. There are a lot of beautiful places. It just has a problem with politicians. But then again, doesn't our whole country have that problem?

Enough of my rambling.

God bless,

John
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quantum500
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2008, 07:39:21 PM »

California is chasing agriculture out faster than it can change to new laws and now they have to have special trucks even if it is not registered there.  I think they could have some severe shortages of things that people really need if they are not careful.  The next couple of years will be particularly interesting for California.
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Songman
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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2008, 06:34:58 AM »

Diesel Specialists was, for a time, a dealer for CCTS parts. But not any longer. So that is probably what he was talking about on the list.

There is a small fuel advantage to the CCTS kit. Not enough to do it just for fuel savings, but it is there. The CCTS kit is custom cam(s), pistons, and liners. All specially designed after years of research and a ton of money! Any Detroit 71 or 92 series engine can take the CCTS parts. If the engine is naturally aspirated, then it has to have a turbo added. Other than that, it is all internal.

I'm just learning about all this stuff. Don hired me to do some graphic design and marketing for him about a year ago after I bought the Eagle from him. He's the one that can really tell you all the science of how it works. I know they create an EGR of sorts inside each cylinder with the new design of the parts. That gives you a cleaner and more efficient burn on each stroke.

I don't have a price list sitting here in front of me but just as an example, the cost for a 6-71 kit is $4165. That includes the cam, pistons, rings, pins, and liners. Yeah, it is a little more expensive that stock Detroit parts but if you have to pass emissions, it is a lot less expensive than a repower. Also, the CCTS parts are hardened so will outlast Detroit parts. There are CCTS engines out there running full time on generators and stuff that have over 30,000 hours without a rebuild. CCTS cams are built by Crane, and the cylinder kits were built by IPD. They will also get all the gaskets and bearings and stuff for you if you want them too, but figure you could get that stuff locally easier and cheaper.

If you call the phone number you will either get me or Don. I'm not there all the time but I do spend a fair amount of time there. I have mentioned on the board before that I will be using CCTS parts in the 8V71T that will go in my Eagle when I pull the 6V92 next year. The Eagle I bought from Don originally had this same setup and some bus nuts here can tell you that when Don stepped on the throttle, he could throw you down with it. He built it specifically to show what could be done with a 2-stroke. Mine won't be that aggressive, but I want it to be able to get out of it's own way if needs be.

And you other guys are right. It almost seems that California is trying to kill itself. The ridiculous laws they are passing are doing nothing more than make businesses look elsewhere. Any of you that have ever talked to me know how much I am looking forward to moving back to GA one of these days!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 06:38:16 AM by Songman » Logged
quantum500
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2008, 09:16:58 AM »

Good info Songman.  Do you know if Don or anyone else has looked into water or water/methanol injection to further reduce emissions and improve fuel economy?  I know it does just that in 4-strokes but I'm unaware of anybody trying it with a 2-stroke. 
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Songman
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« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2008, 09:33:43 AM »

We were approached at the Pacific Marine Expo in Seattle a month ago about doing some sort of misting of a product to further reduce emissions. I don't know if they have done any research about water injection. CCTS parts are very close to Tier 2 now without any additional technology. Actually, they were Tier 3 until CA changed the numbers after the fact. And all these numbers are from tests using the old high sulfur fuels. The engineers at Southwest Research predict another 30% decrease in emissions beyond what the numbers show just because of the new low sulfur fuel.
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2008, 09:42:01 AM »

For those impressed with high output 8V-92TA's (like putting out 800hp), just remember two things.  One, marine engines have unlimited cooling using the entire ocean for their cooling needs (actually, marine engines are the only really and truly water cooled engines-all others are air cooled through a radiator)[you would need a radiator the size of the bus to cool one of those engines].  And engine life is measured according to the amount of fuel flowed through it.  The higher the horsepower used, the shorter the life.  That's why most 8V-71N's in buses have 60 injectors, transits had 55 injectors, when a turbo 8V-71 can easily survive in trucks at 90 injectors putting out 435hp and 1350lb/ft of torque.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2008, 10:14:00 AM »

Dale, at least CA is moving towards exempting motorhomes from the emission requirements.

CO has copied CA in emission program, from my understanding.  This even includes the same vendors.  Colorado uses Enviortest.  Pasted below is a bit of detail about them:

>>>>>>> info on Envirotest>>>>>>>>>>>

Envirotest Systems Corp. is the largest provider of vehicle inspection services in the country, and the only domestic company that provides vehicle inspection services outside the United States. The company operates 12 programs, tests more than 11.1 million vehicles annually and employs more than 2,500 people in its programs.

Its subsidiary, Remote Sensing Technologies Inc., operates remote sensing programs in California and Colorado and has international units in use in Sweden, Hungary, Thailand, and Korea.

>>>>>>>>>end quoted data>>>>>>>>

As you can see, they are a very large company and have tremendous lobbying power.

As a part of the "front range" (Denver and close surrounding areas) I have to have the bus emission tested each year.  This is a dyno test (very few vendors have that capability) to the tune of $125. 

However, CA has adjusted their program to reflect the fact that the program really is not as effective as it was in the past.  Cars today are much cleaner and the older ones are leaving the active base of vehicles.  Thus the program needs to be adjusted.

CO, on the other hand has made very little change in their programs to reflect the impact of better technology.  I did some looking at some legislation that is pending and it looks like they may modify the program, but nothing has been voted in yet. Envirotest has been a very active "player" in any attempt to modify our emission laws.

Yes, we have a problem in the Denver area (in a valley and high altitude), but common sense does not seem to prevail.

Please understand, that I am not an expert of emission regulations, but what reading I have done really makes my blood boil.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 10:50:01 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2008, 10:35:33 AM »

Quote from: rv_safetyman
CO has copied CA in emission program, from my understanding.  This even includes the same vendors.

As a part of the "front range" (Denver and close surrounding areas) I have to have the bus emission tested each year.  This is a dyno test (very few vendors have that capability) to the tune of $125.  

Yes, we have a problem in the Denver area (in a valley and high altitude), but common sense does not seem to prevail.

Please understand, that I am not an expert of emission regulations, but what reading I have done really makes my blood boil.

Jim just remember CA is moving to CO slowly but surely! At least that is what my sister & B-I-L told me when they moved back this side of the Mississippi for the Georgetown, Empire, Idaho Springs area! LOL!
FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2008, 10:47:49 AM »

Jack Bevins is more into his 96 series hp performance engines than the 92's and the jury is still out on his 96 series engines, but the guy worked for DD a long time and bets are on than he will get it right 
have a great day
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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2008, 11:05:00 AM »

Bk you really don't want to get me started Undecided

I did some more research about our program and it just gets me more upset.  I updated my previous post with a few more details.

Having said terrible things about our state system, two things are OK.  First of all, you can license your 25 year old car as a classic and not have to have emissions testing done AND no driving restrictions.  I have three vehicles licensed that way.  I am sure that will change, but SEMA and others have done a lot of lobbying to help with legislation in almost every state for the benefit of folks who enjoy old cars and trucks.  I am pretty sure Colorado has a classic category for large class 8 trucks, but I have not been able to find one for motorhomes or buses over 25 years old (mine is not quite there yet).

Secondly, the opacity allowance currently in place for diesels will pass a two stroke in good condition (at least the turbo versions).  The regulations permit more opacity for non-turbo engines, but I don't know if a non-turbo two stroke would pass.  The bad news is that you must spend $1500 to correct the problem before they will wave the test results.

And yes, we are not really happy with the impact that folks moving from CA have had on our real estate and land values.  I guess if you sold a house to one of them, you would be happy Grin, but raw land values have skyrocketed in the past 10 years.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 11:13:00 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
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luvrbus
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« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2008, 11:24:34 AM »

Jim, you guys don't have it bad I live in a suburb of Cal named Arizona, just got my tax bill it went from $938.00 a year to $4918.00 and I am out of here.   

good luck
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quantum500
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« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2008, 11:34:41 AM »

There is a ton of info on the net about water injection.  Its been used since WWII in aircraft, so the technology is well tested even if its not all that widely known.  Although I have not been able to find any info on 2-stroke diesels.  Thats why I was asking.  It really knocks down Nox and particulates in 4-strokes and has been touted by some as the only real technology needed to pass emissions.  Of course simple and cheap is never the solution if the epa is involved.
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2008, 07:21:11 AM »

Jim, you guys don't have it bad I live in a suburb of Cal named Arizona, just got my tax bill it went from $938.00 a year to $4918.00 and I am out of here.   

good luck

Clifford you better hang on to that property! Some day it will be ocean front! LOL!  Grin
Grin  BK  Grin
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