Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
August 29, 2014, 11:12:35 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you had an E-Mag Subscription: You will not incur forwarding fees when you are on the road.
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: California Emissions and 6v92/8v92 PM retrofit???  (Read 4557 times)
quantum500
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 146




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2008, 07:24:08 PM »

I was wrong on the location.  Baton Rouge would be correct and its diesel specialists.  There was a thread that was on the detroit diesel yahoo group a while back.  I can't find the page on their web site but it was similar to the ccts kit.  Jack Bivens has done some similar stuff also with performance in mind instead of emissions.  He has a 1700+hp 8v92 in stock for only $75k.  How much are the ccts kits running?  What if any fuel consumption differences are there?  Seems they want you to call to find anything out.  I'm going to guess efficiencies should be raised if cylinder pressures are higher.
Logged
John316
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3223

MCI 1995 DL3, DD S60, Allison B500.




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2008, 07:34:59 PM »

Maybe the answer is, "Move from California." Grin Grin Grin I couldn't live there since it is such a dangerous place. There are a lot of products that are, "Known to the state of California to cause cancer, etc." Grin Grin Grin Just kidding. No really, I like California. There are a lot of beautiful places. It just has a problem with politicians. But then again, doesn't our whole country have that problem?

Enough of my rambling.

God bless,

John
Logged

MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
quantum500
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 146




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2008, 07:39:21 PM »

California is chasing agriculture out faster than it can change to new laws and now they have to have special trucks even if it is not registered there.  I think they could have some severe shortages of things that people really need if they are not careful.  The next couple of years will be particularly interesting for California.
Logged
Songman
Guest

« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2008, 06:34:58 AM »

Diesel Specialists was, for a time, a dealer for CCTS parts. But not any longer. So that is probably what he was talking about on the list.

There is a small fuel advantage to the CCTS kit. Not enough to do it just for fuel savings, but it is there. The CCTS kit is custom cam(s), pistons, and liners. All specially designed after years of research and a ton of money! Any Detroit 71 or 92 series engine can take the CCTS parts. If the engine is naturally aspirated, then it has to have a turbo added. Other than that, it is all internal.

I'm just learning about all this stuff. Don hired me to do some graphic design and marketing for him about a year ago after I bought the Eagle from him. He's the one that can really tell you all the science of how it works. I know they create an EGR of sorts inside each cylinder with the new design of the parts. That gives you a cleaner and more efficient burn on each stroke.

I don't have a price list sitting here in front of me but just as an example, the cost for a 6-71 kit is $4165. That includes the cam, pistons, rings, pins, and liners. Yeah, it is a little more expensive that stock Detroit parts but if you have to pass emissions, it is a lot less expensive than a repower. Also, the CCTS parts are hardened so will outlast Detroit parts. There are CCTS engines out there running full time on generators and stuff that have over 30,000 hours without a rebuild. CCTS cams are built by Crane, and the cylinder kits were built by IPD. They will also get all the gaskets and bearings and stuff for you if you want them too, but figure you could get that stuff locally easier and cheaper.

If you call the phone number you will either get me or Don. I'm not there all the time but I do spend a fair amount of time there. I have mentioned on the board before that I will be using CCTS parts in the 8V71T that will go in my Eagle when I pull the 6V92 next year. The Eagle I bought from Don originally had this same setup and some bus nuts here can tell you that when Don stepped on the throttle, he could throw you down with it. He built it specifically to show what could be done with a 2-stroke. Mine won't be that aggressive, but I want it to be able to get out of it's own way if needs be.

And you other guys are right. It almost seems that California is trying to kill itself. The ridiculous laws they are passing are doing nothing more than make businesses look elsewhere. Any of you that have ever talked to me know how much I am looking forward to moving back to GA one of these days!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 06:38:16 AM by Songman » Logged
quantum500
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 146




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2008, 09:16:58 AM »

Good info Songman.  Do you know if Don or anyone else has looked into water or water/methanol injection to further reduce emissions and improve fuel economy?  I know it does just that in 4-strokes but I'm unaware of anybody trying it with a 2-stroke. 
Logged
Songman
Guest

« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2008, 09:33:43 AM »

We were approached at the Pacific Marine Expo in Seattle a month ago about doing some sort of misting of a product to further reduce emissions. I don't know if they have done any research about water injection. CCTS parts are very close to Tier 2 now without any additional technology. Actually, they were Tier 3 until CA changed the numbers after the fact. And all these numbers are from tests using the old high sulfur fuels. The engineers at Southwest Research predict another 30% decrease in emissions beyond what the numbers show just because of the new low sulfur fuel.
Logged
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6742





Ignore
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2008, 09:42:01 AM »

For those impressed with high output 8V-92TA's (like putting out 800hp), just remember two things.  One, marine engines have unlimited cooling using the entire ocean for their cooling needs (actually, marine engines are the only really and truly water cooled engines-all others are air cooled through a radiator)[you would need a radiator the size of the bus to cool one of those engines].  And engine life is measured according to the amount of fuel flowed through it.  The higher the horsepower used, the shorter the life.  That's why most 8V-71N's in buses have 60 injectors, transits had 55 injectors, when a turbo 8V-71 can easily survive in trucks at 90 injectors putting out 435hp and 1350lb/ft of torque.  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2008, 10:14:00 AM »

Dale, at least CA is moving towards exempting motorhomes from the emission requirements.

CO has copied CA in emission program, from my understanding.  This even includes the same vendors.  Colorado uses Enviortest.  Pasted below is a bit of detail about them:

>>>>>>> info on Envirotest>>>>>>>>>>>

Envirotest Systems Corp. is the largest provider of vehicle inspection services in the country, and the only domestic company that provides vehicle inspection services outside the United States. The company operates 12 programs, tests more than 11.1 million vehicles annually and employs more than 2,500 people in its programs.

Its subsidiary, Remote Sensing Technologies Inc., operates remote sensing programs in California and Colorado and has international units in use in Sweden, Hungary, Thailand, and Korea.

>>>>>>>>>end quoted data>>>>>>>>

As you can see, they are a very large company and have tremendous lobbying power.

As a part of the "front range" (Denver and close surrounding areas) I have to have the bus emission tested each year.  This is a dyno test (very few vendors have that capability) to the tune of $125. 

However, CA has adjusted their program to reflect the fact that the program really is not as effective as it was in the past.  Cars today are much cleaner and the older ones are leaving the active base of vehicles.  Thus the program needs to be adjusted.

CO, on the other hand has made very little change in their programs to reflect the impact of better technology.  I did some looking at some legislation that is pending and it looks like they may modify the program, but nothing has been voted in yet. Envirotest has been a very active "player" in any attempt to modify our emission laws.

Yes, we have a problem in the Denver area (in a valley and high altitude), but common sense does not seem to prevail.

Please understand, that I am not an expert of emission regulations, but what reading I have done really makes my blood boil.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 10:50:01 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Busted Knuckle
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6447


6 Setras, 2 MCIs, and 1 Dina. Just buses ;D


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2008, 10:35:33 AM »

Quote from: rv_safetyman
CO has copied CA in emission program, from my understanding.  This even includes the same vendors.

As a part of the "front range" (Denver and close surrounding areas) I have to have the bus emission tested each year.  This is a dyno test (very few vendors have that capability) to the tune of $125.  

Yes, we have a problem in the Denver area (in a valley and high altitude), but common sense does not seem to prevail.

Please understand, that I am not an expert of emission regulations, but what reading I have done really makes my blood boil.

Jim just remember CA is moving to CO slowly but surely! At least that is what my sister & B-I-L told me when they moved back this side of the Mississippi for the Georgetown, Empire, Idaho Springs area! LOL!
FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
Logged

Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
makemineatwostroke
Guest

« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2008, 10:47:49 AM »

Jack Bevins is more into his 96 series hp performance engines than the 92's and the jury is still out on his 96 series engines, but the guy worked for DD a long time and bets are on than he will get it right 
have a great day
Logged
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2008, 11:05:00 AM »

Bk you really don't want to get me started Undecided

I did some more research about our program and it just gets me more upset.  I updated my previous post with a few more details.

Having said terrible things about our state system, two things are OK.  First of all, you can license your 25 year old car as a classic and not have to have emissions testing done AND no driving restrictions.  I have three vehicles licensed that way.  I am sure that will change, but SEMA and others have done a lot of lobbying to help with legislation in almost every state for the benefit of folks who enjoy old cars and trucks.  I am pretty sure Colorado has a classic category for large class 8 trucks, but I have not been able to find one for motorhomes or buses over 25 years old (mine is not quite there yet).

Secondly, the opacity allowance currently in place for diesels will pass a two stroke in good condition (at least the turbo versions).  The regulations permit more opacity for non-turbo engines, but I don't know if a non-turbo two stroke would pass.  The bad news is that you must spend $1500 to correct the problem before they will wave the test results.

And yes, we are not really happy with the impact that folks moving from CA have had on our real estate and land values.  I guess if you sold a house to one of them, you would be happy Grin, but raw land values have skyrocketed in the past 10 years.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 11:13:00 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
luvrbus
Guest

« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2008, 11:24:34 AM »

Jim, you guys don't have it bad I live in a suburb of Cal named Arizona, just got my tax bill it went from $938.00 a year to $4918.00 and I am out of here.   

good luck
Logged
quantum500
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 146




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2008, 11:34:41 AM »

There is a ton of info on the net about water injection.  Its been used since WWII in aircraft, so the technology is well tested even if its not all that widely known.  Although I have not been able to find any info on 2-stroke diesels.  Thats why I was asking.  It really knocks down Nox and particulates in 4-strokes and has been touted by some as the only real technology needed to pass emissions.  Of course simple and cheap is never the solution if the epa is involved.
Logged
Busted Knuckle
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6447


6 Setras, 2 MCIs, and 1 Dina. Just buses ;D


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2008, 07:21:11 AM »

Jim, you guys don't have it bad I live in a suburb of Cal named Arizona, just got my tax bill it went from $938.00 a year to $4918.00 and I am out of here.   

good luck

Clifford you better hang on to that property! Some day it will be ocean front! LOL!  Grin
Grin  BK  Grin
Logged

Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!