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Author Topic: '86 Newell  (Read 4744 times)
gus
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« on: December 22, 2008, 12:33:51 PM »

Is a Newell a bus?

 I saw a 42' 1986 with a DD 465 (Is this a two-stroke?) advertised in Stuttgart, AR, which is not too far from me, for $30K which seemed to be a reasonable price but I don't know if it is a S & S or a bus. Does anyone know for sure?
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PD4107-152
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 01:02:10 PM »

Gus I get in trouble every time I give my opinion of a this. But in my opinion Newell is a VERY FINE & WELL BUILT COACH or RV. But that said in my opinion they are a very top of the line superb  S & S! They are built on a chassis rather than a unibody type structure like a bus. And while they do run Detroit & Cummins engines they are much smaller engines and transmissions than MOST (no I am not saying ALL) BUSES and will not last as many miles as a bus. But on the other hand most buses have seen MANY, MANY miles before it is converted so they should and could perform and last close to equal useful lives if properly cared for!
Now as far as how well they are structurally I haven't got a clue! You'll need to speak to Clifford or any others that have or do own one. Also I think Dallas has had extensive hands on experience with one or more!
FWIW Grin  BK  Grin

Oh yeah my personal opinion is that while they are very fine RVs, they really just aren't a "BUS" ! But it is only my opinion and many may, have & will disagree!
But as I have said before "If yer cat had kittens in an old oven in a shed, ya wouldn't call them biscuits would ya?"  Wink
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
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gus
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 02:03:39 PM »

Somehow I thought these things were actual buses but wasn't sure. I thought that they were very common as hi dollar entertainer buses like   Prevost but usually they are so far out of my price range I don't pay much attention.

This one has only 185K miles, not many for a bus but a lot for a S&S. Even if it is not a bus this seems to be a very good price, but not for me, I am highly partial to buses.

If I understand engine ratings correctly this is a 465 hp DD but not sure of that. This sounds like a big four stroke series 60 truck engine to me but I'm hoping someone will post who knows for sure.
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PD4107-152
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gyrocrasher
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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 02:19:29 PM »



If I understand engine ratings correctly this is a 465 hp DD but not sure of that. This sounds like a big four stroke series 60 truck engine to me but I'm hoping someone will post who knows for sure.

I don't know for SURE, but detroit does make a 465hp 60 series. 1986 seems pretty old to have an original 60 in it, though. Mitch
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RichardEntrekin
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 02:25:57 PM »

Let me chime in. Are they a bus? No. Even the owner Karl Blade will quickly tell you Newells are not buses. Are they a S&S RV? No. They are infact a monoque construction, slightly different in design from the MCI's and Prevost's but definitely not a house built on top of a chassis. I'll take pictures of any part of my chassis frame for you if you would like to support my position. The Newells are equipped with very heavy duty suspension components, and up until recently powered by Detroits of the appropriate era.

The customer support from the factory is very friendly. They treat me like I owned one of the new rigs when I call. But I don't call often, for most of the repair parts I have sourced from my local truck shop, home depot, or the McMaster Carr catalog.

If it's an 86, it likely has an 8V92TA with a 740 allison tranny.  Newell didn't put DD 60's into their coaches until mid 94.

I am likely to get flamed for the next comment. When I was looking to get out of a S&S Rv and into a more well built rig, I seriously considered a conversion. I am pretty crafty and know which end of wrench to use as a hammer, but I quickly concluded that I would be hard pressed to convert a bus into the amenities that a late 80's or 90's Newell had for what I could buy one for. That was before I considered my personal time, and the time before the coach was usable.

Go look at it. Crawl under it, and it the bays and see how they did things like piping and wiring. They are old school and solid.

All that said, it will never be a bus, it has no stainless to polish up and shine, but the busnuts will let you on their forum Grin
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Richard Entrekin
95 Newell, Detroit S 60
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cody
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 02:53:04 PM »

I was going to let this slide cause it isn't my concern but as far as the newells go I can't speak for the mechanics of it but I can address the conversion part, the 3 that I redid were very shoddy construction, however, a clever use of low grade plywood and high grade staples, it took very little effort to remove the interior structure, the wall attachment was very questionable, frankly I wasn't impressed at all and I'd be very hesitant to recommend them even tho they are concidered at the top of the high end of S&S units by most converters. The worse of the 3 had left the highway and only entered the median strip, it was totaled, there was no impact with any other vehicle only a blown tire at low speed, the guy that bought it from the insurance company approached me on the interior redo, I figured how bad could it be and told him I'd look at it, the unit was visually somewhat straight however the coach part had shifted almost 6 inches forward and 4 inches to the right front corner, it was now a very nice trapaziod and was actually totaled, after talking to a couple if adjusters about it they said they routinely total newells because of their dismal impact record.  I know that isn't what anyone wants to hear, just what I found after I dug into them, they were a 1988, 1991, and a 1994.  I'd like a blindfold if I'm going to be shot please lol.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 04:16:20 PM »

A Newell is as good as you can  have for a coach they were a little rough for a few years on finish work when the Amish in OK were doing his work but Karl has that problem in check now.Hey BK find a bus on the road using a 625 Hp Cat they are not under powered by no means,I have watched the units being built and was impressed with the construction of the 2000 P mode. one draw back to the Newell it has no resale but what high end coach does    good luck
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cody
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 04:25:58 PM »

could be the ones I worked were the rough years, don't know
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gus
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 04:59:43 PM »

Cody,

Thanks. There is nothing like actual experience. I don't think anyone will be flamed or shot for simple telling of your experience. Flames don't bother me much anyway, probably one of my least worries!

It appears to me that you have answered my question and that it is not a bus as I define one.

To me a monocoque body is essentially one piece like a walnut shell with suspension and engine bolted on. An old VW Bug is the simplest of that form that I can think of. Since you said the body shifted to one corner I assume it has some kind of frame.

Which brings me to another question. Are these huge new boxy buses I see on the road true monocoque also?  They don't appear to be because I would think that a square monocoque would not be very strong. Airplanes are the best examples I can think of and they alll seem to have a lot of curves. These new buses seem to even have a flat roof and appear not to have any curves?

After all this it still appears to me to be a good price if it is anywhere near decent shape. 1986 seems pretty new to me since my 4104 is a '54!!
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PD4107-152
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 05:10:19 PM »

A Newell is as good as you can have for a coach they were a little rough for a few years on finish work when the Amish in OK were doing his work but Karl has that problem in check now.Hey BK find a bus on the road using a 625 Hp Cat they are not under powered by no means,I have watched the units being built and was impressed with the construction of the 2000 P mode. one draw back to the Newell it has no resale but what high end coach does    good luck

Wow 625 CAT, I am impressed! to an extent! And Clifford, Gus, Richard, Cody, Mitch, and KARL I offer my apologies.
I've only ever had my hands on 1 Newell. But then again maybe the coach I worked on was not a Newell, but rather a cheap knock off that the owner was trying to pass off as a Newell to impress people!
I did a service call on one that had limped into the "fuel stop" here in town and barely did at that. He filled it with fuel and it wouldn't restart. But like I said, I later learned it barely made it to the pump on it's own! It had a small Cummins in it (I remember that brown engine to this day!) about 220 hp if I  remember correctly! I also remember it had truck like or schoolie like frame rails running from what part I could see to the back in the engine compartment! Turns out that the fuel filters were FULL of TRASH and I mean FULL of nasty crap! I had to call a buddy of mine in the middle of the night and meet him at his shop to get the new filters. Once I put the new filters on the guy and his wife were in disbelief of how good it ran. They told me they had owned it for over a yr and it had never run that good! Now the only reason I say it was a Newell was it had Newell emblems front and rear and that's what the man said it was! I don't remember what yr it was but it was old! If I had to guess it would be late 70's or early 80's, all I know is they paid me cash & we went our separate ways!
So if it was indeed a clone then please accept my apologies for not knowing better!

So I guess maybe I don't know a Newell from a jewel! Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 02:16:15 AM »

Not wanting to start an argument here, but I would take issue with the presumption that 'it's not a bus if it's not monocoque'. Many many great buses were (and still are) built with bodies on top of frame rails, and this approach does have advantages over a monocoque. When I was looking for a bus a dealer specifically warned me off some modern monocoque buses - the way he illustrated it was by describing the complicated instructions for jacking up some monocoque buses when changing wheels - basically, if you do it wrong the body twists and windows fall out.

I specifically bought a bus with frame rails as I knew I would be installing slideouts, and wanted the inherent strength of a chassis underneath a body that was going to have big holes in the sides.

Most cars and even some 4x4s are monocoque now of course, but the Beetle never was - hence all those people who unbolted and threw away the Beetle body and attached a fibreglass beach buggy body to the floorpan instead.

Jeremy
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cody
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 05:32:31 AM »

Judging by the recent additions to my pile of not so nice emails, I may have stepped on some toes by relating my very limited experiences with newell, I apologize if i may have offended anyone, the newell might be the greated thing since sliced bread, I don't know, like I said my only experience was limited to interior repair, replacement and renewing, mechanically i know nothing about them, I have never owned one so I have no idea if they ride well or not, I really don't know how long they endure on the road or if there is a market for them, I have really no idea, but i do know that in a very short period of time and with very little effort you can have an entire newell interior laying in a lifeless pile on the ground lol.   One example of what I concidered flawed engineering is in the 1988, the mount for the drivers seat was a set of 3/8 inch bolts thru the floor with a large washer on the end and a nut drawing it tight, not a bad idea had the bolt actually found metal instead of being tightened thru and against MDF board, I believe in the case of that particular coach, had the driver expeirenced a frontal impact, the driver would have only been slowed down by the steering wheel as he, the seat, and a fairly large piece of floor became the first ones to the scene of the accident.
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John316
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2008, 05:37:18 AM »

Sorry Cody...That is too bad that you are getting a bunch of email Sad. Oh well, some don't like us to give our opinions. I, for one, appereceatied your thoughts.

Did they give you a blind fold Grin Grin Grin???

Merry Christmas (don't let the emails spoil it),

God bless,

John
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cody
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 05:52:04 AM »

Not a problem john, I also got a few nice emails over it, what we are seeing here is some of the potential battles being played out on the side and not in the public eye lol. I read the good with the bad and I do appreciate both sides of an issue, there are always 2 sides to a pancake regardless how flat it is lol.
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John316
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 06:14:49 AM »

Yup...You got er right there Cody...Glad you don't let the stuff bother you... Grin Grin Grin

Merry Christmas,

God bless,

John
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luvrbus
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2008, 11:14:33 AM »

No bad emails from here Cody I was just impressed with the 2000 P it was a awesome coach stainless steel sides, ZF suspension system, hand crafted solid cherry wood cabinets, you would have liked the workmanship on cabinets and with the C-15 625 hp Cat engine nice rig but too much money for me .BK I threw in the 625 HP Cat so you didn't challenge one thinking it was a 400 hp Cummins  LOL         good luck
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 11:26:02 AM by luvrbus » Logged
Tom Y
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2008, 01:16:23 PM »

I looked at one at a local shop. It was in for warranty work. The pivoting floor for the copilot did not work. Linkage came apart, I was not impressed. They had to call the factory to see how to fix. Pull front wheel cut through foam to access a metal panel. There was some signs of moisture in there already. It was a sharp coach w/slides and the C 15 Cat, all the glitter. Another had a granite bath counter that was already cracked, maybe the same coach.     Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2008, 05:43:34 PM »

I have had 3 Newells over the years and very few problems and the ones I did have were taken care of without any hassles from Newell and Karl Blades.My new coach is a Prevost only because of the price, Newell could not meet the price of the Prevost converter. BTW the Volvo D13 engine in the Prevost is nothing compered to C-15 in the Newell (I like power)   


David
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 05:48:49 PM by VanTare » Logged
Songman
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2008, 05:50:48 PM »

Judging by the recent additions to my pile of not so nice emails, I may have stepped on some toes by relating my very limited experiences with newell...

You got e-mails? That is just pathetic. Is it really going to get so bad that we can't offer opinions here without people sending nasty e-mails? Especially if your opinion comes from actual experience. That is just crazy. We've had two apologies in this thread because people didn't like opinions of other people. I'm glad I don't know anything about Newells!
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2008, 06:11:53 PM »

Quote from: Songman
I'm glad I don't know anything about Newells!

ME TOO!  Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2008, 06:20:42 PM »

I hope I didn't sound to negative. I think Newel was covering the problems. The engine area looked good and clean the way they did it. Better than my work.  Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
cody
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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2008, 06:22:26 AM »

All 3 newells I worked on had been long out of any warrenty so I really don't know how well they take care of their customers, for a company to be in business like they are and charging the prices they are I would think they would have to have a pretty decent support network in place, I've always heard that they were right up by the top of the S&S field, my only experiance is exactly what I said it was, I paid no attention to the mechanics of the coach, only to the interior and what was involved to do what I had been contracted to do, I did think that it was a pretty good looking coach tho and it certainly had it's share of glitz.
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RJ
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2008, 10:55:02 AM »

Gus -

Most of the newer MCIs, Prevosts, etc. are not monocoque in the same sense as your 4104 is.  Today they're built more like the Eagles - a "birdcage" frame with the exterior panels hung on them.

I will be one of the first to admit that I have NO actual experience with either one of these, but for many, many years, the Blue Bird WanderLodge and the Newell have been considered "Top-of-the-Line" in terms of high-end Class A motorhomes.

It's only been w/in the last 15 years or so that the high-end market has embraced the Libertys, Marathons, Royals, Vantares, etc. done on MCI or Prevost shells as equivalents to the Newell or Wanderlodge.  Ostentatious snobbery, if you will. . .  Cheesy

Most of the folk who buy the high-end stuff initially, never, ever, turn a wrench on them, and, for that matter, haven't a clue how to do so.  Then again, if you've got the capital to purchase one new, you've got the capital to have someone else service for you, too.

But to answer the question "Is the Newell a bus", based on the common definition of a bus, then the answer is no.  (The common definition of a bus being a vehicle designed & built to carry passengers in revenue service.)

Based on the question of "is it's chassis construction comparable to a normal bus", then the argument may be made that the construction techniques are very similar.  Whether the quality is there or not is a different argument.

All depends on what your definition of "is" is. . .  Shocked

FWIW, HTH & Merry Christmas!

 Wink
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RJ Long
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cody
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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2008, 11:39:31 AM »

Bluebirds and newells are fine coaches, there is no question on that and we all agree that they are at or near the top of the line for their respective catagories, if either of them were available and at the right price I wouldn't hesitate to buy one, in this hobby we all have preferences that differ, you'll find people that prefer mci, people that prefer eagles and so on, I'd have no qualms in buying one if the right situation presented itself because I feel that in the market they are filling you'll find people that want certain bells and whistles that they have in abundance, I don't believe that a company will go out of their way to build a bad coach, they all build to suit a particular niche, based on that I think the same rules would apply, have it inspected by a qualified mechanic and based on your needs and final inspection, if the coach fills the need and useages your intending, I would think it would be a good buy.
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« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2008, 12:27:03 PM »

Interesting reading.  Thanks for sharing your experiences with the group cody.  Much appreciated.   Grin

Kind Regards, Phil
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gus
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2008, 03:06:20 PM »

I'm not sure yet if I know yet exactly whether or not a Newell is a bus but i sure know a lot more about them than I did.

Jeremy,

As I understand it the method of attaching the bottom of the body does not determine whether or not it is a monocoque. It can be bolted, welded or riveted among others and still be a monocoque.

In any case I always thought dune buggies were FG bodies with VW suspension and engines bolted on.

In the case of the 4104 the bottom is angle framing and bolted plywood while the rest is riveted Al panels.

To me it means no separate frame.

RJ,

Thanks,

That answers a bunch of my questions.
.............

As for the short tempers and delicate egos. Please guys, give it a break. Disagreement is what life is all about and if you pay close attention sometimes you can even learn something!

It is actually possible than one can sometimes be wrong!
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PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
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