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Author Topic: Priming Question  (Read 4290 times)
pickpaul
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« on: January 12, 2009, 03:45:47 PM »

I'm going to check out an MCI in a day or two where the owner let the bus run out of fuel so it needs priming. I have some experience of this from my old Diesel Mercedes that was converted to veggie oil and I would like to attempt to get it to start.

My initial plan was to put fuel in the tank then find the fuel return hose and use a hand operated vacuum pump to suck fuel from the return line at the engine but I just read the archives and found the MAK dish soap bottle trick. My question is, what type of tool do you need to remove the plug from the secondary filter housing? how do I locate it? What is the best method for removing the filters to refill? Any other tips for someone who has never touched a bus or DD before and is generally not mechanically talented. Please assume zero knowledge!

Thanks, Paul.
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jhaggerty
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 04:00:04 PM »

Hi Paul

I have run the bus out of fuel too. The priming method the guys recommend here is supposed to work well. At the time, I didn't know the secret. Needless to say it took some time. My only advice is to make sure you have lots of battery. It doesn't take too many revolutions before the spinning starts to slow down. Just my experience.

Jim
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luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 04:34:53 PM »

Paul, some will use a 5/16 allen wrench and some will have a brass plug with 9/16 head on it    good luck
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pickpaul
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 04:39:16 PM »

My only advice is to make sure you have lots of battery. It doesn't take too many revolutions before the spinning starts to slow down. Just my experience.

Great point. I have very heavy duty jumper cables, can they be used to add some juice or won't it work due to the 12v 24v issue? Can I connect them to one of the 2 batteries as you normally would? I'd hate to fry my car or the bus.

FYI, it's a 96-A(W)2 with the 6 cyl Turbo DD.

Paul.

P.S. Dare I pose the ether question? Where would one buy it/add it?

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pickpaul
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 04:40:27 PM »

Paul, some will use a 5/16 allen wrench and some will have a brass plug with 9/16 head on it    good luck

Where in the engine bay should I look to find it or is it obvious?
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Blacksheep
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 04:46:21 PM »

If you have been following the thread about my recent adventure you will see that I was going to install a fuel pressure gauge just today in that same "PLUG" on the secondary filter housing BUT as luck would have it, being brass and screwed into aluminum or pot metal it has literally grown (froze) to the point that it isn't coming out. I all but chewed every bit of the square off using very tight vice grips before giving up! I decided that a new housing is 35 bucks from DD and a lot less hassles especially if I broke the housing and had fuel running everywhere just before closing! Just beware that that "PLUG" could be frozen! Then again, you may have better luck than me lately!

Ace
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luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 04:55:05 PM »

Paul,use a 6 point box end wrench and they will come out        good luck
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Blacksheep
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 04:59:14 PM »

LuvRbus True and that is what I tried first but if the one looks at is half as bad as mine then he better be prepared for the worst!

Ace
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edroelle
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 05:09:21 PM »

Yes you can jump one 12 Volt battery on your bus, with a car.  If you have a second car or charger, and a second set of cables, you can jump the second battery also.  12v to12v, positive to positve and negative to negative.

I have primed a few buses with a garden sprayer.   Attach a fitting to sprayer hose, and screw into the output of the primary filter so that you are feeding the fuel pump.  I like to try to pump while someone is cranking the engine.  This worked even after the bus failed to start after refilling the filters full.

Ed Roelle
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luvrbus
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2009, 05:10:26 PM »

yep Ace they can be a PITA if somebody has used a pipe wrench or vice grips before what works for me is a stud remover if they are rounded off too bad or take the base off and drill it out    good luck
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2009, 05:18:01 PM »

Paul, not telling you to do this but this is what I would do.

Get 3 cans of cheap either, (not Dupont) put your fuel in it. Have a friend start it and hold the pedal to the medal, use the first can of either to run it about 1200 RPM, (thats all you can get with 1 can) that will throw some oil on the cylinder walls but it won't prime it. After the first can is gone, have your friend restart it. Start it and get it running on 1 can, have another can in your other hand and spray both cans at the same time until the engine hits the governor. (Not long), (Your friend will have to have been holding the throttle wide open). When the engine hits the governor, (wide open) the system is primed. When you take the either away the engine will continue to run WOT until your friend lets his foot off the throttle. This won't work on DDEC because DDEC won't open the rack without a fuel signal.
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2009, 05:43:49 PM »

I have seen an 8v71 successfully primed with ether even without the accelerator being depressed.  I always wondered though if this was a safe procedure.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2009, 06:24:25 PM »

 If that bus is a 8v71 no way would I use 3 cans of ether to try and prime it I am sure NJT 5573 knows how to use ether but if you get a build up of ether in the air box it is off to the races and the governor will have no control on that engine.  Prime the engine and use a small amount of ether you take a chance on breaking the compression rings on a 2 stroke when trying to run it on ether       good luck
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 06:34:16 PM by luvrbus » Logged
pickpaul
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 06:27:33 PM »

Interesting. I don't think I'll try the either trick but out of interest, does a 96-A(W)2 with the 6 cyl Turbo DD have DDEC?
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Timkar
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2009, 07:13:18 PM »

Depends on the year whether or not it will have DDEC.
Attached is picture of the 102A2 I had with the 6V92.
White circle is where you can possibly expect to find
fuel filters


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pickpaul
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2009, 07:28:55 PM »

Wow, thanks for the pic, that's really helpful.

I forgot to mention the year in my question. It's an 87 - DDEC or not?
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Timkar
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2009, 07:44:44 PM »

Hard to say. From what I have read DDEC was introduced in 1985,
but I don't know when they became "common" .
That coach I posted the engine pic of is an 86 and doesn't have DDEC.
I have had an 86 Eagle (6V92) and an 88 Eagle (8V92) and neither of them
were DDEC.
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pickpaul
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2009, 10:58:19 PM »

White circle is where you can possibly expect to find
fuel filters

How do I tell which is the secondary filter?
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4905 doc
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 05:51:39 AM »

A garden sprayer and some liquid wd40 will get your rig started. remove the air cleaner and have someone turn the engine over while spraying. it'll start and it's way safer than ether. if you really want to use ether, be mighty careful. It doesn't take much to ether-lock a motor.
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 08:46:37 AM »

There have been lots of threads on priming an engine.  In this thread, there have been some good recommendations (not sure I feel good about starting fluid, and I am told that WD 40 no longer works as good now that they no longer use propane as the propellant).

For those that have their own bus, there are two things I would consider:

1)  Install and electric fuel pump in a parallel system (with valves to control source of supply). 

2)  I strongly suggest that folks replace their filters with a DD/Davco Fuel Pro 382 filter: http://www.davcotec.com/DFP-_fp382.htm.  That makes changing the filter a piece of cake and eliminates the chance of loosing the prime.  Further, it tells you WHEN to change the filter and lets you see what your fuel looks like (air, algae, etc).  Kind of pricey, but well worth it in my opinion.

Jack Conrad wrote about it in another thread (maybe one of Ace's). 

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2009, 09:51:03 AM »

FWIW, open the door for the fuel tank and see if there is a pump in there. Mine, an ex NJT,  had a piming pump and valve already installed. When my bus ran out, all I had to do was get 12 volts to the pump (actually repalce the pump, but thats another story), close the valve and wait a few min. Others here can tell you more about it..
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John P, Lewiston NY   1987 MC 9 ...ex NJT
pickpaul
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2009, 11:20:22 AM »

I strongly suggest that folks replace their filters with a DD/Davco Fuel Pro 382 filter
Jim

So you only need to buy one and use it to replace the primary and secondary filters Jim?
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2009, 11:44:43 AM »

The instructions for the Fuel Pro 282 suggest you remove both OEM filters from the system and only go through the FP filter. 

Folks have pointed out that you are at risk if the fuel pump would gall, as there is no downstream filter to catch the parts.  I have heard of folks leaving the secondary filter in the system.  I would not think you would ever have to replace it, since the FP will do the job.

Many of the trucks I have looked at, use this system.  I think it is offered as an OEM option.  Maybe if Tom C sees this, he can confirm.

UPDATE:  I just looked at the installation instructions and they do confirm that the DP can be the only fuel filter in your system.  Here is link to the instructions:  http://www.davcotec.com/pdf/Diesel-FuelProcessors/F1242I-382InstallationInstr.pdf

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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Blacksheep
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2009, 12:03:38 PM »

Just got home from the Tampa DD Dealer and they had one on display! Cost not installed was a mere 599.00

Ace
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Lin
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2009, 01:20:37 PM »

They run about $250. as Ebay buy-it-now.  What do the experts say about living without secondary filter? 
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2009, 05:50:24 PM »

Ace, there are all kinds of options for the filter.  DD tends to put all of the $$$ heater options and that seems to really boost the cost.

I think the basic unit is somewhere in the $350 range.

As someone pointed out, you can find them on Ebay. 

In another thread, there is discussion of fuel flow for a two stroke (lots of fuel returned to the tank to cool the injectors).  It is pretty high, so do not go with less that the 382 model

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2009, 06:24:39 PM »

I personally don't like the Dacvo fuel pro some of my trucks have it and some don't you are still changing filters and a few Davco filters will not interchange with other manufactures filters and are hard to find and very expensive to replace.CAT requires a double  Davco filter for use on the CAT engine.The Fuel Pro is not a trouble free unit we carry the emergency spin on filters for ours that have the system in case it does quit and they do from time to time in the middle of no where   

David
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2009, 07:50:10 PM »

I bought a small 12v pump at Advance auto for app $20.00 Mounted it permanent. Put a tee in the main fuel supply at filter. Thru. the pump and into one of the two extra ports on the primary filter. Used a small shutoff valve to stop when not in use. Loose prime? Flip the switch, let it run for a minute and your ready to start!!! I just kept the pump loose for a long time thinking I would find the reason I lost prime occasionally. New fuel line and check valve and still after several days occasionally loose it . NO MORE!!!
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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2009, 08:22:10 PM »

The secondary filter is the front filter.  There should be two filters hanging on the RH lower engine cradle.     
DDEC 1 became pretty common in '87.  Still, most '87s were MUI.  DDEC was limited to major city transit service where emissions were a concern.   If your bus has a push-button transmission shifter, it's a DDEC (probably).  If the bus has a shift tower with a lever selector, it's an MUI (Mechanical Unit Injection).
It may be worth your time to install a remote fuel tank to the primary filter with some sort of primer system.  You could use a remote 6 gallon boat fuel tank filled with diesel.   Then attach the fuel line to some sort of cheapo electric fuel pump.  Connect the outlet to the primary filter. You could drive the bus  if you can safely secure the fuel tank in the engine service area. 
Keep it safe.   
You can jump directly to the rear battery for 12V power for the fuel primer pump.   An outboard fuel line primer bulb will prime the engine, but you do some serious squeezing to pump the air thru.
This would not prime the bus fuel tank lines, but it would allow you to operate the engine.
Unless you got jumpers from #^#$%, that ain't gonna crank the bus.  You need two good fully charged group 31s or 8ds to start the engine.  This is especially so if it's cool when you try to start the engine.   A well used engine may not start at much below 50*.   If the engine has a block heater (lower RH rear of engine behind fuel filters) plug it up for a couple of hours for easy start.   
Once you purge the air from the fuel pump and injectors, it should fire right up.   Using a remote tank won't take long to purge air from the engine fuel system.  If no block heater, expect a ton of white smoke.   Should clear up in a minute or two. 
If the bus is a DDEC, priming the bus fuel tank could be problematic without an electric primer pump installed...temporary install is OK. 
 
Good luck, JR

 
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2009, 01:47:10 PM »

Can't help you much with the prime except to say from my reading, if you plan on having a bus an electric fuel pump seems to be a good thing to have on hand.  I would buy one now for future uses.  As far as starting a bus with unknown batteries I'm pretty good at that.  By all means if you can get your car near the batts that will help.  I use my portable generator and a biggish battery charger to help starting in the cold, as well as ether.  I have a NA 6-71 so I think the batt requirements are alot lower thatn a a turboed 6V92.
I can start my 6-71 some ether and one  group 31 on a cold -10 C day if the battery is fully charged.
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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2009, 07:29:00 PM »

Can't help you much with the prime except to say from my reading, if you plan on having a bus an electric fuel pump seems to be a good thing to have on hand.  I would buy one now for future uses.  As far as starting a bus with unknown batteries I'm pretty good at that.  By all means if you can get your car near the batts that will help.  I use my portable generator and a biggish battery charger to help starting in the cold, as well as ether.  I have a NA 6-71 so I think the batt requirements are alot lower thatn a a turboed 6V92.
I can start my 6-71 some ether and one  group 31 on a cold -10 C day if the battery is fully charged.

Don't forget that MCIs have 24V systems.  Gotta have two batteries wired in series to start the bus. 
The bus starter may look like a dead short to a car battery and alternator.   In any event, it would take two vehicles to do the 24V jump...or one 24V bus or truck.   I wouldn't want my car attached to a bus...not that it wouldn't work if the bus batteries are almost charged.   
If the subject bus has been sitting so long that the batteries are dead, a borrowed set of batteries hardwired will be the most efficient way to start it..if not the only way.   Dinking around with a 24V system and jumper cables could make smoke...maybe $$.  Huh
Your 6/71N probably has a higher compression ratio than a turbo 6V92TA.  Still, a 6/71 may turn over easier due to the smaller displacement.  Neither one will turn easily in this crap weather we're having in North Carolina...this 'global warming' is about to kill me!  Alas, I digress.  Wink
JR


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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2009, 07:46:40 PM »

This is getting a little beyond Paul's question, but here is a picture of the plumbing and electric fuel pump i installed on my 871. You can see the filters. It really works great but my DD mechanic buddy tells me its overkill. He primes them with ether.

Good Luck Paul.
Fred
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Fred Thomson
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« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2009, 04:07:14 AM »

IMHO ether should be an absolute last resort.  In the OP's case it sounded like he was going to look at somebody else's bus.  No way I'd let a stranger walk up to an engine I owned & start feeding it ether.  I have primed many diesel engines with a piece of inner tube strapped over the fuel filler.  Cut a hole out of an old inner tube around the valve stem such that you end up with a circle of rubber about 10" in diameter with the valve stem in the middle.  Use a gear clamp to attach the rubber to the filler.  Loosen the fuel out line from whichever filter you are changing (really just need to loosen something downstream of the last point you have disturbed).  Put some air pressure to the tank - it doesn't take much - and wait for fuel to flow wherever you have loosened the line.  This system is KISS simple, the inner tube patch will ride along without taking up any room and you are good to go as long as you have a source of air.  I'm always concerned about not putting too much air to the fuel tank and creating a bomb but the likely reality is that the inner tube attachment to the filler tube will leak so much air that you will never get any serious pressure in the tank anyway. 
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