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Author Topic: DD 2 stroke oil?  (Read 5037 times)
Rick Brown
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« on: January 17, 2009, 10:00:29 AM »

I've been using Shell Rotella T30 in my 8v71, but now the local shell distributor tells me he no longer has that.  My understanding is the magic oil specification is "CF2" for that engine.  Shell sent me to another distributor who sold me Valvoline "Non Detergent SAE 30 Motor Oil" exceeds API service SB.
Anybody know if that is really suitable for DD 2 stroke engines?
Thanks
-RickBrown in Reno, NV
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belfert
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2009, 10:08:50 AM »

Have you tried Tractor Supply or a farm and fleet type place?  I think Tractor Supply still has CF2 oil, at least last I was there a year or two ago.  I don't pay too much attention to CF2 oil since I have a four stroke.

Someone else can speak for sure on non-detergent oil, but I am pretty sure you don't want that for even your lawnmower engine.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2009, 10:15:20 AM »

You need to use 40w CF2 oil.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2009, 10:36:00 AM »

Been meaning to ask this for awhile so I'll add this to yet another DD 2stroke oil thread.  The manual for my engine (6-71N) says 30 W oil.  On this board and every where else everyone says 40W.  I personally have been known to run 10W higher than suggested on high milage gas engines so I'm thinking maybe there is a tradition of running 10 W higher on DD.  The other thought is that at some point DD changed the recommendation for 2 stroke oil.  If DD did change the spec on oil when was it?  BTW my DD book also says to run 20W in the winter, but as mine seems to start with 30W at -10C and I don't plan on using it in the winter  I will not have to do that. Finally Walmart sells 30W and 40W CF2 oil in the summer and 20W and 30W CF2 in the winter, that is here in Canada but in the MN I saw the same last year.  I agree that tractor supply would also be a good place to look. 
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wildbob24
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2009, 01:36:48 PM »

Rick,

"S" designated oils are for gasoline engines.....DO NOT use this stuff in your DD two stroke.

What Prevost82 said is correct.

Bob
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2009, 01:43:11 PM »

I was just over at Mills Fleet Farm and they have 30W and 40W CF-2 in two gallon containers for $20.49.  Mills Fleet Farm is in Minnesota and Wisconsin, but similiar stores and chains exist in many areas of the USA.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2009, 03:30:57 PM »

I found it hard to get Rotella straight 40 weight also. The local distributor had a different brand but only multi viscosity in Rotella and couldn't get it. A search on the internet showed them as being the place to go for straight 40 weight Rotella in my area. I also looked at the local farm store (Orshlens) and they couldn't get it. One day I was getting something else there and they had it. I bought the 9 gallons they had and am waiting for a couple more if it ever shows up. I would rather stay with the Rotella but everyone else has different brands. Later
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2009, 03:51:33 PM »

I finally found a NAPA dealer that would listen to me and look it up and they found they could order Rotella 40w and got 2 gallons for me.   I have found that Walmart and Tractor Supply both have Rotella 30w on their shelves.   On another note, I had a synthetic manufacture say their oil was ok also but I'm not comfortable with trying that.
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Barn Owl
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2009, 05:16:49 PM »

Exxon/Mobil XD-3
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2009, 10:04:01 PM »

non-detergent oil is not for bus engines, or any engines for that matter.

No detergent, nothing in the oil to clean and trap the nasty dirt.

That popularly gets used as hydraulic oil. My Ferris lawn mower calls for it in the hydrostatic drive.

Don't go back there, except to return that oil.

A distributor should be willing to order you the oil you need. Find out what the case lots are and buy in those proportions to make it easy...you need them more than they need you...

Keep the next oil change on hand, so that you have time to find, order and wait.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2009, 12:46:42 AM »

There is an interesting article about different oils and Detroit Diesels at:  http://www.tejascoach.com/tejasoil.html 

In general the conclusion of this lengthy and interesting discussion is that these three oils are all within Detroit's specifications.

  • Chevron Delo 100          
  • Exxon XD-3                   
  • Shell Rotella 40T           

My local parts store, as suggested in this article, can get Delo100, I'm a happy camper!

As I'm anything but an expert on Detroit Diesels, I'll defer to others learned opinion. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 01:07:36 AM by MattC » Logged

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cody
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2009, 07:38:21 AM »

I'm corn-fused as usuall, we can get rotella 40w up here because of the large number of older logging trucks and equipment, where my confusion come in is that my motor seems to have a problem, the oil doesn't seem to go down much, we did about 8 thousand miles last year and it used about 3 quarts, and no, it's not getting water or anything else into it.  We went from Upper Michigan to tennessee in our "run to the sun", while we were visiting BK and his family we put the bus in the shop and changed the oil, from bk's in tenn we headed for florida and jacks rally, enjoyed that and then spent some time at jacks before heading back to the snowbelt, back at bk's the oil was down almost a quart, I topped it off and when we got back up in Upper Michigan it was down almost another quart. After tearing up the midwest thruout the summer, we had to put in another quart. Seems strange to me cause I'm being told that detroits are bad for leaking or using oil, why isn't my 6V92 doing that or like dallas says there isn't any oil in it lol.  I was told the engine was rebuilt before i got it but i have no proof and the engine doesn't reflect any strange cleaning or showing new gasket material hanging out at odd angles.  Anyway I am enjoying learning about oils and what kinds of oil I can use in the future when the oil drys up in the ground and the arabs are all keeping it for themeselves and I check it and find out i need a quart lol.
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buswarrior
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 07:58:31 AM »

cody, a little secret...

busnuts are notorious for buying worn out stuff and thinking that it's condition is normal...

You've checked for other fluids, notably fuel, so you're fine.

your consumption sounds good to me, and some others will be envious.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2009, 08:45:35 AM »

Cody, you've got a serious problem there buddy.  Hurry, get a gallon of delo 100 and pour it all over the outside of the engine.  Then your engine will fit right in with the rest of us.   Grin Grin Grin Grin
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cody
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2009, 08:50:12 AM »

I really don't have a clean engine, a good friend on mine has an mci and we caravan a lot to bluegrass things, stuff like that, I follow him so that I can rust proof my bus early in the season, once i have a proper coating then he'll follow me for the rest of the summer. ( can I say that here? lol)
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luvrbus
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2009, 12:30:40 PM »

Rick, this engine oil  topic is beat to death here and other boards but the fact is no oil has more than 1% ash now CF is the rating now Delo 400 is the same oil now as  Delo 100 and the guys are telling you not to use any oil with a S rating and that is wrong in the Detroit book it will tell you can use it.The Delo will have a rating on the can CF/SL.I have owned 2 strokes for years and never bought into the idea that Delo 100 was the oil invented for the 2 strokes.Do your research and you will find out that any straight w oil will work that is on todays market     good luck
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belfert
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2009, 12:41:00 PM »

That oil I found at Fleet Farm is a house brand, but I believe it is made by Citgo.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2009, 06:56:02 PM »

we've always been able to order the Rotella T 40.  in Bushnell, fl, no one had it in stock, but in Arcadia, they seemed primed for the bus rally, or else Jack had been using so much that they readily stocked it.  i thought the price was really low until i found the new case was 1/2 the old case.  only 3 gallons.

NAPA has also always been able to get it for us, although not always in stock at the time we stop.

Cody, our oil consumption dropped after we got our jakes put on and changed out a saturated and leaking oil line.  i suspect that is the usual problem.  my bus still does mark a pmail for other buses to note, but now its just the slobber tubes, not the general mess it was.

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Tom
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2009, 12:17:25 AM »


Rick, this engine oil  topic is beat to death here and other boards but the fact is no oil has more than 1% ash now CF is the rating now Delo 400 is the same oil now as  Delo 100 and the guys are telling you not to use any oil with a S rating and that is wrong in the Detroit book it will tell you can use it.The Delo will have a rating on the can CF/SL.I have owned 2 strokes for years and never bought into the idea that Delo 100 was the oil invented for the 2 strokes.Do your research and you will find out that any straight w oil will work that is on todays market     good luck




Luvrbus -

I am going to respectfully disagree with you vehemently about Delo 400 being the same oil as Delo 100.  Please read the third paragraph in the LH column on Page 2 of this link, directly from Chevron, dated 14 July 2008:

https://www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/MSDS/PDS7668851.PDF

Also, look at the chart further down the page:  On the line "sulfated ash", you'll see that Delo 400 exceeds the "less than 1%" recommended by Detroit for the two-strokes, which can be found in Section 2.2 in this publication:

http://www.detroitdiesel.com/support/on-highway/manuals/Lubricants_Fuels_Coolants/7se270.pdf

Detroit specifically states in several places that only CF-2 oils should be used in the two-strokes, and only oils with 1% or less sulfated ash content.  Nowhere do they say that "S" oils are OK.

Please note that I am NOT saying that Delo 100 is the only oil to be used in the two strokes.  There are other oils on the market (Shell Rotella, Exxon/Mobil XD-3, Detroit's Delvac, Citgo's Low Ash Transit, etc.) that meet DDA's specs, what I am saying is that Chevron themselves specifically say that Delo 400 should NOT be used in a DD two-stroke.


Rick -

Since I've mentioned Chevron's Delo, you might try contacting these two Chevron products distributors in your area, if you're interested:

Sierra Energy
995 S McCarran Blvd #103
Sparks
775-829-1097

or

Western Energetix
655 S Stanford Wy
Sparks/Reno
775-689-1234


FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink

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RJ Long
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2009, 06:04:48 AM »

RJ, I guess we are reading from different DD books my 92 manual (1988) section 13 page 2 says you can use a some S rated oils and the engine oils of today have less than 1% ash per EPA and will have no ash after 2010 read a Delco 400 jug and it will state meets all CF ratings on the 40W and CF-4 for the 15-40.Another bit of info you for my engine is still under warranty and Stewart and Stevenson change my oil and like when they rebuilt the engine they put 40w Delo 400 again.You guys should read the fuel specs on a 2 stroke it is not a problem now with today's fuel but it was in the past and nobody paid any attention to it and the engine survived for years.    good luck
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 06:46:57 AM by luvrbus » Logged
buswarrior
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2009, 06:36:48 AM »

Let's remember, we're on our own, time stopped back in the mid 90's with regard to the venerable 2 stroke Detroit.

Who, worthy of consideration, is conducting the expensive trials necessary to comment on the effects of the newer technology oils being put in an older 2 stroke? There's no payback on the research.

Sure, Detroit will continue to make income off replacement parts, but the engineering is long done. They're just cranking out copies.

Let's also remember that Detroit was capable of big screw ups, some will have the fabled high mileage oil change recommendations in print in their manuals of the correct vintage. As time went by, Detroit changed their mind. Well, as noted, there is no time going by anymore, so there's no one to change their mind, or further support, the last of the "new ideas".

You can be sure of one thing, if you feed your engine an oil that meets or exceeds the details recommended by Detroit, you'll not go far wrong. Remember, recommended, not acceptable....

To the novice oil buyer, the "CF-2" designation is not enough. Many of the oils available have too high an ash content. You need to see the Material Safety Data Sheet, MSDS, and find the ash content. The further below 1% the better.

And in particular, off brand cheap oils must be regarded with suspicion, especially in our post diesel particulate filter emission control days. Ash is one of the things they are removing from the new oils as it is harmful to the DPF on a post 2007 engine. What will they do with a batch of oil that doesn't meet the new spec? Will they de-rate it to an older spec and off brand it?

And perhaps some relevance... what busnut is going to put the mileage on that it's going to matter whether they get 200 000 miles, or they get 500 000 miles, out of the engine?

Time for a coffee?

happy coaching!
buswarrior





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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2009, 06:50:02 AM »

... the engine oils of today have less than 1% ash per EPA and will have no ash after 2010 read a Delco 400 jug and it will state meets all CF ratings on the 40W and CF-4 for the 15-40.

https://www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/MSDS/PDS766887.PDF

Chevron's 2008 MSDS for Delo 400 also references meeting all CF ratings, but it also states that the ash content is 1.35% on the 40wt.

And perhaps some relevance... what busnut is going to put the mileage on that it's going to matter whether they get 200 000 miles, or they get 500 000 miles, out of the engine?

Unless of course, your engine already has 200,000 miles on it.  Or even 150,000 like mine.  And your budget could not cover a rebuild or even a working takeout transplant.  Then it becomes VERY relevant.
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2009, 07:15:43 AM »

Also from the Chevron Data sheets:

Delo 400 - https://www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/MSDS/PDS7668831.PDF

Quote
APPLICATIONS
Chevron Delo 400 oils are mixed-fleet motor oils
recommended for all four-stroke gasoline diesel
engines operating under severe service and subjected
to wide variations in climatic conditions.


Delo 100 - https://www.cbest.chevron.com/generated/MSDS/PDS7668475.PDF

Quote
APPLICATIONS
Chevron Delo 100 Motor Oils are recommended for use
in two- and four-stroke diesel engines in farm
machinery, construction equipment, marine, and other
off-highway applications.


(I guess they think, like most folks today, that 2-stroke engines aren't used on highway anymore.)

Also on the Delo 100 sheet:

Quote
comply with Detroit Diesel Corporation twostroke
engine recommendations, including the
0.85% ash maximum limit for Series 149 engines.


On the current Detroit Diesel Engine Lubrication Requirements datasheet - http://direct.detroitdiesel.com/Public/brochures/7SE270.pdf

For engine series "53, 71, 92 All Applications" it specifies 40wt with a sulphated ash content of less than 0.85% or 50wt with less than 0.80% ash.


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luvrbus
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2009, 07:16:40 AM »

Hightech, read the spec sheets that are available from any oil supplier and you will find that no engine oil manufactured in the USA after Jan 2008 and all will have less than 1% ash it is the law now, this is all I will say about this oil matter.  good luck
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buswarrior
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2009, 07:39:44 AM »

luvrbus, yes, the folks who refuse to keep up with the advances are frustrating, aren't they?

Please, let's be careful in tossing the "law" around, it's misleading.

To clarify, the "law" via the EPA, requires certain limits on exhaust outputs of the new engines, not oil formulation.

The elimination of ash in oil is not regulated per se, however, if an oil manufacturer wants to sell their oil, they need to formulate it so as to protect the mandated emission equipment. It would play hell if an engine manufacturer recommended NOT using your oil!!!

Moving forward, since everything new uses multi-grade oil,

How rare will it will be to find a single weight oil that is formulated to the new standards?
How soon until there will be no reference (and no testing) to Detroit Diesel 2-stroke standards?

I expect the market place will stay as it is now. The existing short list of "old style" oils, ie: Delo 100, Exxon XD3, Shell Rotella 40T, PetroCanada has one,  until there is no profitable demand for them.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

 
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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2009, 07:51:59 AM »

BW, your right I should have said that EPA mandates that engines oils contains less than 1% ash after Jan 2008 and it is frustrating some time if guys can not read about it on some web page it didn't happen. good luck
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« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2009, 08:05:52 AM »

I stand corrected.  I guess someone should let Chevron know that their current (July 2008) Delo 400 data sheet is incorrect.
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« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2009, 08:29:01 AM »

I always carry two cases of Delo 100 40w with me in case I want an oil change on the road, and more specifically from any type of failure.  4 years ago, coming back from Rickreall, Or I was on Calif highway 299 from Redding to Eureka when my oil filter broke off dumping the oil out of the engine very quickly.  I had enough oil to refill my crankcase after the mechanic installed a replacement oil filter on the shoulder.  It is too hard to find the oil not to have it with you.
As to oils for 2 strokes-simple- if it is above 32 degrees, straight 40 CF-2 rated oil.  If you're running below 32 during the day, straight 30 CF-2 rated oil. NEVER 15w-40, and NEVER non detergent oils.  2 strokes naturally burn oil.  Anything from 800 miles a gallon (the lowest) to around 3,000 miles a gallon is normal.  If yours is higher, have the oil analyzed for fuel in the oil.  May have a leaking fuel injector that is adding to the oil supply.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2009, 08:43:49 AM »

Fellows you need to check the ratings on Delo 400 I have a D13 Volvo in my coach and the manual call for less than 1% ash oil and 400 is on the list and also my 60 series in the trucks calls for the same and I use 400 15-40 in all 28 trucks.When I get time today I will check the contents on one of the barrels, but I do know that engine oils where reformulated last year as the other 2 have stated. maybe Chevron needs to update their rating which they will do when all the old formula oils are gone.   


David
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2009, 08:46:04 AM »

David- 2 stroke engines require CF-2 rated oils-that are nothing like the new current 15w-40 oils with low ash for use in the new engines that have particulate traps.  Please don't intermix the two.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2009, 09:00:00 AM »

TomC I went into the shop and read the label on the drums the CF-4 15-40 400 is for the newer engines but the drums I have for my two cycle engines and I have 11 of them in different equipment reads Delo100/ 400 CF-2 40 W so I am not confussing anything and these are new drums I just got last week .I spoke with my oil supplier for a few minutes and was told the 2 in CF rating stands for single weight oil



David
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 09:07:21 AM by VanTare » Logged
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