Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
September 21, 2014, 05:13:33 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you had an E-Mag Subscription: It will not get torn up or crushed if you back over it with your bus.
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Undercarriage shop along I-20 corridor?  (Read 5646 times)
bobofthenorth
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2082



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2009, 01:37:26 PM »

As usual Gerald has nailed the simple cost effective solution.  The only thing I would add to his instructions - and its something that a good weld shop should know anyway - is to NOT weld at right angles to the box section frame member.  IOW, the ends of the fillet plates that Gerald referred to should be pointed with stitch welds to hold them to the surface of the frame but under no circumstances should they be cut off square and welded across the frame member.  You can weld lengthwise on that frame to your heart's content but don't weld across it unless you want it to crack.
Logged

R.J.(Bob) Evans
1981 Prevost 8-92, 10 spd
My website
Our weblog
Simply growing older is not the same as living.
Don4107
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 407





Ignore
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2009, 02:37:28 PM »

What ever you choose to do be sure that the shop that does the repair can also do the alignment.  If the attachments are tweaked you may not have adjustment to get proper alignment.  I made that mistake once.  Frame repair looked great, body panels fit right, couldn't get proper alignment. Angry 

Hard to tell with just one pix, but I would lean toward straightening the existing A-frame.  A good frame man can make it look like new, avoiding the potential problems of not having all the necessary parts.  Which ever way you go, the shop needs to be capable of either repair.  If you choose to replace the A-frame the attachment points may need some work to get them aligned for the one shot you have at installing the pins by the book.

So let's see, all you need is a good frame shop, one that can do the alignment, a good man to do the repair, a shop with a pit that can accommodate Odyssey,  and a bar nearby to calm your nerves.  Smiley

Good luck
Don 4107
Logged

Don 4107 Eastern Washington
1975 MCI 5B
1966 GM PD 4107 for sale
1968 GMC Carpenter
bobofthenorth
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2082



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2009, 02:44:01 PM »

So let's see, all you need is a good frame shop, one that can do the alignment, a good man to do the repair, a shop with a pit that can accommodate Odyssey,  and a bar nearby to calm your nerves.  Smiley

And you've already got about 100 internet experts to give you free advice.  Lucky you!!  BTDT.  Good luck. Smiley
Logged

R.J.(Bob) Evans
1981 Prevost 8-92, 10 spd
My website
Our weblog
Simply growing older is not the same as living.
Sean
Geek.
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2553


'85 Neoplan Spaceliner "Odyssey"


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2009, 03:09:37 PM »

Electricity ... will take the easiest path between ... two places every time.


Actually, Bob, technically, the electricity will take all the paths between them, not just the "easiest."  This is simple to prove -- run, say, a 2" long piece of 0000 and a 1,000' long piece of #14 between the same two points.  Apply a voltage, and measure the current.  While the current in the #14 will be very small, it will not be zero.

So the same is true for welding.  If you had a ring of metal, like a hula hoop, and put your ground clamp on it, then welded something an inch or two away from that ground clamp, you will still see quite a measurable current at the spot on the hula hoop diametrically opposed to the weld.   In a very large mass of metal, like a bus, the current will go everywhere, and it will certainly be infinitesimal in most places.  But it will not be zero anyplace.

Whether that current will be enough to harm any given piece of electronics is debatable.  Many items can not tolerate any reverse bias whatsoever (where the ground becomes positive with respect to the supply).  I can tell you, though, that ECMs have, indeed, been fried by welding that was nowhere near them.  You could argue that the welder was sloppy when attaching his clamp, perhaps.  But, again, I won't take the chance, and I would not advise anyone else here to do so either.

JMO, and FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

Logged

Full-timing in a 1985 Neoplan Spaceliner since 2004.
Our blog: http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean
Geek.
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2553


'85 Neoplan Spaceliner "Odyssey"


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2009, 03:19:20 PM »

OK, so I have another question for the torch/cut/weld proponents:

I'm trying to imagine what all this heat will do to the pivot bushings.  I believe these are permanently greased items with some kind of polymer layer between the inner and outer components.

Does anyone know for certain if the heat of cutting and welding, or the heat required for straightening, or the heat required for the annealing recommended by Gerald, will damage the bushings?  Or is the recommendation to remove the bushings first, and do all this work with that end of the A-frame loose?

Lastly, I still need recommendations for shops to actually do this.  Otherwise it is all quite theoretical  Smiley

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Logged

Full-timing in a 1985 Neoplan Spaceliner since 2004.
Our blog: http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
NJT 5573
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 808




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2009, 03:57:17 PM »

Sean,

The difference between home and on the road to me is I own a staffed private Truck Repair Shop that supports my Trucking Business and various mechanical hobbies. I am also a fair mechanic, both auto, from Nascar experience, (Fabrication etc). and commercial from owning and repairing as well as building/rebuilding Trucks and repairing buses for about 40 years.

Perhaps sometimes I forget that not everyone has a Jack, Portapower, Torch, Welder, Steel and wood blocks and the knowledge to use them in their cargo bay or available at the closest rental shop.

To you I can see it looks like a monumental problem, to me it just looks like a bent piece of mild steel! I really would have no problem measuring the "replacement" A frame length, cutting out the 6 inch section that is bent, pulling or pushing the length right and welding in a insert on the road to get me home. I would use string and a tape measure, much like we do after an accident at the race track to get the alignment close enough to not have a tire wear issue. If I were to straighten it, I would fab a 3 sided shoe to fit over the bend, heat it, lay the shoe over it and push or pull it straight. I could probably do either, including jacking my bus up in no more than an hour and a half. I would likely still replace the A frame in my shop though at my convience.

I have DDEC 2 and ATEC. When my windows were skinned all we did was throw the master switch off and weld in the cross bars. Nothing burned up but I respect your concern.

Most tire wear problems are related to toe in that usually is easily adjusted, and cheap tires or a combination of both, once a radial tire sets a wear pattern it will continue that pattern until its used up regardless if you make alignment adjustments.

If you have a wrist pin, (piston), type fit to deal with, a freezer for the pin and a torch for the housing are normally what it takes to get the two togather.(Its going to be heated anyway). Probably no exotic materials involved, just common sense and intermediate mechanical skills. Hopefully the hole in your replacement A frame is good.
Logged

"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
Hobie
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 228




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2009, 04:09:56 PM »

All good advise guys. 

I wouldn't be concerned if the shop welds a small tab directly on the dent area to attach a pull point.  Then cuts it off later and may fab an overlay as has been suggested. 

Regarding  the heat and rubber.  The heat will be quite localized and should not be a problem.  They will probably wrap the rubber with wet rags or if it is closer, a bag of ice. 

Logged
John316
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3224

MCI 1995 DL3, DD S60, Allison B500.




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2009, 04:36:53 PM »

Sean,

I am with you on disconnecting you computers, and ECM. Those are very expensive pieces of equipment. It would take a lot of hassle for me not to disconnect them. I would sure hate to lose one of them to not disconnecting them. Not to mention disconnection the batteries and the equalizer.

God bless,

John
Logged

MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
Sojourner
Jesus Love You!
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 894


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2009, 07:20:19 PM »

As usual Gerald has nailed the simple cost effective solution.  The only thing I would add to his instructions - and its something that a good weld shop should know anyway - is to NOT weld at right angles to the box section frame member.  IOW, the ends of the fillet plates that Gerald referred to should be pointed with stitch welds to hold them to the surface of the frame but under no circumstances should they be cut off square and welded across the frame member.  You can weld lengthwise on that frame to your heart's content but don't weld across it unless you want it to crack.

Amen.

Stitch weld is better yet if you don’t want to anneal it. As per Bob said any good welder will tack it in place and several place around to maintain it alignment before stitch welds.

About heating with rubber bushing on ends…no need to be concern if welder wrap a water soak rag around the “A” frame ends. And no need to anneal it if you have it stitch weld.

When you talk to any welder, always ask him how he going to about it and tell him all the concern question BEFORE you decide who.

Cautions…do not weld on any metal at the bottom of concave area for pulling or you will have big problem due the interfering of the outward or expanding movement. Pull or push at the top of the bend. I suggest pull using beam (frame and alignment shop have them on hand) and port-a-power (hydraulic).

About ECM equips bus…all of what Sean said it well (as always) for current feed is one thing of the two. The other thing is EMF Electromagnetic field…when welding near ECM’s cable or harness which are unshielded from the factory unless it change now. Any magnetic field from the arcing will cause the ECM’s program into crash format unless that nearby cable is disconnecting from ECM unit. In this case it too far from the ECM harness.

Where I retired from GM Tech, they have special Electromagnetic compatibility lab room with double steel jack and special copper loom seal around huge door to seal.
We can kill any ECM car inside the room. In other words, our enemy can shut down our transportation system via a push button. Yes it very serous indeed. This been build and working since 1978.

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

BTW...remember Cody's wife in prayer
Logged

http://dalesdesigns.net/names.htm
Ps 28 Blessed be the LORD, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6785





Ignore
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2009, 06:40:12 AM »

It's pretty simple to me-Sean has a take off replacement A-arm.  Replace the arm and be done with it- no welding, no bending, no risking fire, no risking burning up the bushings, no risk of electrical damage, no risk at wondering what and where the old arm needs to be reinforced- need I say more?  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Sean
Geek.
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2553


'85 Neoplan Spaceliner "Odyssey"


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2009, 12:39:52 PM »

OK, here's the update.

Between this board and the other one, I received only six specific recommendations for shops.  Three of those were off our route far enough that I did not call them (Orlando, Atlanta which we had already left behind, and Birmingham which we bypassed to be in Montgomery).

I got two different recommendations for Odessa Spring, Brake, and Axle, although both of them provided, apparently, the fax number.  The phone turns out to be 432-337-7301.  I spoke with JC there, and, after describing the problem, he thought he could not bend it, it would have to be replaced.  However, when I described the procedure involved in removing and replacing the wrist pin, he said he was not familiar with it and they had never done one.

Someone recommended Tejas Coach, but I can't reach them on the provided number, which is also what is posted on their web site.  It always comes back busy.

I also received a recommendation for E&C Spring, near San Diego.  He was familiar with the procedure, says he's done many similar installations, and generally sounded very knowledgeable.  So my final option is to go there.  However, I'm a good 2,000 miles from San Diego, and my first opportunity to get it to him will be the first week in March.  I was hoping to get this taken care of sooner and closer, such as in the next week between here (Demopolis, Alabama) and Arizona.

So I still welcome specific shop recommendations between here and there.

Thanks, everyone.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Logged

Full-timing in a 1985 Neoplan Spaceliner since 2004.
Our blog: http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
skipn
Guest

« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2009, 01:01:30 PM »


You might give a call to
Custom Coach Conversions USA Inc
(601) 502-0656
 Jackson Miss. on interstate 20

 See if they know of someone who can do a good job

 Just a thought

 Skip
Logged
Dreamscape
Dreamscape
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3296


1968 Silver Eagle Model 01 8V71 Allison 740 #7443


WWW
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2009, 01:09:29 PM »

Sean,

This is not on your topic. We live in Abilene TX. on I-20. If you have a chance to stop by give a holler. I don't know where you are right now, would  be great to meet you.

My phone is three two five 660 4635.

Hope you are able to find a place to do the work right!

Paul
Logged

Becky and Paul Lawry, On The Road
Travel Blog - http://dreamscapetravels.wordpress.com/
Bus Blog - http://dreamscapesilvereagle.wordpress.com/
______________________________________________________

Our coach was originally owned by the Dixie Echoes.
bigjohnkub
pd4903-188 and now pd4107
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 246




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2009, 01:32:55 PM »

Like Paul, I can't give you any help with a shop. I'm 5 miles off I20, between Tyler and Longview texas. Stop by or call If i can help. (Or just layover). nine o three,530 fortyfour,ninety seven.
   Big John and Blu
Logged

Big John  Tyler Tx PD 4903-188 & 4107
871 dd, 4 spd Fuller.
LOVE MY BUS!!!!
9035304497
Lee Bradley
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 706




Ignore
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2009, 01:38:19 PM »

Sean,
A good alignment shop should be able to align that side so it doesn't wear the tire.  Make sure the shop knows that you have a double a-arm suspension system with four adjusting points. The bend in the lower a-arm will require that the rear lower be adjusted out to correct the camber. This will increase the castor setting which can be corrected by adjusting the front of the upper a-arm in and the rear of the upper a-arm out. Now adjust the toe-in. Insure that the bus is at normal ride height when checking the readings. The bent a-arm will cause the alignment to change more than it did throughout up and down movement but this should not be a problem as you have a fixed ride height.

The new Neoplans still use the same suspension but instead of having the tie rods connected to a fixed point they are connected to a computer controlled hydraulic cylinder to provide active tag axle steering.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!