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Author Topic: swapping a 84 6v92 with an Allison 654 to a cummings L10,M11,ISL,ISM A 4060  (Read 10479 times)
JohnEd
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 11:16:25 PM »

Tom,

Will the ISL get better MPG than the M11 or ISM?  What do think a MCI9 would get with a 5 speed auto and the ISL?  Smaller and lighter is a major plus for anyone.

John
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buswarrior
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2009, 08:03:06 AM »

Before we go off half cocked...

How are the Cummins for being able to uprate the power, if the example available is a lesser powered one?

Contrary to popular belief, you can't just uprate a DDEC, you have to have the "right" computer for the hot rod power level, which are rare.

I'm wondering if the same conditions and reasons apply to the Cummins family as well?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
TomC
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2009, 08:29:43 AM »

Granted some of the early Cummins ISX's were dogs, in that they had a tendency towards blowing up early in the game-so much so, our used truck manager will not take an early ISX equipped truck in trade.  Cummins has worked out the bugs in it and is going to be their main heavy duty engine for big rigs since the ISM is going to be canceled at the end of the year.

As to fuel mileage- If you have three engines, the 15 liter ISX, the 11 liter ISM, the 9 liter ISL all putting out 425hp at 1250lb/ft torque, the smallest engine, the ISL will get the best fuel mileage since the internal friction will be the least (the bigger the engine the more friction and parasitic power loses it has).  For our use, I just think the ISL is a great engine.  Even at the 425hp rating, it should get around 300,000 miles of life before overhaul.  How many of us are going to drive that far?  That's why we don't need a big behemoth like the Cummins ISX, Caterpillar C15, or the Detroit Series 60 engines that will last 1 million miles to power our conversions.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
VanTare
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 09:31:40 AM »

Tomc Cummins still has a lot of work to do the ISX it is still a dog and truckers are not going to have a great deal to chose from with M/B not letting any one have 60s and Cat leaving and Volvo with their gutless wonder. I am glad you made the point on the life of on some Cummins engines I have never had a ISM that lasted over 400,000 miles working every day pulling 80,000 lbs and the higher the HP the shorter the life span it should go away.The I series cost Cummmins over 4% of the cost of the engines for warranty work has for over 10 years

David   
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TomC
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 04:31:45 PM »

In 2010, the Cummins ISX is going to have common rail fuel injection-that goes along way to controlling the fuel more accurately, hence better engine life.  Also added will be Urea injection (like everyone else, except for the MAN engines installed in International trucks-they are using enhanced EGR-can only imagine the heat rejection and worse fuel mileage).  Since Cummins has proven the common rail fuel injection system in their ISB, ISC, ISL engines, I anticipate good things also from the ISX.  And since the highest horsepower will be 525hp at 1850 (no more 600hp at 2050), this too should go along way toward better longevity of the engine.
Course, I'm waiting for the DD16 to come out.  The should be in the 600hp range with around 2000lb/ft of torque-a real hill flatening engine.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
hturner12
Hugh Turner
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2009, 12:16:33 AM »

Hugh, Does your Bluebird have enough length to fit in a inline 6?  Tom Y 

Tom
sorry for the late response bought the computer and LCD that is going in the bird. I am using it  and have not setup the network. Every thing is on the other computer. As far as the length that is why I am trying to get all the info I can to see if it is a doable repower. 
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1984 Bluebird Wanderlodge
PT 40  pusher with tag axle (40')
6VTA 330 hp
Allison 654 5 speed
hturner12
Hugh Turner
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2009, 09:44:12 PM »

Cummins ISL with common rail fuel injection (very quiet and fuel efficient).  It will be about 500lb lighter then the 6V-92TA and cheaper to work on.  The main advantage is that the ISL is to be made well into the future.  If in the future the govnt decides to have us upgrade our old style engines to new, the ISL will be able to comply.  Another advantage to the Cummins ISL, is that you can use the Allison 3000MH instead of the bigger 4000 series.  The disadvantage is that your 3.55 rear end is too high ratio wise to take advantage of the six speeds.  The Cummins ISL should be geared to run at 1800rpm at cruise speed.  So guessing that you have 11R-22.5's on the bird that turn 500rpm, in 6th gear (.65) to get 1800rpm at 75mph you rear end ratio should be in the 4.44 range.  With your present 3.55, your 75 mph engine rpm in 4th gear direct would be 2218, in 5th gear (.75) would be 1664rpm (a bit low), and in 6th gear 1441-of which it wouldn't even shift into.  You could use it as a 5 speed though.  The nice thing about the Cummins ISL 8.9 liter is that is has 4 valves per cylinder, replaceable wet cylinder liners, and can be equipped with a real Jake Brake.  This will be my choice of engines in the future when my Cat 3406B will no longer be accepted in my truck conversion.  Good Luck, TomC
[/quote]

Tom
I was at the Cummins site and found a calculator that gives you what gear recommendations are based on weight, tire rpm, top transmission gear,desired speed, type of gearing (performance,economy, or balanced), on\off road %, rearend ratio you are thinking about. the program will tell you if the gear ratio will work or not. When I put the Allison info in the range ratio was 4.78-4.99. Did the same for the Ultrashift 10 With a .74 final the ratio range was ratio 4.13-431. Either way I go I am going to have to swap the gear. In doing some searches looks like the Allison is readily available and  the ultrashift seem to be hard to find. I really do not want to add a clutch pedal (I think pia**). Next I have to find out the availability of the differant gear sets. Do you have any suggestions? We do have a couple of heavy truck salavage yard here.
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1984 Bluebird Wanderlodge
PT 40  pusher with tag axle (40')
6VTA 330 hp
Allison 654 5 speed
TomC
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2009, 08:46:38 AM »

The gearing for maximum fuel mileage we use at Freightliner is, on the big blocks (ISX, S60, DD15, C12-15) you want 1500 at 75mph.  On smaller engines like the ISM, more like 1600 at 75.  With the Cummins ISL- 1800 at 75.  The Ultra shift 10 has a .74 overdrive, the Ultrashift 13 has a .73 overdrive, the Allison 4000 series has a .74 and .64 overdrive, the Allison 3000 series (which can be used on engines up to 1250lb/ft torque) is .75 and .65.  Based on 495rpmile tires (typical 11R-22.5) for 75mph cruise at 1600 rpm you'd want 3.55 with the Ultrashift and around 4.11 for Allison. 

Which engine are you going to use, then we can really zero in on the tuning.   Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
hturner12
Hugh Turner
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2009, 11:07:40 AM »

Tom C
I am going to go with the ISL.  I want to thank you for help .Working at Freightliner you see all different  engine/transmission setups. My repower maybe in 3 months or a year (hopefully not). There are certain thing that have to fall in place. I am getting all of the info I can, so that I will have every thing covered. A lot of what you have mentioned I had not taken into account. The bird has a side mount radiator will this be a problem with ISL? What horsepower should I be looking for I have 330hp in it right now?  Which Allison 3000 series were you looking at?  When I plug all of the required numbers  on to the Cummins Power spec Here are numbers: max speed65; Trans .65;Tire 500;fuel balanced;4.78 gear. Here are the output @55 1410 rpm; @65 1666. At 75 same for 55  AT 75/1922 at 65/1666.  Would the 3000 series trans work on the bird weighing  in at 42k?  I have been out of the field for about 10 years. Due to medical problems I have lost or forget a bunch.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 12:33:55 PM by hturner12 » Logged

1984 Bluebird Wanderlodge
PT 40  pusher with tag axle (40')
6VTA 330 hp
Allison 654 5 speed
TomC
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2009, 11:23:00 AM »

Swapping from the 6V-92TA to the Cummins ISL 425hp at 1250 torque, your radiator will most likely be sufficient to cool the Cummins, but you will have to add the air to air intercooler in front of the radiator (I assume your radiator has a hydraulically powered fan?).  The Cummins ISL 425hp is an RV setting and the Allison transmission you want to use is the 3000MH.  Specify the Jake brake on the ISL also.  With 495rpm tires and figuring you want a fast cruise of 1800rpm at 75 mph, that (with the .65 overdrive in 6th) will put your rear end ratio at 4.44.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
hturner12
Hugh Turner
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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2009, 12:39:01 PM »

Tom

You have provided me with more info then the "tech support for Cummins and Allison
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1984 Bluebird Wanderlodge
PT 40  pusher with tag axle (40')
6VTA 330 hp
Allison 654 5 speed
hturner12
Hugh Turner
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2009, 12:40:48 PM »

Yes pics will be taken and posted
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1984 Bluebird Wanderlodge
PT 40  pusher with tag axle (40')
6VTA 330 hp
Allison 654 5 speed
hturner12
Hugh Turner
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2009, 10:25:02 AM »

Yes the Series 60 is a wonderful engine, but it is absolutely HUGE in size.  If you could see the Series 60 next to the Cummins L10/M11/ISM, you could see the difference in installation ease.  And the ISM can be built up to a 500hp with 1550lb/ft torque-close enough to the Detroits maximum of 515hp and 1650lb/ft torque.  Then if you put the Cummins ISL next to the other two-it is even smaller in size, yet puts out 425hp and 1250lb/ft torque in RV setting-and is 1,000lb lighter then the Series 60!  Good Luck, TomC

Just talked to Cummins recon department at Cummins south. I asked how can the horsepower be increased I was " my the Recon man that it is done thru the computer if a service option is in the computer, on a ISL 270 hp could go up to 310hp
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1984 Bluebird Wanderlodge
PT 40  pusher with tag axle (40')
6VTA 330 hp
Allison 654 5 speed
luvrbus
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2009, 11:02:04 AM »

My son in laws Alegro came with a 400 hp ISL the rating was 400 hp and 1200 ft lbs at 2200 rpm and he got terrible fuel mileage around 5 on the average.He has had it reset to 350 hp with 1250 ft lbs of torque @ 1400 rpm and is averaging around 8 mph.,1/2 to 1 mile per gallon more than my 8v92 with me pushing 13,000 lbs more weight than him      good luck on this one
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 11:04:37 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Tom Y
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2009, 01:13:46 PM »

Hugh, If you find a ISL you should get the CPL # ( Critical parts list ) and have your dealer check it. On my L10 to go to 330 hp I had to change the exhaust side turbo housing. No big deal, but it could have been more. To get 350 hp I would have needed new exhaust valves. I would think it is the same with the ISL but I may be wrong.  Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
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