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Author Topic: Update from Doug with the PD4106  (Read 39589 times)
zubzub
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'53 4104. Roadworthy but rough around the edges.


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« Reply #180 on: February 13, 2009, 07:22:08 AM »

Hey Doug, I got Zimtok to send me a pdf of the 6-71 series engine....not your engine but close and it will help get you more familiar with the cooling system/hub thing...http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=11020.0   there is a link in his reply.
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« Reply #181 on: February 13, 2009, 08:03:47 AM »

Hey Doug, I got Zimtok to send me a pdf of the 6-71 series engine....not your engine but close and it will help get you more familiar with the cooling system/hub thing...http://http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=11020.0   there is a link in his reply.


Excellent.  Thank you sir!
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« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2009, 07:14:10 AM »

Well, the oil sample results are finally in.  It aint good news folks.  See attachment.  In a nutshell there is glycol in the oil and the iron is very high, indicating the oil was last change around the jurassic period.  I suppose that is sort of good news at least it shows me no malicious intent to hide something by changing the oil just before I picked it up, although it confirms that this bus was maintained with little to no care.

Doug
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Old4103
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« Reply #183 on: February 16, 2009, 09:04:31 AM »

g'morning Doug....

I've taken the liberty of changing the OA from a PDF to a JPG so it's easier for others to see.

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BigDougInOregon
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« Reply #184 on: February 16, 2009, 09:33:57 AM »

g'morning Doug....

I've taken the liberty of changing the OA from a PDF to a JPG so it's easier for others to see.



Mornin' Dallas.  Thank you sir.
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

Hoping for the open road someday in our PD4106-1035!

Check out our family blog:  www.TheFergyFarm.com
Old4103
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« Reply #185 on: February 16, 2009, 09:34:24 AM »

OK, That's done.

The oil analysis is subject to interpretation, and since the oil wasn't warm or freshly churned up when the sample was taken, and there is no baseline history of the oil analysis, there is some room for leeway......

However....

With a viscosity of 13, I've got a feeling that the engine was overheated many times, or the oil that was used was whatever junk the PO could find at the Dollar Store for 59/quart.

The Iron levels are within acceptable tolerances, however, I would be concerned about piston scuffing with the use of the wrong oil. Iron could also be caused by rust in the cooling system from running too low a level of antifreeze.

Copper Content is a bit high in my opinion, considering the condition of the rest of the engine, meaning bearings or injector tubes are worn or leaking. This could also indicate the radiator is flaking from the inside, (unlikely).

Chromium is acceptable, at least within the parameters of how the sample was obtained, but I would only expect worn rings, not broken ones.

Now the biggie.... Coolant in the oil.

We've all pretty much guessed that the O-rings in the head are shot, but with the other readings, it looks like it's entirely possible that the engine has one or two cracked heads. Owwwie! That's gonna hurt. there could also be a leaking oil cooler in the mix, but not likely.

Now... Bottom line...

It looks like the engine could benefit from a minor overhaul and general freshening up, along with putting the original fan back together so that it cools correctly.

I have one head gasket set, need another at the very least.
I have a blower seal kit to replace the bad ones in your blower, (Another Problem not related to the overheat).
I have an extra oil cooler element and housing that is in good shape.
I also have lots and lots of other gaskets to stop some of the leaks that DD's are famous for, along with other misc. spare parts.

What may be the show stopper is the need for a pair of heads, I don't have any.
I would also look into a set of rod and main bearings... I have a couple of sets, but don't know if they are the right over/undersize for your engine.

So far, we've had 2 donations to the Get Doug and Family back on the Road Fund, one for $50 and an other for $100. The one for $100 was withdrawn with no explanation.

If I bring the bus down here, it's going to be a long slow trip, to try to keep from doing any more damage than has already been done.



Let me know what you would like to do.

Quote
Indicator     Acceptable Levels     Engine Problem     What to Check
Silicon (Si) and
Aluminum (Al)    10 to 30 ppm    Dirt ingestion    Air intake system, oil filter plugging, oil filler cap and breather, valve covers, oil supply
Iron (Fe)    100 to 200 ppm    Wear of cylinder liner, valve and gear train, oil pump, rust in system    Excessive oil consumption, abnormal engine noise,performance problems, oil pressure, abnormal operating temperatures, stuck/broken piston rings
Chromium (CR)    10 to 30 ppm    Piston ring wear    Excessive oil blow-by and oil consumption, oil degradation
Copper (CU)    10 to 50 ppm    Bearings and bushings wear, oil cooler passivating,radiator corrosion    Coolant in engine oil, abnormal noise when operating at near stall speed
Lead (Pb)*    40 to 100 ppm    Bearing corrosion    Extended oil change intervals
Copper (CU) and
Lead (Pb)*    10 to 50 ppm    Bearing lining wear    Oil pressure, abnormal engine noise, dirt being ingested in air intake, fuel dilution, extended oil drain intervals
Aluminum (Al)    10 to 30 ppm    Piston and piston thrust bearing wear    Blow-by gases, oil consumption, power loss, abnormal engine noise
Silver and
Tin    2 to 5 ppm
10 to 30 ppm    Wear of bearings    Excessive oil consumption, abnormal engine noise, loss in oil pressure
Viscosity Change    
   Lack of lubrication    Fuel dilution, blow-by gases, oil oxidation, carburetor choke, ignition timing, injectors, injector pump, oil pressure
Water/Anti-freeze    
   Coolant leak or condensation    Coolant supply, gasket sealed, hose connection, oil filler cap and breather



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Sojourner
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« Reply #186 on: February 16, 2009, 09:40:07 AM »

Oil Analysis: Five Things You Didn't Know

Interpreting an Oil Analysis Report

Spectrophotometry for the Analysis of Wear Metals in Oil Samples

Sample of an ANALYTICAL RESULTS

Allison Transmission Oil Test

Sample of a report

PPM

Performance Testing Program (PTP)

Bob Is The Oil Guy

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« Reply #187 on: February 16, 2009, 10:24:47 AM »


   Doug,


   Looking over you analysis, the ware factor was based on a GASOLINE ENGINE  not a diesel.  I assume that is not the case.

   If you look closely it states Gasoline!  However coolant is detectable as you can see.  Also the presence of Iron is borderline

   This may not be the case because sometimes the reading of high Iron will show because the presence of Glycol.


    Steve 5B........
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« Reply #188 on: February 16, 2009, 11:42:17 AM »

Sent you a PM Dallas.  I want to say thank you to everyone for sticking with this thread and offering so much help and encouragement.  It is appreciated more than you know.

God Bless,

Doug
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« Reply #189 on: February 16, 2009, 07:15:28 PM »

Well that sux big time Doug.  The circumstances of the test dictated that the results would mean nothing more nor less than that there was or wasn't coolant in the sump.  Now you know there is. So something fairly major is wrong upstairs.  From here on is my opinion and as you well know opinions and assholes are something we all have so evaluate it on that basis.

Unless you are prepared to fix that engine "right" you are better finding a good takeout that you can afford and swapping it out.  As my recent experience should demonstrate, fixing it right could cost something north of $12k.  Its time for some serious soul searching but don't get dragged deeper and deeper into a project that you ultimately can't afford.
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« Reply #190 on: February 16, 2009, 08:12:45 PM »

Well I'm afraid that Bob is correct in the previous post. The test apparantly showed that she has some coolant in the oil and that will probably lead to a whole new can of worms once someone opens it up.  Disappointing news indeed. If the bus was sitting in your driveway and you were as mechanically inclined as some on this board it would be an easier decision. With the bus sitting halfway across the country it makes for a hard decision to throw more good money after bad. Later
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« Reply #191 on: February 16, 2009, 08:22:28 PM »

About takeout engine...the charter bus owner who I brought my bus from...told me that they always get salvage bus with good engine brought in to remove before the salvage company scrap it for cost of scrap price. It got their fleet running again. I am would think that average charter companies do this often. BTW...while it was removing engine from scrap bus...They told me get whatever I can use. Such as dual brake control and electric water pump.

These DD will many more mile than we ever do in our life time if was taken care of properly.

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Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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« Reply #192 on: February 16, 2009, 09:30:04 PM »

Its time for some serious soul searching but don't get dragged deeper and deeper into a project that you ultimately can't afford.


Yep, you're right.  Like I told Dallas, I should have researched owning a bus more before I sunk all this money into it.  Live and learn.  Nothing I can do now but keep it in storage.  Thanks for the reminder about how expensive this little hobby of ours can be.
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BigDougInOregon
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« Reply #193 on: February 16, 2009, 09:31:00 PM »

About takeout engine...the charter bus owner who I brought my bus from...told me that they always get salvage bus with good engine brought in to remove before the salvage company scrap it for cost of scrap price. It got their fleet running again. I am would think that average charter companies do this often. BTW...while it was removing engine from scrap bus...They told me get whatever I can use. Such as dual brake control and electric water pump.

These DD will many more mile than we ever do in our life time if was taken care of properly.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

Thanks Gerald.  I'll keep that in mind when the time comes to try to fix her.
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« Reply #194 on: February 16, 2009, 09:33:20 PM »

Well I'm afraid that Bob is correct in the previous post. The test apparantly showed that she has some coolant in the oil and that will probably lead to a whole new can of worms once someone opens it up.  Disappointing news indeed. If the bus was sitting in your driveway and you were as mechanically inclined as some on this board it would be an easier decision. With the bus sitting halfway across the country it makes for a hard decision to throw more good money after bad. Later

Indeed.  Nothing I can do about it but keep it in storage and maybe some day get back to trying to get it fixed.  Certainly not going to give it away and lose everything.  I'll just save up and get it fixed when I can.
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

Hoping for the open road someday in our PD4106-1035!

Check out our family blog:  www.TheFergyFarm.com
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