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Author Topic: How much steering input is normal?  (Read 4081 times)
belfert
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« on: February 02, 2009, 08:13:29 PM »

It seems like my bus requires too much steering input going down the road.  How much is normal?  I don't have much play in the wheel.

I have to constantly be steering back and forth just to stay straight going down the road.  My car if I hold the steering wheel in one place on a straight road will go straight basically forever.  If I held the bus steering wheel in one spot like that I would either be in the median or the ditch before too long.  The constant steering input gets tiring after a while.

I've had the steering checked by at least three different shops who say everything is good.  BK did replace one control arm bearing, but that didn't change anything.  Am I expecting too much for a bus to steer good?  I have never driven any other bus except mine.  My next step is to have the steering gear pulled and rebuilt.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 08:23:04 PM »

Lucas makes a product for power steering that solved 90% of mine. I think its made for worn steering boxes. My tow in is straight up and I may try 1/8 inch in to see if I can get it to steer as good as the manual that was in my 05. Check the tow on the tags to because rear steer will make you chase it around.
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2009, 09:35:21 PM »

I had a similar problem that turned out to be the steering column itself.  Something in the column was binding a bit, so that the wheel would not self center.  This meant that I had to be constantly compensating to center the steering wheel.  When you make a turn and release the wheel does it return to center, or do you have to bring it back manually?
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 11:36:58 PM »

If you have air assist steering, it's just the nature of the beast.  But if you have full hydraulic steering in an integral steering box, it is too loose.  Something needs to be tightened up.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 01:00:09 AM »

I bought my bus from a coach operator, and one of his guys gave me a few minutes of driver training when he delivered it to me. I very quickly commented on how much 'steering' I was having to do, even when going straight - he said something like "Don't worry, that's normal - eventually you will stop expecting it to behave like a car, and will settle down and find yourself steering much less.". And this is exactly what I found happened - at first you are hyper-sensitive and trying too hard, which results in you 'over driving' the bus with constant steering inputs. Later you find you have relaxed and letting the bus do the work without panicing every time it seems to be changing the direction slightly. It's perhaps the difference between 'guiding' the bus rather than 'driving' it.

Jeremy
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 03:24:04 AM »

Hey Brian, in addition to what the others have suggested, try what they call "bump" steering. I really can't think of a single coach where i work that doesn't wander to some degree as you describe.

For every given highway/coach combination there will be a tendency to drift to one side or the other, usually the right due to the crown of the road. As the coach drifts to the right,(or maybe the left), just "bump" the steering gear with enough input to bring it back left to your desired position in your lane. Try to avoid giving so much input that you now have to steer back to the right again. You should not have to be steering right-left-right-left-right-left. It should be left-left-left-left.This sounded weird to me when i was told how to do this, but it does work. After some practice, you will sit there with a nice light touch on the wheel, and just keep bumping the wheel to the left and the bus will keep nice and straight. It also helps to focus way down the road.

Give it a try, nothing to lose and hope it helps.
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 05:58:17 AM »

As was already mentioned, try to focus on the road about 1/8 mile infront of you instead of immediately in front of your coach. I found this helps alot and , at least for mew, helps prevent "chasing" the steering.  This also helps with awareness of what is happening down the road in front of you (if you see brake lights come on, you can lift off the throttle and start slowing slightly before reaching the "braking point"). Jack
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 06:26:14 AM »

I believe the steering returns to center like it should, but it has been a while since I have driven the bus.

The steering issues certainly aren't the end of the world, but I think it would be easier to drive with less steering input required.  Most of my trips are out west on I80 with little traffic so looking out far ahead is pretty natural.  After driving for a little while you get used to the steering and it is just a natural part of driving the bus.  I'll probably get the steering gear rebuilt and then not worry about it if the steering doesn't get any better.
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 06:31:35 AM »

Driving I-80, part of the problem might be cross winds (at least, part of the time).  Jack
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 08:09:52 AM »

When i brought my bus home i found that i was constantly steering for the first 100 miles....ie, tight grip on the wheel.  I loosened up my touch and by the end of the 1100 mile trip i did not even hardly notice the steering as being a problem. Grin
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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 08:14:29 AM »

First of all, make sure the toe in is set to about 2/32 to 1/8. Most truck alignment shops will set it up to neutral which will make the front tires last a long time, but it also makes the coach "hunt".

Second, if it's hydraulic steering, you can have the worm screw adjusted either too tight OR too loose, and to a newbie it acts the same. However there is a subtle difference. If the box is too loose, you will find that you move the steering wheel an amount before anything actually moves on the coach. If it's too tight, the coach will turn immediately, but you have to actually move the steering wheel back to center. It will not return on it's own.

I am assuming that there is no play in the tie rod ends or other front suspension components.

I agree with other posters, more miles and relaxing your hands helps a lot.
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2009, 09:27:33 AM »

I seem to recall the tie rod ends were replaced by C&J Bus Repair when I first got the bus.  Everything has been checked by multiple shops and they all say everything on the steering is good.  I would be happy to have any worn parts replaced, but nothing seems to be worn out.  Precison Frame and Alignment seems to be nationally known for sterring issues with RVs and coaches, but they give it a clean bill of health.

The bus has been driven some 14,000 miles since I have owned it and I'm pretty well used to the steering by now, but it is still annoying.

I haven't adjusted anything on the steering box since no shop has recommended this.  Precision frame said the center part of the gear may simply be worn since that parts gets most of the use.  Remeber, my bus is a 1995 and it appears from the DDEC to have less than 400,000 miles.
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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 10:24:35 AM »

Look further down the road. When ever I find I'm having to make lots of corrections, it is because I'm looking too close to the front of the bus. I look further away & the steering problem minimizes it self.

I've also noticed that as I get tired, I tend to look closer to the front of the bus & it takes longer to correct the lane drift . . . .
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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 10:53:53 AM »

That is exhausting. Before I installed the integral steering on my mc5 It would take 3 guys running shifts for 48 hours to get to Texas and We would all be completely destroyed, unable to function for 2 days. After the installation, 2 guys can run the same 48 hours completely rested and ready for the holiday... I dont know what you are running now but get it sorted out! 
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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 11:05:43 AM »

good point about the tags at the top of this thread.
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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2009, 11:31:32 AM »

We had the same problem with our power assist and were told "that's the way they are" by shops and others. I drove most of last summer wondering when we would finally leave the road. I assumed the shops that had looked at it had checked the play in the steering gear, they had not! I was able to get a full turn out of the adjusting screw before it made contact inside the box. The pitman shaft was going up and down before it would turn. Now it is very enjoyable to drive with very minor input to correct mostly for wind. The down side... I have to fight my wife for the left seat.

Bob
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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2009, 02:24:30 PM »

Brian,

 No Joke about the additive, it comes in a small bottle and I didn't use 1/4 of it and had immediate improvement. Think it was red in color, its been a couple of years or longer, but the steering gear really liked it.
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 02:49:38 PM »

Yup, check the REAR of the coach.

A bad radius rod back there, tag bushing/alignment, and it will steer the coach for you.

plus all the other good stuff mentioned.

Hard to find a good bus alignment guy who knows where to check BOTH ends.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 03:26:48 PM »

My MC-5A handles about like the 50 or 60 different school buses I've driven and they all take effort and attention to the road. Some where twenty years old and some where new and all about the same. You might find you are chasing it a little. Get a professional bus driver to give it a spin and see what he or she says.
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« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2009, 04:19:42 PM »

alot of steering input is a sign of something wrong, unless you have an air assit type unit or some other not completley engineered system.

there are alot of people in the truck/car world that will tell you that play/input is normal......it generally is not....it is just they are used to driving something that has a problem, and have come to accept it as normal.

I might suspect your Torsilastics maybe ( Dina's have those correct?)  As I understand from lurking about in Eagle and Flxible forums they are the casue of alot of problems when not tunned correctly.  It also seems that properly setting them is becoming a lost art...even with some newer buses having them.

Check your ride ht against the specs as well as whatever your maint manual gives you for tors. specs.


Oh tire pressure might also be a culprit.

high PSi will give you better MPG but also effcts handling and tire wear...something Obama doesn't tell you
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 08:05:24 AM »

oh yes, I forgot, ride height is something you can check at home for free.

No matter air suspension or Torsilastic, if the suspension is not riding at the correct height, it can affect your trajectory down the road.

Specs should be in the manual, this requires careful measuring, and the coach parked on a big level surface. 1/4 inch differences matter, so you need to create the conditions for precise measurements.

happy coaching!
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 08:25:38 AM »

Just a note, if you do adjust the screw on the steering box be carefull you don't over tighten it. The steering can lock up if it is over tightened. Once you adjust it turn the wheels all the way back and forth a couple of times to be sure it feels smooth and works correctly.
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2009, 09:27:05 AM »

Busshawg,

Good point, it took me several tries before I felt I had it right.
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 01:51:56 PM »

If your rear tags are air operated, It could be a low pressure problem that can be
corrected by adjusting the tag air pressure. ( downforce 6,000 lbs or higher. )

MC9's are notorius for wandering if the tag air pressure is too low. or sometimes
too high. Mine was until I found the regulator adjuster was loose. It solved a brake problem with tags locking up and solved all drift and wandering for me.

Oh. Well . Just a thought.

Dave....
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2009, 02:09:50 PM »

excellent info Dr. Dave, where do I find my regulator adjustment for the tags? and how do I know how much downward  pressure I have, simply by scaling them?

Grant
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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 02:38:33 PM »

Brian,

I couldn't tell for sure what type of steering you have by reading all the posts.

If it is air or hyd boost it is actually manual steering when driving straight. It is only power when you turn, this is much different than integral power steering.

As I think has been posted, manual steering play is adjusted at the steering box at the axle. Be sure these adjustments are done in very small amounts to avoid binding the steering.

I had the same problem when I first got my 4104 but was able to take out all but about 1" of play at the steering wheel rim. It sure makes a difference on long trips!!
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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2009, 03:04:14 PM »

I was told that there will be 15 degrees of play with power assist.  Does that figure sound right?  The figure in inches will be different depending on the width of the wheel.
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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2009, 03:27:14 PM »

I couldn't tell you what type of steering I have other than it is power steering.  It is a 1995 so the steering system is likely to be as modern as anything.  I don't think steering has changed much since 1995.

My tags are air bag instead of torsilastics like the steer and drive axles.  They are supposed to run at 43 PSI and that is what the gauge on the regulator reads.

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« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2009, 08:14:55 PM »

Lin,

I've never measured but my guess is that 15* is well over an inch at the wheel rim. Anything over an inch with power boost will drive you crazy on long straight roads.

It obviously varies with the wheel diameter but, in the 4104, manual and power boost wheel diameters are the same as far as I know. If the power boost fails you don't know it until you try to turn at low speed.

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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2009, 05:30:39 AM »

Brian,

Once spring arrives here in Minnesnowta. I'll come over and you can drive my bus, I had a 4905 with the Ross integral in my last bus and it was shot and if there was any sidewind at all it was a constant back and forth fight.

My MCI drives better than my tow car does. It would be interesting to see you compare the two.

I think with 14k miles under your belt you probably aren't "oversteering" it but who knows?

If I could get a reasonable throttle that I don't have to push through the floor my bus would be a dream drive.

Have you tslked to ABC in Faribault or Jefferson Lines here in the cities about your issues? Seems that the leasing and touring company mechanics would have alot of experience dealing with steering issues.

Hope you find the solution....

Spring is a coming,

Rick



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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2009, 06:13:04 AM »

Have you tslked to ABC in Faribault or Jefferson Lines here in the cities about your issues? Seems that the leasing and touring company mechanics would have alot of experience dealing with steering issues.

I haven't been to ABC or Jefferson, but I have been to C&J Bus Repair, Precision Frame and Alignment in Elk River, MN, and BK's shop in Tennessee.

The amount of steering play may be perfectly normal for a large vehicle.  I just don't know.  I used to have a 2005 F-350 and a VW Golf.  Even the F-350 steering felt sloppy after driving te Golf for a month.

We'll have to get together after it warms up and the weight limits are off the roads.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2009, 06:28:36 AM »

All this talk about the bus wandering. Maybe I'm missing something but I drive an E250 van almost every day and it tracks really well loaded or not and when I jump in the bus, sometimes I forget that I'm actually driving the bus because it feels the same. Solid, straight, no wander at all! Could it just be my style of driving or could it be the bus, or maybe the type tires on the bus? Radials versus bias maybe? Radials on mine all the way around!
If you were closer and my bus was out of the shop (shouldn't be too much longer) you could drive it and sample the feel!

Ace
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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2009, 07:53:10 AM »

About adjusting that steering gear.  I'll assume that it is the same basic design as a car.  You can't tell if it is too tight from the wheel.  You can only tell if it is too loose or WAY to tight.  If you look at the innards you should see that there is enormous forces in there.  If it is much too tight I honestly think it could split the box open.  Grim!

Here is how I did it after getting mine to tight.  If you adjust for zero lash at the center where it wears the fastest, when you turn to lock you will have the gear in bind.  No way to predict this.  Instead, turn the wheel to lock and adjust for zero lash.  Then turn back to center and see how much play you have.  If it too much you must rebuild.  My manuals all say that this adjustment MUST be done with the box on the bench.  I always jack my front up at the wheel frame so I can manually push the wheel from lock to lock.

Does that bus have king pins?  I had a tight king pin and it didn't let the wheel come back to center.  Was an absolute nightmare to drive.  Constant attention.  Anything in the suspension that binds will give the same result.

A friend has a shop here in Eugene.  He was sent a Beaver coach by Beaver to evaluate.  The owner, unhappy fellow, said the thing wandered on the road and was unpleasant to drive.  Ron asked me to lay under the front and look for anything unusual whuile he turned the wheel with the engine running.  What I saw absolutely AMAZED me.  The steering gear was mounted in this very sturdy looking welded plate steel three sided box like structure.  Vert stout looking.  As Ron rocked the wheel back and forth that entire box was twisting like it was made of rubber.  An inch or more each way.  Ron said that on the road and hitting a chuck hole it must have moved a lot more.  He constructed a series of heavy duty braces for the box after he reinforced.  No more movement.  The owner said if he wasn't right back he was probably back on the road and things had improved.  He called an hour later and said the thing drove like it was on rails.  Ron called Beaver to advise them of the resolution and original problem to which the service engineer said "no sh#t HuhHuh"  Made a believer out of me and I advise everyone with a problem to do that analysis.  It is cheap and you get a look at all the ball joints and pivot points/idler arms as well.

HTH,

John
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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2009, 08:27:59 AM »

re: tag axle air regulator

the regulator is mounted on the vertical bulkhead just under where the washroom door threshold was/is.

With the right contortions, you reach them down through the floor access panel, and drop the pair of 7/16 wrenches you are using with one hand repeatedly... get an assistant to crawl underneath and play catch and return.

There is one for the regular running air pressure, supposed to be set to 35 lbs for MC7/8/9, and a second one set to 15 lbs that comes into play when the tag unload switch is activated from the driver's position.

I would caution that from a practical standpoint, you want enough downforce on the tag tires that they will not lock and slide under braking, but not much more than that.

The rating on that axle is only 6000 lbs to begin with, and tag axle structure failure may be brought about earlier, the heavier you load them up. The steel framing that the air bag is attached to cracks or crumples, rust being your unfriendly assistant.

(Side note: some periodic inspection by an experienced bus body guy of the framing around the tags would be a money well spent. Yes, he is going to whack on your frame with a sharp hammer, trying to make holes... better than having the thing crumple while under way, that'll ruin your day!)

I had the chance to mess with a pair of MC8's (while someone else was paying for the flat spots on the tires!) one would slide the tag readily, with downforce in the 3500 lb neighbourhood, the other didn't with around 4200 lbs downforce. Everyone blamed the brakes, loosen off the adjustment blah blah..well, then there's no braking help at that wheel, never mind enforcement activity.... and in those early days, I was fooled too, then I did some reading....The regulator on the first was found to be putting less air, bench set back to 35 lbs and it stopped ruining tires.

So, when it comes to trouble at the ground, best to never mind being fooled by what little we know, or be mislead by those who know just as little, but get paid for it, just ensure everything that touches the ground is up to spec, all the way back to the frame mounting.

A little jack work, a little measuring, a little watching and a little pry bar in the right places to expose unwanted movement in parts.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2009, 08:55:14 AM »

Thanks BW, that was the perfect post for me, just what I was looking for.
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