Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
September 15, 2014, 06:00:54 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: 500 Members as of May 5th, 2006.  Smiley  3,499 Members as of October 21, 2012 Cheesy

   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Battery Woes  (Read 5305 times)
Kwajdiver
MCI-9 "Kwaj Diver"
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1155





Ignore
« on: February 22, 2009, 08:45:09 AM »

What is the life span of "D" Battery's (bus battery) ?   Mine are two years old and seem to be dead.   I keep a trickle charge on them when not in use. The disconnect switch stays off when not in use.

On the connect side of the disconnect switch I see two cables.  One must go to the engine, where does the other go?

Thanks for the help.

Bill
Logged

Auburndale, Florida
MCI-9
V-6-92 Detroit, Allison 5 spd auto
Kwajalein Atoll, RMI
Kwajdiver
MCI-9 "Kwaj Diver"
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1155





Ignore
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 09:13:24 AM »

 Sad  the 8D that I keep the charger on is dead.  Measured 2.97 VDC across it (left battery).  The other battery measures 12.67 VDC.
Now the question, did I help kill it by keeping a charger on it?   I wouldn't think so.

Bill
Logged

Auburndale, Florida
MCI-9
V-6-92 Detroit, Allison 5 spd auto
Kwajalein Atoll, RMI
Sean
Geek.
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2552


'85 Neoplan Spaceliner "Odyssey"


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 10:38:09 AM »

Bill,

It is possible that the charger killed it, if not the "smart" type.

Are these batteries sealed?  If not, check the electrolyte level, and add distilled water as necessary.  It's possible that so much fluid is depleted that the battery simply will not work.

Flooded lead-acid battery life span depends on many factors, including number of discharge/charge "cycles," charge rate, discharge depth, and electrolyte maintenance.  I have one FLA in my coach (the genny start battery) that is over 7 years old and still works like a champ.  OTOH, I've had FLA 8-D's that didn't last a year.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Logged

Full-timing in a 1985 Neoplan Spaceliner since 2004.
Our blog: http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
jjrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2313

MCI5C/N Ft Myers FL




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 10:49:13 AM »

 One of the reasons I converted from 8D to group 31's was 8's came with a one year warrenty and with 31's I could get up to a 7 year warrenty!!  I have no scientific or enginering reasons to justify that part of my decision, just there must be a reason for the one year warrenty.
 This were other reasons involved, but the warrenty played a part.   HTH   Jim
Logged

Remember, even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!

http://photobucket.com/buspictures

http://photobucket.com/buspictures
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12454




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 11:30:01 AM »

Bill, I have 2 8D's that or over 7 years old never been a problem it is like anything you buy in a battery there are good batteries and not so good and Costco and Sam's 8D's are not so good. Cat batteries (sealed) are hard to beat and my 8D's came with a 3 year free replacement but were about 55.00 more each than Sam's or Costco   good luck   


« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 11:36:02 AM by luvrbus » Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
Sean
Geek.
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2552


'85 Neoplan Spaceliner "Odyssey"


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 11:46:53 AM »

... Costco and Sam's 8D's are not so good. Cat batteries (sealed) are hard to beat ...


Given the described symptoms, it is highly unlikely that brand choice is a primary factor in the failure.  Any battery will die if it is mistreated, and even cheap batteries can last a long time if well taken care of.

Note, also, that neither Costco, Sam's (Wal-Mart), nor even Caterpillar makes batteries.  These are all private-label from one of the big manufacturers.  We've discussed this extensively here before:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3291.msg29687#msg29687
(Note that Bill Darden's excellent web site, which I referenced in that post, has moved.  It can now be found at http://www.batteryfaq.org)

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Logged

Full-timing in a 1985 Neoplan Spaceliner since 2004.
Our blog: http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
viento1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 193



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 12:10:19 PM »

Hello,

to answer your question, on my MCI the one cable goes to the starter and the second one goes to the mid panel - HVAC system.

About the inbalance between the two batteries was a common problem on both of  my units. It seems the PO thought it wise to source 12 volts from just one battery (usually the top one - lazy PO) check it and buy a 24olt to 12volt transformer - or if you have the cash, buy a vanier equalizer.

Obviousy poor charging will ruin any well thought out system. Also, your system is really only as good as the weakest battery...

Logged

Ok, it's time to go on another road trip.
www.randalclark.com
MC5
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12454




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 12:26:02 PM »

Sean, I don't care who makes Cat batteries Johnson Control,Exide or any other manufacture. I have good luck with CAT batteries and they have a good warranty and never had luck with the cheaper 8d's from Costco or Sam's but hey I don't have luck with LifeLine AGMs     good luck
Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
Kwajdiver
MCI-9 "Kwaj Diver"
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1155





Ignore
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 01:46:04 PM »

Water levels are alway maintaned, and are at a normal level.  Looking at the date code, this battery is 2 years 3 months old.

The second cable that goes to the HAVC, if I don't have the coach air, that cable can be removed, it that correct?  I was wondering if it feed someother 24V panel.

Bill
Logged

Auburndale, Florida
MCI-9
V-6-92 Detroit, Allison 5 spd auto
Kwajalein Atoll, RMI
JackConrad
Orange Blossom Special II
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4447


73' MC-8 8V71/HT740 Southwest Florida


WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 02:22:54 PM »

The second cable that goes to the HAVC, if I don't have the coach air, that cable can be removed, it that correct?  I was wondering if it feed someother 24V panel.
Bill

Bill,
   I think from the HVAC panel, it goes to the front panel.  Jack
Logged

Growing Older Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional
Arcadia, Florida, When we are home
http://s682.photobucket.com/albums/vv186/OBS-JC/
jjrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2313

MCI5C/N Ft Myers FL




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 02:35:43 PM »

 Bill if you disconnect any wire, do not chop it off right away. You nevver know what someone has done previously!!
Logged

Remember, even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!

http://photobucket.com/buspictures

http://photobucket.com/buspictures
viento1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 193



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 02:48:42 PM »

On an Mc5 it goes to the panel in the forward compartment. It looks to feed both the ac aswell as the heater fan and a number of smaller lugs. I would have to check my manual before I could know.

R
Logged

Ok, it's time to go on another road trip.
www.randalclark.com
MC5
Barn Owl
Roanoke, VA
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2047


PD4106-1063 "Wheezy Bus"




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 03:01:11 PM »

Exercising a battery with normal everyday use will give better longevity than just keeping one at full charge and never using it.
Logged

L. Christley - W3EYE Amateur Extra
Blue Ridge Mountains, S.W. Virginia
Itís the education gained, and the ability to apply, and share, what we learn.
Have fun, be great, that way you have Great Fun!
Cary and Don
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 669




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 03:02:25 PM »

We had a problem with batteries giving it up.  We decided it was a combination of the trickle charger on all the time and the heat in the summer.  The sun blasted that side almost all day during the summer right on the battery door.  They kept loosing water like crazy in just a couple weeks.

We started running the charger once a month, shaded the bay door, and had a disconnect between the batteries and everything else.  Haven't had any problems since.

Don and Cary
GMC4107
Neoplan AN340
Logged

1973 05 Eagle
Neoplan AN340
Kwajdiver
MCI-9 "Kwaj Diver"
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1155





Ignore
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 03:55:44 PM »

If I read some of the old threads, I can replace these 2 8D's with two group 31's?HuhHuh

How much to the 31's cost?

Bo;;
Logged

Auburndale, Florida
MCI-9
V-6-92 Detroit, Allison 5 spd auto
Kwajalein Atoll, RMI
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3510





Ignore
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2009, 03:59:15 PM »

As already posted, leaving a trickle charger on all the time will eventually ruin most batteries. It usually boils out all the water and that is the end. I've been there.  Automatic chargers eliminate this problem.

Since most batteries are made by just a few companies the brand or price has little to do with anything. Because you may get good service from a brand one time doesn't mean it will happen again, there are too many variables involved with batteries.

The best reason for buying WM batteries other than price is there are so many stores all over the country which makes adjustments easy. Getting a bad battery replaced by WM is as easy as it gets.

No, I have no interest in WM, I don't even like them.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
bobofthenorth
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2079



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2009, 04:04:29 PM »

Bill you may have missed this recent thread:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=10818.0

Logged

R.J.(Bob) Evans
1981 Prevost 8-92, 10 spd
My website
Our weblog
Simply growing older is not the same as living.
Kwajdiver
MCI-9 "Kwaj Diver"
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1155





Ignore
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2009, 04:32:52 PM »

Let me restate something, I leave a charger on it all the time when not traveling, however, it is an automatic charger.  If I understand the term automatic, once charged, the charger puts zero amps to the battery.  I would think this would not over charge the battery.

Agree or disagree?

Bill
Logged

Auburndale, Florida
MCI-9
V-6-92 Detroit, Allison 5 spd auto
Kwajalein Atoll, RMI
Sean
Geek.
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2552


'85 Neoplan Spaceliner "Odyssey"


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2009, 04:44:29 PM »

Let me restate something, I leave a charger on it all the time when not traveling, however, it is an automatic charger.  If I understand the term automatic, once charged, the charger puts zero amps to the battery.  I would think this would not over charge the battery.

Agree or disagree?


Depends on the charger, and how smart it is.  Some "automatic" chargers merely reduce the charge voltage to a trickle rate when the bulk phase is complete; true smart chargers periodically disconnect the charge circuit from the battery entirely to measure the state-of-charge before determining if any float is required.

With your symptoms, it may be the charger, or it may be a different issue, such as differential charge/discharge rates between the multiple batteries in the system.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Logged

Full-timing in a 1985 Neoplan Spaceliner since 2004.
Our blog: http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
mikelutestanski
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 381


Mikes Metal Mistress




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2009, 05:05:43 PM »

Hello:
   I have had worse luck with batteries in florida because of the heat and Huh   . The "southern"   batteries are the same group numbers but here in the south they are different than their northern cousins..  Same number is more of everything up north because of temperatures...
       True or not  Huh
       
     Regards   mike
Logged

Mike Lutestanski   Dunnellon Florida
  1972 MCI 7
  L10 Cummins  B400R  4.625R
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3510





Ignore
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2009, 07:49:47 PM »

Bill,

I probably should have said smart charger as Sean says. I had thought any automatic charger shuts off when the battery is fully charged and then resumes again when necessary, but after some more thought I realize that isn't so.

I have a couple of older large ones that shut off at full charge but don't resume charging. I really don't use them much anymore except for quick charges or boosts.

I use the largest Battery Tender which seems to do a great job no matter what size batt - from 8D to motorcycle size. It is still a pretty small charger compared to older ones. It takes a long time on the 8Ds but gets the job done.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
NJT 5573
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 808




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2009, 08:21:30 PM »

My local dealer sells 1 year 8Ds for $100. Their 3 year 8D is a combination deep cycle and start battery that is $160. Lots of difference in specs on each battery available. Budget Battery, Fife Wa. (253) 922-3737 Kerry.

Its hard to think about using anything else at these prices since the 8D really gets the job done.
Logged

"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
Barn Owl
Roanoke, VA
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2047


PD4106-1063 "Wheezy Bus"




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 09:03:33 PM »

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4192.15
Logged

L. Christley - W3EYE Amateur Extra
Blue Ridge Mountains, S.W. Virginia
Itís the education gained, and the ability to apply, and share, what we learn.
Have fun, be great, that way you have Great Fun!
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 09:41:37 PM »

Everything gets built to a price point, determined by the vendor.

The manufacturers care not, the vendor's label is on it, and they got their cash.

And I wouldn't put it past a national chain to spec weaker/cheaper for their southern stores. How would the end user know? With the big profit margin involved, for the few that venture north and turn in a weak one, or turn in a weak one period, many won't exercise the warranty when they could, it's more than paid for.

Accountants are the sneaky ones, they are quieter than lawyers....

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
jjrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2313

MCI5C/N Ft Myers FL




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2009, 03:08:00 AM »

Bill, did you read that the 8D designation is the physical size of the battery? It is not the power or amp rating. Go for as many amps as you can get.
 
The last group 31's I bought cost about $80. After some dealings with WalMart and the local auto parts store, I will pay a little more and buy my next batteries from NAPA.     Jim
Logged

Remember, even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!

http://photobucket.com/buspictures

http://photobucket.com/buspictures
JackConrad
Orange Blossom Special II
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4447


73' MC-8 8V71/HT740 Southwest Florida


WWW
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2009, 05:31:10 AM »

Hello:
   I have had worse luck with batteries in florida because of the heat and Huh   . The "southern"   batteries are the same group numbers but here in the south they are different than their northern cousins..  Same number is more of everything up north because of temperatures...
       True or not  Huh
        Regards   mike
TRUE, at least at WalMart.  I purchased 2 group 31 batteries at a WalMart in NC. 3 weeks later one of them failed in South GA. I took it to a WalMart in Waycross. I was told they would replace it at no charge, HOWEVER, it would not be the same battery. Both batteries were the same model number except for the letter at the end of the number. 1 ended in N (north) and trhe other ended in S (south). The "South " battery was about 100 lest cranking amps. Same price though.  Jack
Logged

Growing Older Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional
Arcadia, Florida, When we are home
http://s682.photobucket.com/albums/vv186/OBS-JC/
Kwajdiver
MCI-9 "Kwaj Diver"
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1155





Ignore
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2009, 03:22:47 PM »

NEW FLASH    Sad


Wally World (in my area) is going through a "MOD".  When I ask the girl in the Car Dept. what that meant, she told me that they would no longer carry the Group 31 900+ CA batteries.  They did have 800CA batteries in stock.   Granted, they may only be in Florida, but I don't know.

My new question.  What is the cranking amps you are using with the group 31 starting batteries?

Bill
Tampa Bay


Logged

Auburndale, Florida
MCI-9
V-6-92 Detroit, Allison 5 spd auto
Kwajalein Atoll, RMI
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12454




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2009, 03:34:13 PM »

Bill, you need 950cca above 32degrees and 1250 cca below 32 degrees according to the DD bible and you know that is a 30 second rating. I stay with 8d because of the reserve capacity

good luck
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 03:45:56 PM by luvrbus » Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
Van
Billy Van Hagen
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2353


89' Silver Eagle 15/40 6V92MUI Boulder City,NV




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2009, 04:43:59 PM »

FWIW ,got our 3 Group 31's at Auto Zone ,2 year free replace ment @ under 100.00 ea(Duralast 950cca-195 reserve)no problems thus far,have had to do a lot of cranking on them with the over heating problem we just had(again)LOL
Logged

If you are not living on the edge, then you're takin' up too much space!!!
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3510





Ignore
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2009, 04:59:30 PM »

MJT,

Two bad things about 8Ds to me are their heavy weight and short warranties.

Group31s come with 48-60 mo warranties and are easy to pick up. In addition, they come with FREE replacement warranties for 12-36 mo.

It is no contest as far as I am concerned and I will never again buy an 8D even for my big truck.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
Blacksheep
Guest

« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2009, 05:41:55 PM »

I too will never lift, use and be hassled with an 8D battery. In my Eagle, they always gave me problems! Building my bus on a budget like I did, I went the cheap route. I got my 4 group 31's at Sam's. Although they kept going down in charge which was actually a fault of my coach, they kept replacing them at no charge! They are Champion Labeled and are rated at 950 CCA's
Now that my charging problem is solved, so far, the batteries are doing great! Oh and they have Sam's all over the place!

Ace
Logged
jjrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2313

MCI5C/N Ft Myers FL




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2009, 05:59:50 PM »



The best reason for buying WM batteries other than price is there are so many stores all over the country which makes adjustments easy. Getting a bad battery replaced by WM is as easy as it gets.

No, I have no interest in WM, I don't even like them.

 I use to use the same reasoning. Then last year the WalMart battery (still under warrenty) in my van started to go bad. It wouild pass a load test so they would not replace it.  With a hydrometer it had a bad cell, they did not care, it passed a load test so no new battery!!  After the second no start, I just bought a new battery, but no more WalMart for me.... Then I had a problem with an AutoZone battery, thier technicians are cluless so from now on it will be NAPA.
Logged

Remember, even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!

http://photobucket.com/buspictures

http://photobucket.com/buspictures
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12454




Ignore
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2009, 06:00:59 PM »

You can buy the Interstate brand at the Sam's in my area is it that way in other locations
Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
NJT 5573
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 808




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2009, 08:00:51 PM »

Bill,

 Think you should check that one battery for a draw after its replaced. Just touch the positive terminal to the post in the dark and if you have any spark with the switch off, thats whats killing that battery.
Logged

"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
Blacksheep
Guest

« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2009, 08:40:56 PM »

Correction on my batteries. They are labeled Energizer, NOT Champion.
I have not seen Interstate batteries at any of our local Sams!
Ace
Logged
Lin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4553

1965 MC-5a




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2009, 02:09:09 PM »

I thought that there had been threads in the past the recommended using a Battery Tender as a cheap, dependable smart charger.  Wouldn't that overcome some problems?
Logged

You don't have to believe everything you think.
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3510





Ignore
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2009, 02:31:14 PM »

I've never had a single question concerning a battery exchange at WM, I even had one once that had a hole in it. I've probably exchanged 25+ WM batteries over the years, but then I have more than 20 machines using batteries too, so that isn't as many as it sounds. None of mine ever passed a load test. I have load testers of my own and test before returning so I wouldn't accept their results. If that ever happened I would go right to the store manager.

I don't see how a battery with a dead cell could ever pass a load test??

I was told by a WM clerk that some people keep batteries just up to the expiration date of the free replacement and then short them out to get a new battery. They keep records on their computer and if you do that a couple of times they will no longer exchange your bad battery. Can't blame them for that.

Ace,

Chances are that those batteries are made by Champion, many WM batteries are. Champions have also been the worst ones I've used.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
Kwajdiver
MCI-9 "Kwaj Diver"
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1155





Ignore
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2009, 03:45:18 PM »

New Batteries Today... Grin

Went to my local Sams Club and purchased two 31A-Energzers at $94.33 plus tax.  Sad  Connected them in the front battery compartment. (Plan to move them to the engine compartment soon.)   Added a couple chunks of wood to take up the empty space, didn't want them sliding around.

Hope this is the end of this subject for me for awhile at least.  Roll Eyes

Thanks for all your input.   Wink

Bill
Logged

Auburndale, Florida
MCI-9
V-6-92 Detroit, Allison 5 spd auto
Kwajalein Atoll, RMI
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!