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Author Topic: Lucas Hub Oil?  (Read 6492 times)
rv_safetyman
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« on: February 22, 2009, 06:46:22 PM »

I told Chad I would write an article on adjusting wheel bearings per this thread:  http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=11060.0.  I have been doing some more research and I think the article should give folks a good reference document to file away.

As a part of the article, I may touch on bearing lubrication.  Many of us have had wheel bearing seal issues.  Some have converted to grease.  I have switched to straight 140W gear lube.  The heavy gear lube seems to be doing the job.

In Quartzsite at the bus rally, one of the Eagle folks was really talking up the Lucas product.  He has a few of us put some on our fingers and it was a lot like STP.  It was quite viscous and would not easily leak past a reasonable good sea.  He swears that it is really great.  I did quite a bit of googling tonight and it seems to get good reviews including stopping leakage at the seal. 

I am not a fan of going the grease route (not sure why), but I am leaning towards trying the Lucas product.  Have to adjust my Bogey wheel bearings (too loose) and that would be a good time to make the switch.

Anyone have any experience with this product?

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 07:18:35 PM »

Jim, I use the Lucas a 50/50 mix with 90w gear lube in mine for the front and boogies and use a 50/50 mix with 140 gear lube for the differential and drop box.I was told by Dick Kaiser in Eugene not to run straight Lucas because shaving and other partials will stay on the bearings and with grease they fall to the bottom true or not I don't know but I put my trust in Dick he has been in that business for year's              good luck
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 07:27:47 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 07:55:17 PM »

Thanks Clifford. 

Just to be sure, Lucas makes a ton of products (even gun oil).  You are mixing the hub oil  (as opposed to Lucas engine oil or some other Lucas product) with the gear oil, right? 

In another project that I was doing some research on, some folks were using the Lucas engine oil for a 5 speed tuck transmission (3/4 - 1 ton truck).  Apparently, it is common practice to use 50 wt engine oil in many light duty truck transmissions.  There, it would make sense to use the Lucas engine oil. 

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 08:06:57 PM »

If I can, I always pack with boat trailer wheel bearing grease. Never a failure and never had to replace a seal for leakage.

Lucas was a California trucker who could not keep his truck engines and gears togather in the desert heat. He tried to buy additives to do the job and finally made his own. The products he sells today are from his experiences hauling freight in 130 degree weather, and are the products he developed to keep his trucks togather and running in the heat.

When I was a kid once I called the shop and told them the brownie was smoking in that heat around Indio. The shop foreman wanted to know if it had any oil in it so I checked and it was full. He told me to put it back into the wind. I can see why Lucas needed some help and his products really are very good. I really like his additive for worn power steering boxes, I only used a couple of ounces and had a noticable improvement. I keep wanting to put some more in but its full.
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 08:33:45 PM »

Jim, I mix it the instructions on the gal jug states use a 50/50 mix. I was running in straight when Dick replaced 4 of the bearing and that is when he gave me the advice, then I read the instructions a little late.His engine and gear oil is made by Red Line with the Lucas additive added so one of his reps told me.A fellow bus nut we know Joe Laird use the Lucas gear additive in a straight form in the hubs and differential and I don't recall him ever having problem but it didn't work for me.
good luck
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 09:12:57 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 09:49:12 PM »

I have been using Lucas products for years, just mix according to instructions. I can see a noticable difference. It also can give life to a tired engine or trans.  Wink

Great Stuff!

~Paul~
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 10:02:23 PM »

I have not used any Lucas product in the bus, but our Volvo seemed to need a new rack and pinion.  Someone said to give the Lucas additive a try.  I did and the power steering improved in less than a half hour.  We never did change the rack and pinion.  I was really impressed and was considering using a Lucas oil additive I saw in a truck stop.  Supposedly, it increases lubrication and keeps engine parts coated to avoid dry starts.  Anyone use that?
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 07:50:35 AM »

Hi  Jim,
I'm sure your article is going to be direct, to the point and well researched.

One other thing to consider with chronic wheel seal leaks.  I had a problem with my passenger drive axle seal leaking.  I finally solved the problem by replacing the seal and hub ring as one piece.  Mohawk sold a complete replacement kit ready to go.  Once I put this on the seal has not leaked again.  So, it is possible to have something mechanically wrong with the seal system besides the seal and not be able to tell visually from looking at the part.  I was able to put both seal rings right next to each other and could not tell any differences.  However, the new one is still dry.
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 08:17:56 AM »

I get the feeling there are a lot of us out here dealing with wheel seals and bearings on a regular basis. We really appreciate your help Jim and look forward to the article.
Will
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 08:23:50 AM »

I had a seal in my mitre box I replaced 3 times in one year could not figure out what I was doing wrong read the instructions on the last one and it said because of the Teflon construction do not lubricate 4 years later no leaks  best to read some seals call for lubrication and some don't    good luck
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 08:37:33 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 08:56:56 AM »

Brian, I want to make sure I know what you are saying. 

For many years, a company made a "seal saver" kit for Chevy engines for the front crank seal.  The kit was a new seal and a very thin bushing that you put over the crank.  The bushing gave you a new, smooth surface that will not tear up the seal.

Is this what you are talking about, or did you replace the bearing carrier?.  I doubt if it is the latter, since that is normally part of the axle.

If you have a link or some way for me to research, I would appreciate it.

Clifford, I am surprised about that seal.  Dan Jesel is the leading manufacturer of belt camshaft drives for racing engines.  I used to work with him when I worked for Gates.  He used that type of seal and gave very specific instructions on how to install.  Racers being racers, ignored the instructions with poor results.

I don't think that wheel seals use this technology.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2009, 09:05:19 AM »

In my truck, I used straight 50 weight mineral oil.  Adding Lucas should help. 
As to wheel bearings, straight 140 should not be used.  It is just too thick for any cold weather (below 40 degrees).  75w/140 is the industry standard since it is more fluid in cold weather and will allow proper lubricating when first starting out.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2009, 09:06:19 AM »

On the MCI drive axle hubs the wheel seal goes inside another "ring".  This "ring" is then bolted to the back side of the hub.  I'll try and find a picture and scan it in so you can see.
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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2009, 09:16:57 AM »

I think Brian is right about replacing all the parts at once.  When I ordered front wheel seals from US Coach, Luke said that if the race was not perfect (I think it was the race, but may have had a different name), it would ruin the new seal and leak.
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2009, 09:20:07 AM »

Jim the Teflon seal is very popular now for all applications.I use the DMR brand seals that come with a  wear ring ,every seal on my 8v92 is a Teflon seal no leaks         good luck
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:32:28 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2009, 10:17:06 AM »

Long ago there was(is) a product called STP.  It closely followed something called "Motor Honey".  These were "new tech" wonder products.  I used them for awhile.  The testimonials read like this thread.....cured everything from acne to rumitis.  I think Lucas is related to those products and only cause it is golden and thick.  I quit using the stuff cause there was a bombshell piece of breaking news back then that said the stuff was creating large amts of sludge that was ruining engines.  My oil pressure went up LOTS with that stuff.  A number of things came up about those heavy viscous additives and I am not saying all of them applied to Lucas:  They increased viscosity and subsequently oil pressure.  They broke down and made sludge.  The prevented the cooling that results from oil flow/bath and that accelerated wear and failure.  They had poor temp stability and turned to a rather hard substance in winter.  The increased vis robbed MPG....especially in a trans.  This stuff has been around for 50 years that I know of and it seems to be "discovered" every ten or so years.  Then it fades....again.

This stuff isn't that costly and if it was the magic that the mfr says it would be added to every new car in the world straight from the factory.  That being said, if I had a bad steering box or whatever I would add the stuff and hope.  At that point it would not have a down side.

To properly eval these "wonder" products you need that engineer.  There is a lot of data out there on the relative virtues of different oils and additives and i am sure there is a tech discussion on the "scientific" advantages of this one.  Lubricity and cling properties and "impact resistance(diff grease)" and a host of others.  Again, I would use this stuff in a New York minute in a "failing" system just to nurse it along for a while.

There is a product that passes all the Dine stuff right up and is proved.  Truckers are said to have changed to this stuff right after it was introduced.  Synthetics!!!!  Truckers use a temp gauge in their diffs and on a long hill and in the desert heat they will slow to protect an overheating diff.  Even have coolers and pumps on the diffs.  Synthetics are PROVEN to be the slipperiest stuff on the planet next to snot on a peeled onion, that you can pour into an engine.  It was a wonder product when they first introduced it to the automotive market and it still is and has no down side.  Alas, it to is not all created equal so choose wisely young Skywalker.

For wheel bearings there first was that stuff with fibers that would cling and pack nicely.  Then they found out how to formulate grease so it didn't need fibers.  The MCI bearings originally came packed with grease....I think.  Any way many did.  Time went by and they had a better idea and that was to run the bearing in 140wt oil or some such.  My understanding is that the oil served to carry some of the heat away from the bearing and in severe use save it's life.  Heavier oil, like honey, will carry away less heat as did bearing grease.  Freshly packed and without a heat consideration I think grease is better.  Then there is roll Resistance and MPG.  The truckers quickly started switching to Syn in the trans and PS and other places although the engine oil seems spendy to me.

Don't forget what I said about my being quick to use the stuff in a badly worn or failing sys....I am with you there.

John

 
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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2009, 10:38:04 AM »

MCI recommends SAE 30 in the leading and trailing axles on the 96 and 102 series buses.. (See Picture Below)
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2009, 11:13:28 AM »

Dallas, to me it is funny how different manufactures using the same bearing use a different lubrication guide on my CAT equipment it was 10w motor oil in the transmissions and the final drives where the most wear was they used 15/40 engine oil same as the engine.I about come to the conclusion if it's wet and slick it works.      good luck
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2009, 12:18:51 PM »

Me too.

I've seen just about every kind of lubricant used in just about every bearing from our old McCorrmick Deering Trac-Tractor to my 1941 A-40 Mack to the newest and bestest truck and heavy equipment. Some of it doesn't make a bit of sense.

Dallas

Dallas, to me it is funny how different manufactures using the same bearing use a different lubrication guide on my CAT equipment it was 10w motor oil in the transmissions and the final drives where the most wear was they used 15/40 engine oil same as the engine.I about come to the conclusion if it's wet and slick it works.      good luck
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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2009, 02:04:55 PM »

John.

I was also an old STP user.  It really sticks to metal.  I do not think the Lucas power steering additive is the same.  It is a good deal less viscous.  I tried another additive first and it did not work.  This one did.  I once worked for an engineering company that did some work for Martin Marietta when they were making part of the Space Shuttles.  They had ordered a piece of equipment without checking the height clearance needed to get it inside.  When it came it was so big that putting wheels under it would have made it to high to get into the building.  What they ended up doing was spreading STP on the concrete and sliding the thing in.  I thought that was impressive.  Also, I once met an engine rebuilder that said he could tell when he got an engine that had used STP.  He said that coating stuck to the metal and was a nuisance to get off.  It sounded to me that it was a negative for him, but might be a positive for the engine.  That's just speculation, of course.
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2009, 04:53:43 PM »

I have run Royal Purple in the engine,transmission and rear end( all diffrent grades) in my 4104 for 10 years. A guy I worked with always ran it in his pick up, one day his wife had the oil changed and after a week when he was driving he noticed no oil pressure. After dipping the engine no oil, the plug had been left off. He just filled it back up with RP and it ran another 67,000 miles and is still running. He used to be in one of there adds.
I believed in it so much I put it in my 135,000 mile cadlilac, after 3000 miles I found that it had cleaned the engine so good, dropped the dirt into the filter, stopped the filter up. Starved the main bearings they started to rattle. You really have to know what you are doing with these oils.

John
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2009, 05:37:46 PM »

I used STP once for a short while when my Slant 6 started a main bearing clatter and until I had time to overhaul it. I didn't notice anything unusual when I finally got around to the overhaul.

Since then I only use it for newly overhauled engines on the cam lobes and lifter faces.

I can see how it could clog an oil filter but the filter bypass should continue feeding oil to the engine?
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« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2009, 07:54:50 AM »

Gus,

It was the Royal Purple that clogged the filter, It cleaned the engine and dumped it into the filter. I should have but did not changethe filter and topped it up after 1000 miles.

John
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« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2009, 05:18:41 PM »

On the MCI drive axle hubs the wheel seal goes inside another "ring".  This "ring" is then bolted to the back side of the hub.  I'll try and find a picture and scan it in so you can see.

Jim,
I could not find a picture in the maintenance manual the picture in the parts manual is wrong.  Sorry.
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« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2009, 06:02:29 PM »

On the MCI drive axle hubs the wheel seal goes inside another "ring".  This "ring" is then bolted to the back side of the hub.  I'll try and find a picture and scan it in so you can see.


Jim,
I could not find a picture in the maintenance manual the picture in the parts manual is wrong.  Sorry.


Brian...this may not be exactly the ones you were refering to but read on.

Jim...this is what repair the worn grooved and nick on axle surfaces.

........................................................................
CR (Chicago Rawhide) seal are now own by SKF.

Scotseal is their trade name for 2 part seal into one assembly. This will seal over worn groove or nick seal surface on axle shaft.

The Scotseal PlusXL, the one that need NO tool to install…light press fit…it unlike the other Scotseal that require a tool to drive it in equally.

See for your self a close-up of all 3 versions.

Scotseals®

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2009, 07:22:20 PM »

Jerry, The ring I'm speaking of does not go on the axle and is not this particular product you refer to.  This is an aluminum ring.  The standard seal is pressed into it.  Then the ring is fitted to the back side of the hub after putting in the bearings.  A paper seal is used between the ring and the hub. The ring is screwed onto the hub using 6 (or maybe 8 ) phillips head screws.  The whole hub assembly is then pushed onto the axle where the seal "seals" against the axle.
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2009, 07:56:00 PM »

It's really rough having access to the latest technology via the internet, and then going to the parts store and the guy behind the counter not having a clue as to what you're talking about! Huh One place I tried to get my seals at didn't have any options except for National and they were 5-7 days out. The place I did buy them was able to overnight them in, but I didn't have a choice on brand or style. In fact, the ones I thought I was getting turned out to be different when they arrived. Ended up with Scot Classic and felt fortunate for that LOL. Great website for seals and such. Very worthwhile information. Thanks for posting it Gerald. Grin
Will
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2009, 11:50:49 PM »

I thought I would point out for anyone who might be having the same trouble finding them, one feature of that site is a map and contact information for their sales managers.  The appropriate sales manager could identify who carries them.

http://www.vsm.skf.com/en-US/SalesContacts/HDSalesUSA.aspx

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