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Author Topic: Calling all DDEC2 experts  (Read 4639 times)
rgwilliams
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« on: March 26, 2009, 04:22:40 PM »

I have a 4104 that was repowered by the previous owner with a 6V92 DDEC2 and VR731 ATEC.   I recently purchased a VMSpc (by SilverLeaf Electronics) to monitor fuel economy, among other things.  The odometer value sent from from the DDEC will only work sporadically.  This sounds similar to Sean's problem 2 years ago, but is slightly different.  The speedo on the VMS works, as does the cruise set speed , as do the instantaneous and recent fuel MPGs. (How that can be with no odometer I don't know). 
I drove to the DD service center this pm and he hitched his Prolink up and it shows the same odo reading as the VMSpc , so I know it's not the VMS unit.  When he checked to see the pulses per mile, at first it read "not set", and then while I was looking for data to input, it showed a value set, with no input from the Prolink.  We reset the  pulses per mile and I went for a drive and same results.  Speed perfect, and the odo only increases when it feels like it, and bears no relation to distance travelled. Is this a wiring or ECU problem? Any ideas?
Thanks
Rob W
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2009, 04:45:22 PM »

RG, have you downloaded all the upgrades from Sliverleaf, all of the VMS units I have been around don't like the DDEC 11 for what ever reason.Jim Sheperd is the local Sliverleaf guy on this board.Have you called Sliverleaf they have techs to help and on line help also.Which diagnostic pin do you have the 6 or the 9 I know a little about the VMS and they can be a pain trying to get everything to work with a DDEC11  good luck
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 07:34:53 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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rgwilliams
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2009, 05:55:08 PM »

luvrbus

That's what Silverleaf told me (poor com with DDEC2), but in this case the DD dealer's scanner is getting the same number as the VMSpc.  I have no documentation for the DDEC ATEC conection and the previous owner had some "loose ends" that might have been important.

Rob
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2009, 07:28:51 PM »

There are several VMSpc units out there on DDECII.  I don't think that the software version is a huge deal.  Having said that, it is always good to download the latest "stable" version.  That is currently 2.4 build 2.  Starting with the 2.4 versions, you can now view your Pressure Pro tire pressure sensors on the VMSpc screen.  You can see all the tires at one time (all the time) in both pressure and icon view (or both).  That requires a bridge to receive the PP sensor signal and convert it to the data stream that the VMSpc expects to see.

Sorry got off subject.  Since the ProLink got the same problem, I suspect that there might be a wiring issue in the cable from the ECM to the front data port. 

If you want to play with it, take the VMSpc and computer to the back dataport and see if you have the same problem.  As I recall, the DDECII does not have the conventional data port.  You may have to adapt.  If it works OK in the rear, you probably have a problem with the twisted pair of wire running to the front.  If that is the case, you will need to run a new twisted pair.  Before I did that, I would check the connections on both ends.  Take apart the connectors and spray them with something like CorrosionX and put them back together.

I don't think the ECM has a problem, or you would have performance issues.

Jim
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 07:31:43 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2009, 08:33:42 PM »

Jim

Thanks for your reply.  I am running 2.4 build 2.

On the VMSpc forum there was, buried in the 2.3beta thread, a query, from someone who had exactly the same symptoms I have.  His handle was "rvinternet".  I'm trying to get a reply from that forum to see what  his solution was, or if he had any resolution.

I didn't see the prolink screen as the tech manipulated it.  He only asked about a speedo drive or sensor.  I wonder if there was a 3rd choice of ATEC input on the next line down.  Do you know if that's the case?

Rob
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2009, 08:51:02 PM »

This is not a VMS issue, it's the DDEC.

I have the same problem -- my speed reads good, but my "odometer" has been stuck on the same value since I got the coach.

Instantaneous and "rolling" MPG are calculated by the Silverleaf differently -- they do not rely on the odometer reading.

I have never been able to get an answer out of Detroit on this.  Let me know if you do.  But this is definitely NOT Silverleaf's problem.

-Sean
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 03:37:42 AM »

You have problems with the Pro-Driver installed on a DDEC11 they work great on the DDEC 111 but not the 11     good luck
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 09:56:56 AM »

Sean
Agreed, I didn't think it was a Silverleaf problem at all.  I'm beginning to suspect the conversation between the DDEC and ATEC computers from where both the prolink and vms get their info.  I've located others with the same problem, all DDEC2s, and they have never solved it.  The fuel economy reading from the "recent" gauge will have to do, I guess.

Luvrbus
Never did try a Pro-driver, but I did lust over the ones in the wreckers' parts bins. I had the advertising literature and they looked pretty cool. They still wanted $400 with no harness or connectors or documentation.  But now, it looks like it wouldn't have worked for mileage either .
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 11:15:08 AM »

...  I'm beginning to suspect the conversation between the DDEC and ATEC computers from where both the prolink and vms get their info.
...


There are very few connections between the DDEC and ATEC.  I originally had a problem with this connection, which is why I did not even get a "speed" reading.  The interface is strictly for TPS information to the ATEC, and speed information to the DDEC.  In my case I have the "Maximum Feature Throttle Interface,"  and I had a bad wire, which I fixed.  Now that the speed info is getting to the DDEC correctly, there is nothing further to do with the interface.  DDEC-II can not "talk" or "listen" to the ATEC electronically the way more modern CAN-based systems do.

Quote
  I've located others with the same problem, all DDEC2s, and they have never solved it.  The fuel economy reading from the "recent" gauge will have to do, I guess.


Whenever I talk to Detroit, they say it "should" work.  But when I say "fix it" all they can do is shrug and tell me that for $2,000, they can re-program the ECM to "see" if it will work.  I have offered several times to pay the $2,000, but only after they can prove the problem is fixed.  They won't do it, so we have a stalemate.  I don't know anyone else (except you, now) with a DDEC-II that has a monitor on it (VMS, Pro-Driver, or even Pro-Link) to check.

Quote
Never did try a Pro-driver, but I did lust over the ones in the wreckers' parts bins. I had the advertising literature and they looked pretty cool. They still wanted $400 with no harness or connectors or documentation.  But now, it looks like it wouldn't have worked for mileage either .


There is absolutely no benefit for a Pro-Driver over a VMS.  They both connect to the same data stream and display the same information.  Neither can tell you anything that the DDEC ECM does not, itself, know.  As we used to say in the computer biz, GIGO (garbage in = garbage out).

Without a correctly increasing odometer reading, "average" fuel mileage can not be computed, because the VMS simply takes the total fuel used since last reset or trip reset (by keeping a running total based on the GPH figure from the DDEC and the internal clock) and divides by the difference between current odometer and odometer at master or trip reset.  Several other features of the VMS system are also rendered useless by the lack of odometer information, including the maintenance interval reminder and log, and the trip meters.

By contrast, instantaneous MPG does not use the odometer -- it is quite simply the current speed, in MPH, divided by the current fuel flow rate, in GPH (miles/hour divided by gallons/hour equals miles/gallon -- no "distance" is needed).

The other MPG figure, which on my VMS-200 is called "rolling MPG" and on your VMS-PC is apparently called "recent MPG" is a completely fabricated number, useful for almost nothing, and I don't know what Silverleaf was thinking when they created it.  As near as I can tell, it is a time-average of the instantaneous MPG I just described, over the last few minutes (I think five).  Since the VMS knows instantaneous MPG, by the method I just described, and since this number is a time average of that figure, rather than a distance-based average, again no odometer reading is needed.

Again, changing to a Pro-Driver or any other monitor will not help, because the missing information is the odometer reading from the DDEC.  No amount of sophistication in the reader device can make up for information missing from the DDEC (and, IMO, the VMS is actually a much more sophisticated monitor than the Pro-Driver anyway).

This is maddening to me, because I can't understand why the DDEC is not incrementing the odometer when it is clearly seeing speed pulses from the speed input.  Miles are just speed over time, so all the underlying information is there to do it.  Also, my DDEC clearly has numbers in it for the odometer and the "time at idle," but they never change.  I have no idea where those numbers came from in the first place.

If anyone here has in depth knowledge of the inner workings of the DDEC ECM and knows how to fix this (even if that means paying for some specific program change), I'd love to hear from you.

-Sean
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 04:48:38 PM »

I installed a silverleaf in a friends Wonderlodge with a dd2 and it worked fine.  It is a 1990 don't know what they did, but it worked.  Where are you trying to get the info from?  Do you have a plus sender or are you trying to get it from the odometer?
Jack
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 05:30:17 PM »

Jack,

The Silverleaf gets all its information from the DDEC ECM.  It is a very simple two-wire interface, there is nothing else to connect.

The DDEC gets speed information from any one of a choice of senders.  On most ATEC-equipped coaches, the tailshaft revolutions are sent to the DDEC by the ATEC through a very simple pulse interface.  This is the case on my bus.  This interface is working;  my DDEC correctly reports vehicle speed after properly programming the differential ratio (in my case, 4.3:1) and the tire revs/mile (in my case 480).

The DDEC keeps an internal Odometer, and also an engine hour meter.  On my DDEC, and apparently others, the Odometer function inside the DDEC ECM is not working.

-Sean
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2009, 04:57:45 AM »

Sean,
Just a statement, that the one on the Wonderlodge did work.  I also have a silverleaf and my son has one also.  They are both on DD4.  The one that I put on my friends Wonderlodge gives you the same info that the others I have installed.
I will also check his with my prolink the next time I am in NC.  I will make a better post after that happens.
Jack
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2009, 06:16:42 AM »

Prevost offers and has a listing actual part numbers for the Pro Driver for my 1992 8v92 DDEC 2. If they were or are missing info in order to work properly, why would they have them listed and equipped on some units already on the road. My friend has one in his and it works flawlessly!
Could it be that the ecm that is in question has a problem internally? I know they are built tough but things can happen over years of use!

Ace
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2009, 10:15:20 AM »

Ace,

Yes, I suspect there is a "problem" with the ECM.  However, the problem did not go away after changing ECM's.  Since they simply load your entire configuration into the other ECM when they swap them, I suspect my problem is in the configuration.

Again, I asked Detroit if they can pull the config from the mother shop and reload it.  That's what they quoted me $2,000 to do, with no refund if it does not actually fix the problem.

I've talked to dozens of DD technicians about this, and not a single one can tell me why these numbers do not increment properly.  I thought I was all alone in this regard, but this thread has informed my that at least a few others have the exact same issue.  If someone here knows exactly what to set or change in the ECM, or what program change would be needed from Detroit, I am all ears.

-Sean
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2009, 05:09:32 PM »

Sean,

Back in the day, as a last resort OR to prove a theory, swapping the suspect module was done....and taught by me.  My rule was that it wasn't enuf to "cure" the problem...you have to prove that the problem "follows" the module.

There seems to be Silver Leaf systems out there that work on DD II.  Is there an owner out there that would swap your ECM into his system and verify the operability of his system?  Next step would be to install their ECM in your system to "prove" the conclusion if yours doesn't work in theirs.  Both of you are mobile....?  With your rep and credential I think I would hold out hope that a deal could be struck.  Jack seems to have a handle on one and with his involvement....?  That still wouldn't split the hair of software or hardware, but?

As I read this I thought back to the most "maddening" problems I had ever encountered.  Almost every one involved multiple failures that trashed all logic.  I guess that won't be proved till you find the "one".

Good luck on this.  That you are stumped scares me a little cause I have a small idea of your capability.

John
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2009, 05:26:32 PM »

John,

We have already swapped Silverleaf units to no avail.

Again, this is not a Silverleaf problem.  It is a problem with the DDEC ECM, as verified by a Pro-Link.  I have no doubt that there may be people with Silverleaf products that work fine on their DDEC-II systems, but that will be because their DDEC ECMs do not have the same problem that my ECM has.

Swapping Silverleafs with any of those people will simply verify that the problem is in my ECM, something I have already proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Swapping ECM's with any of them is not advisable, since ECM programming is specific to the engine and application.  More importantly, even if someone else's ECM installed on my engine did cure the odometer problem, that still does not tell me how to fix my ECM so that it doesn't have the odometer problem.

I have the suspicion in the back of my mind that this is somehow related to the ECM clock, but I have no way to access that to even see what is going on there.

This problem is so vexing (and frustrating) precisely because Detroit has such a tight stranglehold on the ECM programming.  Even their distributors (e.g. Williams, Stewart & Stevenson, Valley Power, etc.) have no access -- ECM programs must come from Detroit itself.

-Sean
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2009, 05:49:11 PM »

Sean,

I'm afraid I wasn't clear.  I was talking about swapping the ECM but it is interesting that you proved the SL module already.  I get all that stuff about the programing being specific to an engine's configuration.  Just what is the difference between an 8V92 with a 740 with specific injectors in two different buses?  Seems their should be some commonality out there.  On the other hand....the post was addressed to "experts" and I am having difficulty with even coming up with semi intelligent questions.

Really sad that DD won't work with you more than they seem to be willing to do.  Really sad! Sad

Good luck on this,

John
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2009, 06:04:38 PM »

John,

I suppose I would be willing to swap ECM's with another 475bhp 8V92TA coupled to an Allison 748 with a Maximum Feature Throttle Interface (probably not all that common a configuration, though) with a working Silverleaf.  However, that's a lot of work (my ECM is very difficult to remove), and I strongly suspect that, if the ECM is providing odometer information in their application, it will also provide it in mine.  I suppose there is a very small chance that it would not, in which case, I would learn that it is something about my environement (sensors, etc.), and so, yes, I would definitely try it.  I'm not sanguine about it -- there is very little involved in the ATEC-DDEC interface, and I think the valid speed information proves that it is working correctly.

So, how 'bout it:  Anyone have exactly that configuration that wants to "lend" me their ECM for a test?

-Sean
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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2009, 05:14:04 AM »

DD2 are very cheap and I do know someone that will reprogram one for $200.00 To your engine.  If you would like more info on where to get one programed contact me by email.
Jack
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2009, 06:07:46 AM »

Yea I thought the 2000.00 charge was a bit high. When I thought I needed a new ecm or get mine reprog'd, the quoate from DD wasn't anywhere near that! Then some local bus nuts said they knew of someone very capable to do it for a couple hundred bucks. Probably the same guy Jack knows since we live close. The good thing is I didn't have to go that route!
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2009, 10:00:56 AM »

DD2 are very cheap and I do know someone that will reprogram one for $200.00 To your engine.


and

Yea I thought the 2000.00 charge was a bit high. When I thought I needed a new ecm or get mine reprog'd, the quoate from DD wasn't anywhere near that!


OK, guys, let me clarify what we are talking about.

In the DDEC-II ECM there are three different things that can be loaded in memory:
  • The program itself.
  • Dealer-configurable parameters.
  • User-configurable parameters.

What most people, including many DD dealers, will do for you for $200 is change the last item -- "user configurable parameters."  In fact, you can change these yourself if you happen to have, say, a Pro-Link.  The $200 (or whatever they charge) covers their time (anywhere from five minutes to maybe half an hour, depending on what is being changed), plus helps recover the cost of the Pro-Link.  A Pro-Link with all the cables for, say, half a dozen engines can run into several thousand dollars.

User-configurable parameters include things like the maximum governed speed of the vehicle, the maximum cruise-control speed, and even whether the engine shuts down or merely lights a check light on certain conditions like low coolant.  This is also where you configure the revs/mile of your wheels to get the speed right.  There are perhaps a dozen or so user-configurable parameters, depending on engine options.

Dealer-configurable parameters include whether or not cruise control is enabled, certain (but not all) injection parameters, and a handful of other items that Detroit has decided to allow dealers the discretion to charge for as they see fit.  Also set here are certain emissions-related parameters including smoke control.  The $200 figure you are mentioning above might also include changing some of these items, assuming the person is equipped not only with a Pro-Link or DDDL-equipped PC, but also has the appropriate password to change these parameters.

The "program" is something that must come from Detroit.  This is where the BHP of the engine is set, all remaining fuel injection parameters are set, the engine serial number is burned, the encrypted master password for the other protected parameters is stored, etc.

Detroit dealers can not change the program in any engine.  They must download the program, with any purchased revisions, from a computer at DD using their DDDL computer.  They can then load the new program into your ECM.

Note that this is seldom done, not even for a "new" ECM.  When you need a new ECM due to hardware issues, your Detroit dealer simply uploads the program from your existing ECM, then downloads it into the "new" or replacement ECM.  Since it is the same program, there is no need to involve Detroit.  Even if your old ECM is completely destroyed, your dealer can download your existing program (without any changes) from Detroit for a very nominal charge.  It's only if you need a program change that things get pricey.

Also note that only DD authorized distributors, not independent shops, can download program changes from DD.  So if you've heard that some independent shop or guy someplace can "change your program," what they are really talking about is editing the configurable parameters.

All of that said, like anything else computer-related, there are "hackers," and all you have to do is listen to the CB while rolling through, say, Kingman to know that there are bootleggers out there who will offer to, for example, crank up your ECM-controlled BHP rating, something for which the OEM engine manufacturers want to charge dearly.  And, while it is tempting to want to try them, there are two problems -- one is that these guys are focused on making a quick buck selling horsepower; I don't think they have the skills or the patience to diagnose an obscure odometer problem.  Secondly, I would guess that DDEC-II is not one of the systems they've cracked; there are almost no long-haul trucks still using this system, which was only produced from 1988-1989 (when it was replaced by DDEC-III), so that's not where the money is.

FWIW, we've already spent close to five hours on this problem with a Pro-Link, and have worked every conceivable configurable parameter.  Since we don't own a Pro-Link, you can figure we've dropped close to $500 on configuration changes.  Part of that, of course, was to fix the original problem, wherein I was not getting any speed information, either.

Now, having said that, I will happily pay anyone $200, or even $2,000, to fix this problem.  But the condition is:  no fix, no pay.  Jack, if you want to send me the contact details on your guy, I'll give him a call.  But my guess is that he can only do what we've already tried.  Email me at slwelsh-at-gmail.com.

-Sean
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2009, 10:21:09 AM »

Sean,
For the $200.00 plus freight you can get the ECM programed to what ever you want.  I own a prolink and have the Detroit program to check the ECM on my computer.   The program that I was talking about is a full reprogram to what ever you want.  Some times it helps to have friends in the right place.  When I did the first engine change Detroit charged me $1100.00 just to turn the jake on and change the HP from 275 to 320.  The dealers don't have to pay to get down the program for your serial number.  Then they can make changes for the pin out and in's the way you want them.  I am not trying to drum up business for my friend, just letting you know if you need the services.
Jack
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2009, 10:25:49 AM »

Jack,

Send me the contact info and I will talk to him.

The $1,100 you mentioned to change BHP is consistent with what I've experienced at DD dealers.  I think the $2,000 charge that I was quoted was to completely reset the program and put it into a rebuilt ECM.

-Sean
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2009, 10:51:03 AM »

Sean,

Jack said:

The program that I was talking about is a full reprogram to what ever you want.  Some times it helps to have friends in the right place.

Now see what you went and started? Huh  I would take that as GOOD NEWS. Cool

You seem to me to be trying desperately to hang on to a problem that you were willing to drop $2K on shortly ago.  Out of character for you, as I judge.  I hope you take Jack up on his most generous offer and keep an open mind on this.  Really sorry if that comes out wrong...really.  I sense that you are having difficulty with something and it is leaking over.  I hope I am wrong about this and that all is well with you and yours.

Your friend and fellow bus Knut,

John


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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2009, 10:52:19 AM »

My take on this would be that this guy has the off-road program that has modified in some way because I have seen the security surrounding the program at Stewart and Stevenson and I don't think he can reprogram the ECM may be wrong but you need a DD dealer even to set the clock on one of these engines        good luck
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2009, 11:30:43 AM »

You seem to me to be trying desperately to hang on to a problem that you were willing to drop $2K on shortly ago.  Out of character for you, as I judge.


Believe me, John, I am definitely not trying to hang on to this problem.  I've been working on it for three years, off and on, and I am leery now of anyone who tells me how "easy" it is to fix.

My lengthy post, as is often the case, was meant to educate.  After spending considerable time at six different branches of three different DD distributors (Williams, Valley, and S&S) trying to get this resolved, I learned a great deal about the process, which I posted above.  I knew almost none of that before I started, and very little of it is documented anyplace easy to find (like the Internet).

What has been the most frustrating in all of this has been the virtually complete unwillingness by any of those firms to even acknowledge it as a problem, let alone commit to fixing it.

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I hope you take Jack up on his most generous offer and keep an open mind on this.


I've contacted Jack off-list, and my mind is open.  But I learned some time ago that people claiming that something is easily solved often (but not always) didn't really understand the full scope of the problem.

As an example, I've dealt with perhaps a dozen commercial tire shops since I got this bus.  Every single one of them has claimed that it would be "no problem" to balance my wheels.  After the first few shops could not do it, I learned to explain very specifically to shops that my wheels might be a problem for them; even then, shops continually claim "no problem."  In all of my tire-changing experience, I have been to exactly one shop that actually had the equipment to balance my wheels.  All those "no problem" guys?  They just stood there, dumbfounded (and what an appropriate word that is), scratching their heads and saying "we ain't never had this problem before."

We had the same thing happen with a windshield.  On the phone, "no problem."  After we spent real money, time, and other resources getting there?  "Sorry, we can't do that."  These folks never offer to reimburse you for your personal outlay to go see them.  So, yes, I'm somewhat jaded, and I try, therefore, to be extremely explicit, possibly annoyingly so, about what the problem is, and what possible solutions we've already tried, when conversing with people offering to help.  If you go back through the blog, you will find a time when I was more trusting and less questioning about such things -- that's how I ended up with a bent axle at a tire shop, and an air filter that didn't filter the air.  FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2009, 01:28:03 PM »

Sean,

I followed that air filter adventure with baited breath.  I felt sick thinking about what you must have been going thru.  Jaded is only one word for it and, yes, you come by your perspective honestly.

I haven't heard the one about the bent axle.  For my edification, would you retell that tale?  You know, "Once upon a time in Texas there was this....." kinda stuff and  I promise I won't interrupt and I'll go straight to sleep afterwards cause I know it will end well. Tongue Grin Grin Grin

John
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2009, 01:44:31 PM »

I haven't heard the one about the bent axle.  For my edification, would you retell that tale?


Sure.  Here's how it happened:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2006/10/long-excruciating-day.html

There's a photo of the damage at the bottom of this post:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/06/shame-on-me-for-not-posting-any-photos.html

Here's where, having yet to fix the damage a full year later, the bent axle ate a set of tires:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/10/day-of-frustration.html

And here's where we discussed the ultimate resolution of this right here on the board:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=10848.0

and on our blog (with photos):
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2009/03/tax-axle-fixed.html

Ask, and ye shall receive (whether you want it or not!)...

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2009, 10:30:44 AM »

I have at least one customer who has converted the ECM from DDECII to DDECIII.  Apparently DD sells the conversion parts.  I would expect that conversion would be less than $2K.  As I recall, the conversion parts are mostly wiring harness adapters.

The conversion does not buy you any additional functionality, but might buy you better ECM technology.

Just a thought
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« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2009, 10:50:20 AM »

Jim, on one of the upgrades I can not remember if  is the 1 to the 111 or what but you have to change the bull gear from a 16 tooth to 32 tooth on the DDEC     good luck
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« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2009, 02:44:25 PM »

Sean,

Your suggestion:
Sure.  Here's how it happened:

is a real page turner.  No wonder you are "jaded" or whatever.  I would probably be in prison or in an institution for the "luck" challenged.  Good for you that you came out of it in one piece, albeit, much lighter.  Did the shop that did the damage remember that it was going to "pick up the cost of repair"?

What was the reason that the "A" frame was not re welded after cutting out the crushed part as a repair?  Don't mean to be simplistic and I hope you won't prefix your answer "look stupid" Grin  Didn't seem that they were equipped to effect repair at the shop that damaged it in the first place, as I understood it.  Escondido is a nice place in the winter.  I know cause I lived in Poway, just south, for many years.  God's gift if it weren't for the incredible growth and traffic that it sees today.

Your last generous post concerned camping sites and charges.  I have never seen a compiled list off pubs on that subject and yours is now downloaded AND marked.  Thank you for taking the time and spending the energy.

John
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« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2009, 04:09:23 PM »

OK, before I answer John, which is something of a thread hijack, I will say here that I heard from Jack off-line, and I will be contacting his DDEC ECM guy just as soon as we are back in cell phone range (we're out in the desert now with 0 bars, and will be for a few more days, but, hey, I have Internet, so I'm set).

...  Did the shop that did the damage remember that it was going to "pick up the cost of repair"?


We have not contacted them yet.  I needed the alignment bill from Freightliner as the final piece of the puzzle (along with the bill to replace the A-frame, and the bill for the used A-frame and bushings).  Now that I have it all, I am putting it together with a letter and a copy of the letter from the tire shop saying they would reimburse us (we made them put it in writing), and I will mail it off to them on our way west from here.

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What was the reason that the "A" frame was not re welded after cutting out the crushed part as a repair?  Don't mean to be simplistic and I hope you won't prefix your answer "look stupid" ... Didn't seem that they were equipped to effect repair at the shop that damaged it in the first place, as I understood it.


They were neither willing nor able to fix it at the shop that did the damage.  Cutting and welding has never been my first choice for the repair for several reasons, which you can read in the other thread.  Once I had acquired the replacement part, it was a matter of finding a shop willing and able to do the work.

Quote
Your last generous post concerned camping sites and charges.  I have never seen a compiled list off pubs on that subject and yours is now downloaded AND marked. 


Thanks.  If you are referring to the post about our printed camping guides the credit for that one goes to Louise.  I did the extensive write-up on "dispersed camping" for free on public lands.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2009, 10:45:34 AM »

Sean;

Email timahlf@dnaparts.com I talked to him this morning and told him some of the problems you have had. I think he may be able to help you. He helps me with all my ecm issues

Hope this helps,

Don
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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2009, 12:55:03 PM »

Don,

Well, clearly he doesn't remember it, but I rolled in to D&A a couple years ago, and I talked to Tim about this exact problem directly and in person.  He allowed that he could not understand why it would do that, but said he would look into it and perhaps talk to some folks at DD about it.  I left him a card.

He has never since called, emailed, or written back.  I wrote him off as the sort of person who can't be bothered with a bus nut with a weird Neoplan (many people have fallen into this category over the years).  Perhaps now that he has heard from you about it, he'll be more inclined to help me, so I will drop him an email.

D&A was so busy then, they couldn't fit us into the shop schedule, either.

My write-up on that visit is here:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/02/bleaky-day-in-king-city.html

Thanks very much for helping out, though, I appreciate it.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2009, 11:25:58 AM »

Just finished visiting a keen DDEC tech.  He doesn't do anything to DDEC2s as they are way before his time, but he remembered hearing about two things peculiar to them.
1- There is a battery that keeps the accumulator portion of  the DDEC alive to remember total values as they run on.  This is different from the portion that keeps the programming stored.  (There is supposed to be a code to identify this low voltage but he said it doesn't always show-code #53).  Trip fuel, PID  182, and trip distance, PID 244, are not showing any increase.
Actually, the last statement I've found out is not quite accurate.  PID244 shows an increase only when there is zero fuel flow ie when coasting downhill for more than a tenth of a mile!
The battery  was supposed to be non-replaceable.  I know mine is 19 years old.
2-  The PROM responsible for the accumulators inside DDEC2s was never "secured" in the early versions and had a habit of vibrating partially out of its' socket, causing strange readings that were not predictable.  This was particularly applicable to engines that were canted with the DDEC mounted vertically, allowing the vibes to shake it out.  Apparently DDEC 2 later version and newer are solidly attached. Mine is a "transit package" that is tipped 43 degrees, DDEC perpendicular to the ground.
I'm going to open the box sometime soon and see what I can find.  I'll post results.

Rob
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2009, 12:45:37 PM »

Sean,

Did you ever get in touch with Jack's ECM guy?  Maybe the guy that Don referred you to just lost your contact info.  Maybe???

Hey, I can do a segway into any subject.  i think I am part crab in that regard.  I hope you will update the original post so your last update to me will speak better to the board.   My bad!

Did you ever get any response to your solicitation for a replacement ECM to "try".  Easy to imagine that Knuts would be reluctant to part with theirs to be installed in an "unknown" system.  EASY!  Might have better luck sending yours to a bus with an operating system to have them "try" yours.  Were it me I would happily do that as you can't blow out a sensor with an ECM.

That suggestion that you upgrade to a DDEC III with a kit from DD sounded like it had merit.  Was the total price under the $2K that you mentioned?

Hope there is "joy in the cockpit". Smiley

John
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2009, 03:20:16 PM »

Did you ever get in touch with Jack's ECM guy?


We've just been back in cell phone coverage for a day.  It's on my list, but not high priority (I've lived with this issue for years; another few days isn't going to make a difference).

Quote
Maybe the guy that Don referred you to just lost your contact info.  Maybe???


Maybe he did, but no excuse now:  I emailed him after Don posted that.  So far, have not even received an acknowledgment of my message.

Quote
Did you ever get any response to your solicitation for a replacement ECM to "try".  ...  Might have better luck sending yours to a bus with an operating system to have them "try" yours.


No I did not.  "Sending" my ECM anywhere is out of the question -- we drive nearly every day, and we could be called to a disaster any time.  We can't have the bus "down" for an indeterminate period with its ECM out.  This has to be a drive in, try it, drive back out sort of exchange.

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That suggestion that you upgrade to a DDEC III with a kit from DD sounded like it had merit.  Was the total price under the $2K that you mentioned?


Upgrading to DDEC-III is upwards of $4,000, with virtually no benefit (other than maybe fixing this problem).

1- There is a battery that keeps the accumulator portion of  the DDEC alive to remember total values as they run on.  This is different from the portion that keeps the programming stored.  (There is supposed to be a code to identify this low voltage but he said it doesn't always show-code #53).  Trip fuel, PID  182, and trip distance, PID 244, are not showing any increase.
Actually, the last statement I've found out is not quite accurate.  PID244 shows an increase only when there is zero fuel flow ie when coasting downhill for more than a tenth of a mile!
The battery  was supposed to be non-replaceable.  I know mine is 19 years old.


OK, now this explanation makes sense to me.  However, when I have asked around about this, and researched it on-line, what I have been told is that the memory battery did not come along until DDEC-III, DDEC-II did not have one.  That said, it's hard to know whom to believe in this regard.  If you discover this to be true for sure, let me know.  I am more than happy to take a soldering iron to the board and replace the battery.

Quote
2-  The PROM responsible for the accumulators inside DDEC2s was never "secured" in the early versions and had a habit of vibrating partially out of its' socket, causing strange readings that were not predictable.  This was particularly applicable to engines that were canted with the DDEC mounted vertically, allowing the vibes to shake it out.  Apparently DDEC 2 later version and newer are solidly attached. Mine is a "transit package" that is tipped 43 degrees, DDEC perpendicular to the ground.


This one I knew about.  There is actually a little clip for it that came out as a retrofit to fix this issue, and my ECM has been checked for this clip.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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