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Author Topic: Calling all DDEC2 experts  (Read 4621 times)
Sean
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2009, 05:26:32 PM »

John,

We have already swapped Silverleaf units to no avail.

Again, this is not a Silverleaf problem.  It is a problem with the DDEC ECM, as verified by a Pro-Link.  I have no doubt that there may be people with Silverleaf products that work fine on their DDEC-II systems, but that will be because their DDEC ECMs do not have the same problem that my ECM has.

Swapping Silverleafs with any of those people will simply verify that the problem is in my ECM, something I have already proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Swapping ECM's with any of them is not advisable, since ECM programming is specific to the engine and application.  More importantly, even if someone else's ECM installed on my engine did cure the odometer problem, that still does not tell me how to fix my ECM so that it doesn't have the odometer problem.

I have the suspicion in the back of my mind that this is somehow related to the ECM clock, but I have no way to access that to even see what is going on there.

This problem is so vexing (and frustrating) precisely because Detroit has such a tight stranglehold on the ECM programming.  Even their distributors (e.g. Williams, Stewart & Stevenson, Valley Power, etc.) have no access -- ECM programs must come from Detroit itself.

-Sean
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2009, 05:49:11 PM »

Sean,

I'm afraid I wasn't clear.  I was talking about swapping the ECM but it is interesting that you proved the SL module already.  I get all that stuff about the programing being specific to an engine's configuration.  Just what is the difference between an 8V92 with a 740 with specific injectors in two different buses?  Seems their should be some commonality out there.  On the other hand....the post was addressed to "experts" and I am having difficulty with even coming up with semi intelligent questions.

Really sad that DD won't work with you more than they seem to be willing to do.  Really sad! Sad

Good luck on this,

John
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Sean
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2009, 06:04:38 PM »

John,

I suppose I would be willing to swap ECM's with another 475bhp 8V92TA coupled to an Allison 748 with a Maximum Feature Throttle Interface (probably not all that common a configuration, though) with a working Silverleaf.  However, that's a lot of work (my ECM is very difficult to remove), and I strongly suspect that, if the ECM is providing odometer information in their application, it will also provide it in mine.  I suppose there is a very small chance that it would not, in which case, I would learn that it is something about my environement (sensors, etc.), and so, yes, I would definitely try it.  I'm not sanguine about it -- there is very little involved in the ATEC-DDEC interface, and I think the valid speed information proves that it is working correctly.

So, how 'bout it:  Anyone have exactly that configuration that wants to "lend" me their ECM for a test?

-Sean
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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2009, 05:14:04 AM »

DD2 are very cheap and I do know someone that will reprogram one for $200.00 To your engine.  If you would like more info on where to get one programed contact me by email.
Jack
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2009, 06:07:46 AM »

Yea I thought the 2000.00 charge was a bit high. When I thought I needed a new ecm or get mine reprog'd, the quoate from DD wasn't anywhere near that! Then some local bus nuts said they knew of someone very capable to do it for a couple hundred bucks. Probably the same guy Jack knows since we live close. The good thing is I didn't have to go that route!
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Sean
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2009, 10:00:56 AM »

DD2 are very cheap and I do know someone that will reprogram one for $200.00 To your engine.


and

Yea I thought the 2000.00 charge was a bit high. When I thought I needed a new ecm or get mine reprog'd, the quoate from DD wasn't anywhere near that!


OK, guys, let me clarify what we are talking about.

In the DDEC-II ECM there are three different things that can be loaded in memory:
  • The program itself.
  • Dealer-configurable parameters.
  • User-configurable parameters.

What most people, including many DD dealers, will do for you for $200 is change the last item -- "user configurable parameters."  In fact, you can change these yourself if you happen to have, say, a Pro-Link.  The $200 (or whatever they charge) covers their time (anywhere from five minutes to maybe half an hour, depending on what is being changed), plus helps recover the cost of the Pro-Link.  A Pro-Link with all the cables for, say, half a dozen engines can run into several thousand dollars.

User-configurable parameters include things like the maximum governed speed of the vehicle, the maximum cruise-control speed, and even whether the engine shuts down or merely lights a check light on certain conditions like low coolant.  This is also where you configure the revs/mile of your wheels to get the speed right.  There are perhaps a dozen or so user-configurable parameters, depending on engine options.

Dealer-configurable parameters include whether or not cruise control is enabled, certain (but not all) injection parameters, and a handful of other items that Detroit has decided to allow dealers the discretion to charge for as they see fit.  Also set here are certain emissions-related parameters including smoke control.  The $200 figure you are mentioning above might also include changing some of these items, assuming the person is equipped not only with a Pro-Link or DDDL-equipped PC, but also has the appropriate password to change these parameters.

The "program" is something that must come from Detroit.  This is where the BHP of the engine is set, all remaining fuel injection parameters are set, the engine serial number is burned, the encrypted master password for the other protected parameters is stored, etc.

Detroit dealers can not change the program in any engine.  They must download the program, with any purchased revisions, from a computer at DD using their DDDL computer.  They can then load the new program into your ECM.

Note that this is seldom done, not even for a "new" ECM.  When you need a new ECM due to hardware issues, your Detroit dealer simply uploads the program from your existing ECM, then downloads it into the "new" or replacement ECM.  Since it is the same program, there is no need to involve Detroit.  Even if your old ECM is completely destroyed, your dealer can download your existing program (without any changes) from Detroit for a very nominal charge.  It's only if you need a program change that things get pricey.

Also note that only DD authorized distributors, not independent shops, can download program changes from DD.  So if you've heard that some independent shop or guy someplace can "change your program," what they are really talking about is editing the configurable parameters.

All of that said, like anything else computer-related, there are "hackers," and all you have to do is listen to the CB while rolling through, say, Kingman to know that there are bootleggers out there who will offer to, for example, crank up your ECM-controlled BHP rating, something for which the OEM engine manufacturers want to charge dearly.  And, while it is tempting to want to try them, there are two problems -- one is that these guys are focused on making a quick buck selling horsepower; I don't think they have the skills or the patience to diagnose an obscure odometer problem.  Secondly, I would guess that DDEC-II is not one of the systems they've cracked; there are almost no long-haul trucks still using this system, which was only produced from 1988-1989 (when it was replaced by DDEC-III), so that's not where the money is.

FWIW, we've already spent close to five hours on this problem with a Pro-Link, and have worked every conceivable configurable parameter.  Since we don't own a Pro-Link, you can figure we've dropped close to $500 on configuration changes.  Part of that, of course, was to fix the original problem, wherein I was not getting any speed information, either.

Now, having said that, I will happily pay anyone $200, or even $2,000, to fix this problem.  But the condition is:  no fix, no pay.  Jack, if you want to send me the contact details on your guy, I'll give him a call.  But my guess is that he can only do what we've already tried.  Email me at slwelsh-at-gmail.com.

-Sean
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2009, 10:21:09 AM »

Sean,
For the $200.00 plus freight you can get the ECM programed to what ever you want.  I own a prolink and have the Detroit program to check the ECM on my computer.   The program that I was talking about is a full reprogram to what ever you want.  Some times it helps to have friends in the right place.  When I did the first engine change Detroit charged me $1100.00 just to turn the jake on and change the HP from 275 to 320.  The dealers don't have to pay to get down the program for your serial number.  Then they can make changes for the pin out and in's the way you want them.  I am not trying to drum up business for my friend, just letting you know if you need the services.
Jack
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Sean
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2009, 10:25:49 AM »

Jack,

Send me the contact info and I will talk to him.

The $1,100 you mentioned to change BHP is consistent with what I've experienced at DD dealers.  I think the $2,000 charge that I was quoted was to completely reset the program and put it into a rebuilt ECM.

-Sean
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2009, 10:51:03 AM »

Sean,

Jack said:

The program that I was talking about is a full reprogram to what ever you want.  Some times it helps to have friends in the right place.

Now see what you went and started? Huh  I would take that as GOOD NEWS. Cool

You seem to me to be trying desperately to hang on to a problem that you were willing to drop $2K on shortly ago.  Out of character for you, as I judge.  I hope you take Jack up on his most generous offer and keep an open mind on this.  Really sorry if that comes out wrong...really.  I sense that you are having difficulty with something and it is leaking over.  I hope I am wrong about this and that all is well with you and yours.

Your friend and fellow bus Knut,

John


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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2009, 10:52:19 AM »

My take on this would be that this guy has the off-road program that has modified in some way because I have seen the security surrounding the program at Stewart and Stevenson and I don't think he can reprogram the ECM may be wrong but you need a DD dealer even to set the clock on one of these engines        good luck
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Sean
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2009, 11:30:43 AM »

You seem to me to be trying desperately to hang on to a problem that you were willing to drop $2K on shortly ago.  Out of character for you, as I judge.


Believe me, John, I am definitely not trying to hang on to this problem.  I've been working on it for three years, off and on, and I am leery now of anyone who tells me how "easy" it is to fix.

My lengthy post, as is often the case, was meant to educate.  After spending considerable time at six different branches of three different DD distributors (Williams, Valley, and S&S) trying to get this resolved, I learned a great deal about the process, which I posted above.  I knew almost none of that before I started, and very little of it is documented anyplace easy to find (like the Internet).

What has been the most frustrating in all of this has been the virtually complete unwillingness by any of those firms to even acknowledge it as a problem, let alone commit to fixing it.

Quote
I hope you take Jack up on his most generous offer and keep an open mind on this.


I've contacted Jack off-list, and my mind is open.  But I learned some time ago that people claiming that something is easily solved often (but not always) didn't really understand the full scope of the problem.

As an example, I've dealt with perhaps a dozen commercial tire shops since I got this bus.  Every single one of them has claimed that it would be "no problem" to balance my wheels.  After the first few shops could not do it, I learned to explain very specifically to shops that my wheels might be a problem for them; even then, shops continually claim "no problem."  In all of my tire-changing experience, I have been to exactly one shop that actually had the equipment to balance my wheels.  All those "no problem" guys?  They just stood there, dumbfounded (and what an appropriate word that is), scratching their heads and saying "we ain't never had this problem before."

We had the same thing happen with a windshield.  On the phone, "no problem."  After we spent real money, time, and other resources getting there?  "Sorry, we can't do that."  These folks never offer to reimburse you for your personal outlay to go see them.  So, yes, I'm somewhat jaded, and I try, therefore, to be extremely explicit, possibly annoyingly so, about what the problem is, and what possible solutions we've already tried, when conversing with people offering to help.  If you go back through the blog, you will find a time when I was more trusting and less questioning about such things -- that's how I ended up with a bent axle at a tire shop, and an air filter that didn't filter the air.  FWIW.

-Sean
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2009, 01:28:03 PM »

Sean,

I followed that air filter adventure with baited breath.  I felt sick thinking about what you must have been going thru.  Jaded is only one word for it and, yes, you come by your perspective honestly.

I haven't heard the one about the bent axle.  For my edification, would you retell that tale?  You know, "Once upon a time in Texas there was this....." kinda stuff and  I promise I won't interrupt and I'll go straight to sleep afterwards cause I know it will end well. Tongue Grin Grin Grin

John
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—Pla
Sean
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2009, 01:44:31 PM »

I haven't heard the one about the bent axle.  For my edification, would you retell that tale?


Sure.  Here's how it happened:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2006/10/long-excruciating-day.html

There's a photo of the damage at the bottom of this post:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/06/shame-on-me-for-not-posting-any-photos.html

Here's where, having yet to fix the damage a full year later, the bent axle ate a set of tires:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/10/day-of-frustration.html

And here's where we discussed the ultimate resolution of this right here on the board:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=10848.0

and on our blog (with photos):
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2009/03/tax-axle-fixed.html

Ask, and ye shall receive (whether you want it or not!)...

-Sean
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« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2009, 10:30:44 AM »

I have at least one customer who has converted the ECM from DDECII to DDECIII.  Apparently DD sells the conversion parts.  I would expect that conversion would be less than $2K.  As I recall, the conversion parts are mostly wiring harness adapters.

The conversion does not buy you any additional functionality, but might buy you better ECM technology.

Just a thought
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« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2009, 10:50:20 AM »

Jim, on one of the upgrades I can not remember if  is the 1 to the 111 or what but you have to change the bull gear from a 16 tooth to 32 tooth on the DDEC     good luck
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