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Author Topic: Progressing well-  (Read 4580 times)
Brill-o
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« on: July 04, 2006, 09:01:43 PM »

Hey folks-
I believe I only a few hours off from start-up!

Jr--
I wish you were closer more than you know!
 N.C., huh? That's just a few hour hours from Va. How’s’ about (if she runs) I take up residence at your flat to finish her off?
I'll only stay a few months!
PLEASE DO TELL ME HOW TO DO THE JOB! That would be a tremendous help!

And it's quite hot here today as well--97 and very humid—approx 110 in the bus in the sun with the windows stuck shut and only the door for outside air-

Thanks for the offer in the pics prob', (you too, of course, Dallas!) but I'm giving it one more shot-
This is the last pic I took of it today and my little way of saying happy (belated) 4th.
This still should  mean something coming from a Brit!

I used one of the B/Bird batts' and this is the result.
Small, but significant-

More soon!

Cheers..
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2006, 03:08:44 PM »

Personally, I think the bus is a beauty! Wink  Whenever you get finished with it, it will be a real work of art.  One of these days, I want to restore an old coach to it's original and pristine condition.  Just for giggles.  Keep posting those pictures, I like looking!

Jimmy
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2006, 03:25:23 PM »

I think she's a beauty too!

When I had my 48 GMC transit, I always wanted to put her back into original shape. When I found, after pulling an 8,000 lb trailer, that her back was broken, I just didn't have the will to keep going on the job.
Now that you have your Brill, I can watch and envy you and all the neat stuff you'll be doing with her.

Keep going and showing!

Dallas
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2006, 03:27:01 PM »

Hey folks-
...This is the last pic I took of it today and my little way of saying happy (belated) 4th. ...
Brill-O, what is under that paint?  Steel or aluminum?  Man, I'd love to give you a hand with stripping it clean and make it ready for a sleek art-deco paint scheme.

Merlin
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2006, 04:44:52 PM »

I just want to hear that old Hall-Scott rumble.  You can't imagine how many years.....But I won't tell!

Bob
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2006, 05:00:49 PM »

I haven't posted any replies on your threads "cause I don't know nuttin' bout no Brills". But that don't mean I do not read these post. I sure would like to see that bus running. Bring it to one of our Bussin' rallies and it will be a feature coach.  Jack
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2006, 06:59:01 PM »

Hey there Bus-mates-

Thank you for the interest—and I have a few new curiosity seekers to boot!

Here’s an update and a couple of pics:

I could not get it to do anything with the fully charged batt’.
But, (with info from 46Brillbus) I found an outside starter button in the batt’ bay. It tried to crank,  then the starter just spun without engaging the bendix.

A friend came by and saw this and said the bus moved a little when I first tried it. It was in gear!
Apparently it will not engage the starter fully whilst in gear.
And it has an electric reverse!

Also, I was shocked to be able to see the ground straight through the engine once I had both the top and bottom plugs out! This thing is wild!

I cranked her again and she spun well (with the plugs out) and pushed out a good blow on the compression stroke.

I have yet to trace the no-spark condition, but have a few places I was instructed to inspect.

I think this old girl has just been resting—waiting for someone like me to come along. She wants to run—I can feel it.

It rained a good bit most of today, but I cleaned around the drivers area and reversed all the fuses to check if they were good (all were), and to see if it helped with connections. I now have a top front marker light working! To dance with this 60 year old it’s one little step at a time-

Gents:

I think I’ve figured out the pic thing, but a question-
Is the total pic post ( more than one) 128kb or each individual pic?
I was thinking I could load a pic or two and go back (like editing) and add more to the same post. Is that possible? Thank you for the help-

Merlin-

I think its aluminum, as there is no rust at all on the bod’. There is some rust “wash” from the thin side trim strip. There are a few small holes on one side near the bottom, but they look like maybe they corroded, but nothing bad at all and no rust there either.

NcBob-

I believe you will!

JackC—

Thank so much! What a great compliment! I hope it becomes what you think it could be.


More soon-


Cheers..
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Brill-o
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2006, 07:14:59 PM »

Here's a cpouple more-


The first is of the 12 wire distributor for a twin plug six!?!?

The second is of the rear with the boot closed. The "Charter service" sign is actually a window which is back-lighted by 4 bulbs in a diamond pattern! Brilliant!

Enjoy!
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2006, 08:17:22 PM »

Unfortunately I don't know Bo about a Brill....or Hall-Scott motor....HOWEVER...that never stopped me from offering advice, looks like you have a dual point/dual coil  distributor and a bunch of spark plugs (the coils are maybe the finned thingies hanging to the right side of the pix?).   If so, turn on the ignition and check the hot side of the coils for battery voltage.  If you find that the coils are hot with the master ig on, remove one of the coil-to-distributor primary leads...this will be one of the smaller wires.  Momentarily ground the lead and watch for spark from the coil tower by fixing the secondary coil lead within  1/4" of a ground for a spark test...(don't watch for a spark plug to fire since you don't know where the rotor button is aimed).   If you get spark, and only one coil will spark at a time while doing this, check the other one and verify that both coils are good.  If the coils spark when the dist lead (we're talking about the small primary leads here...not the fat secondary spark plug and coil wires), then the problem is in the distributor, and it'll probably only need points and condensors....or just points should get it running.  If you don't get spark when intermittantly grounding the distributor side of the primary lead terminal/lead, then the problem is either in the coils, or the coils are not being powered up.   Verify that the hot side of the coils have batt voltage...if not, fix that...or jump the coils to verify that the engine will run. 
If you need points for the dist, pull the points out and take them to your local NAPA and toss them on the counter and see what happens.   Tell'em its a....fork lift...anything but a Brill.  They won't have a clue! Maybe?  I believe the engine uses Delco components....hope so.   If the distributor is a Delco, the points probably set close to .012" to .014" when the breaker arm is on a high spot of the lobe.
You may be able to clean the breaker points with a point file or fine sandpaper sufficiently to get it running, but this will be short-lived as the hard surface will be removed using this method.  Still, it may serve to see how well the engine runs.  It will likely run on on set of plugs....to put it another way, you have dual ignition systems, and if one fails, the other would operate the engine...not as well as when both are working but it would idle OK.  Probably run fine on one system. 
The reason the engine wouldn't turn over when the bus was in gear is that the starter was trying to move the whole bus....which it may do under ideal conditions...be glad it didn't .  This habit is rough on starters and should be avoided.  Break something expensive doing that.  Block the bus good and leave it in neutral. 
I suppose I've  taken a simple subject and muddied it up real good!  Let me know if you have any questions regarding generic systems.  I can answer most of your ignition questions.   Pmail me if you wish. 
I should add that gasoline leaks and jumping wiring, or just dinking with wiring will cause fires...be sure that the drive axle is blocked so that the bus cannot move if it gets into gear once it starts.   Be very careful with gasoline engines...they will catch on fire and burn so fast!  Keep a good sized fire extinguisher handy when working on the engine.  Keep all your fuel line fittings either plugged, or properly connected.  I'd likely hook up a marine type portable fuel tank (6 gallon) to the fuel pump to assure that the fuel delivered is clean.   The bus tanks need to be drained, but not until your ready to clean and refill them.    Keep the portable out from under the bus.  Use an outboard fuel line and you'll have a built in primer.   Verify that the carbs aren't dripping fuel thru them.   Leave the air cleaners on the engine when trying to start it....this will avoid blowing lit fuel out of the carbs due to backfire.
Good luck and GITRDONE!  JR 
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2006, 03:37:55 AM »

Brill-o I love the look of your bus and it looks to be in pretty good shape,I have restored cars that looked alot worse when I started them,where are you in VA,I live in Va Beach for the time being,I lived in Covington about 25 years ago for awhile if you ever get down this way let me know and I would like to see your bus in person some day   Mike
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Brill-o
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2006, 09:35:37 AM »

Hello again, JR-

Thank you for the extensive info on the Hall-Scott start-up! You took a good amount of time gather up this info for me and I truly appreciate it!

I've been fiddling around and have spark to the distributor coils!
 "Luray" is going to live again--I can feel it!

And I’d like to thank MikeH8H for the kind words!
I’m sure once it’s up and running and I’ve have squared away the inside somewhat, I’ll be meeting several members in the flesh-

Mike- I live at the northern most tip of Va. In fact it’s the last state road in the state. My back yard (once you climb and cross the mountain) goes into W. VA.
I live in the woods! One of the best things about living here is no one bothers me about my vehicles—and I can park them anywhere I want on my property—on the porch if I had a care!

Right!
I’m so close to starting this jewel, I could just…shift!  Wink
I’ll need a second hand checking out a couple more things, so I might have to wait on a friend to get off work (about 3 hrs.)

In the mean time- between more debris cleaning—I’m doing laps around this coach with anticipation! Shocked

I can tell you- I got little sleep last night!
I visited chat (as I’ve done several times)-but no one was home. Cry

Who knows what my next post might relate, but I would like all the mems’ here to cross everything they can cross for me- it’s looking better by the hour!

I’ll be sure to keep everyone here up to date with the progress. Smiley

Until the next (hopefully) promising post-

Cheers..
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 09:40:50 AM by Brill-o » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2006, 05:17:35 PM »

Say post the serial number of your ACF IC-41 Brill.
I will tell you who it went to from the factory.
jlv
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2006, 06:16:57 PM »

Hello roadrunnrt-

Wow! That would be magic! Shocked

I was going to take a pic of the plate for you, but it’s too dark now and the plate (although cleaned won’t show well from a flash).

I can still take a pic if you want to see it-

Here’s the plate as it reads from left to right--top to bottom:

                    Coach Model- IC 41                  Engine Model-   190-2

                  Serial Number- IC41-941         Engine Number-  191  209

                                    ACF BRILL MOTORS COMPANY
                                           PHILADELPHIA PA.

I figured I’d add this, although it means nothing:

Mileage on the “Tach-o-graph” (speedometer) 108412

Thank you so much for this info, roadrunnrt, and thanks again to everyone who’s helping me through this- Smiley

Cheers..
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2006, 08:07:53 PM »

1947 ACF Brill IC-41-941
From ACF Brill to Queen City Coach Co.Charlotte N.C.
Fleet number Q-1103
Queen City Coach Company was part of the Trailways Bus system.
There were a total of 1375 ACF IC41's built from 1945-1950
Trailways and Greyhound Lines were big users of ACF equipment.
Some ACF Brills had Silversiding and some were not.
Greyhound Lines has a 1948 ACF IC-41 in their historical Fleet it was a Southeastern Greyhound Lines Coach.
ACF stands for American Car&Foundry.
IC-41 IC stands for intercity 41 passenger
jlv 

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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2006, 08:17:07 PM »

I forgot to say.
That I have been able to ride on the old Greyhound Lines ACF Brills back in the 40's and 50's.
My daddy was a Greyhound bus driver and it was fun to sit up in the front seat and watch him drive these old buses.
jlv
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« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2006, 11:30:13 PM »

Look at this folks!

http://www.angelfire.com/al/silverball/brill.jpg

jlv
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2006, 07:49:03 AM »

That bus really looks good (looking past the paint).  I know the Hall-Scotts were excellent gas engines, and were great workhorses, for their time.  While you might get it running, will you be able to afford the 2-4mpg?  Personally, I'd get a Cummins laydown NTC350 or a Detroit 6-71TA laydown lined up so you can do some real travelling without interruption because of an obsolete engine.  Hope you get the project going-will make a unique conversion.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2006, 08:17:04 AM »

That bus really looks good (looking past the paint).  I know the Hall-Scotts were excellent gas engines, and were great workhorses, for their time.  While you might get it running, will you be able to afford the 2-4mpg?  Personally, I'd get a Cummins laydown NTC350 or a Detroit 6-71TA laydown lined up so you can do some real travelling without interruption because of an obsolete engine.  Hope you get the project going-will make a unique conversion.  Good Luck, TomC

Hey Tom,
Better than those, since they'll be, or already are obsolete, put one of the little Volvo or Mercedes engines in there.
Or if the electronics are intimidating, how about a cummins ISB or a Detroit Series 50?
In my '36 Brill there was lots of room for an upright..... It had a straight 8 Buick motor in it.
My personal choice for that bus would be an 1170 Cat with a Eaton RTO 9610 driving a 3.73 differential. Put 22.5 rubber on it and you would have a real screamer on the road.

Of course, we're talking big money for those changes.

If the Hall-Scott doesn't work out try looking for a 6.9 IH (also was in the Ford as a Ford motor), drop an allison 4speed OD behind it and go with the current differential.

Optimally, I like the Hall-Scott. Low end torque, midrange acceleration, and the fuel mileage wasn't all that bad for them. 2-5mpg for a
stock engine. Shave the head, put in a single MSD ignition, up grade the carb., get an Offenheuser cam, ( they still make them).
You could probably double or even triple the fuel mileage with the right set up. I think, (I'm not positive), that the Hall Scott engine used a #1 or #2 bell housing as standard.
If that's true, the great engine for it would be the 6V53 to keep it in line with it's age. 2800 RPM, 220HP, close to 500'# torque, the rear end might not handle it, but that's an easy change out.

Now the bottom line is what HE wants from it.

Dallas
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2006, 03:09:04 PM »

Just in case you might be interested, there is a Brill chapter of FMCA

Len
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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2006, 08:21:14 PM »

Hello again-

I’m sorry for the belated reply, but I’ve been working on her the best part of the day, and had company after that.

Roadrunnert:

First of let me apologize for misspelling your screen name—I didn’t realize until I reread it!

Wow, what information! I would have never known!
And, the pic you posted was great- That is exactly what my bus used to look like—same colour scheme and all! That’s my best keeper pic’, yet
Thank you so much!

TomC & Dallas:

I’ll be making those types of decisions once she’s up and running-
I wouldn't mind another Detroit or a Cat. And I would like at least a 9-speed.
Money will be the biggest hurdle-

I don’t know about your mileage figures as our mem’ 46Brillbus is getting 9-10 with his Hall-Scott.

Dallas:
The series 50- Is that the Detroit series based on a Benz motor design?
 I was told D-C stopped production of the series 55. I thought the series 50 was based on that? Maybe they’re different for bus applications.

I drove a Freightliner with a series 50 in it. It was dog slow out the gate, but had great torque. 315hp I think, but don’t recall for sure.
I owned another Liner’ (98’) with the series 55. That had a peak of 465hp and 1600-ftlb of torque. A real bull. That baby would knock any hill flat!

Hello Len-

Thank you for the tip!

What is FMCA?

I contacted a one Bruce Paskvan as I was told he was the president of a Brill club. He was very helpful, but seemed a bit troubled that some people he was counting on, or expected contact from failed to follow through.
He supplied some good info, but I haven’t heard from him since.
I will have to write him again.

For the Bus update:

I have 4 rear lights, 1 front light, an oil light on the dash, two inside fans, and the fuel pump working. I have all the plugs cleaned and they all are capable of spark. The tank has been drained, and ready to clean.

The engine cranks well.

I ‘m left with a couple of electrical glitches, which are most likely, the cause of the no-fire condition. I had voltage to the distributor, but lost it to a bad ground, probably.
I’m diligently working on it and have direction.

Again, I must thank 46Brillbus for his  valuable time and support spent working with me on this (He has a manual). Thank you Sir!

I’ll be on it all day again tomorrow-

Updates when more results..


Cheers..
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2006, 10:58:32 PM »

Man-I don't think I've ever heard of a Hall-Scott getting much over 5mpg let alone pushing 10mpg?  (maybe he was being pushed by a 50mph or so tail wind).
The Series 50 is the 4 cylinder version of the 6 cylinder Series 60 that is still being used in trucks and buses today.  The Series 55 was a 12 liter Mercedes-Benz based engine that was dogged by head gasket problems. Detroit dropped the Series 55, went back to the drawing board with Mercedes-Benz and came back with a winner that is the 12.8 liter Mercedes-Benz Series 4000 that has up to 450hp and 1550lb/ft of torque.  It has 6 individual cylinder heads, external unit electronic injectors with high pressure lines to the cylinder, and a compression and turbo brake (they have a small 5th valve in the head that is hydraulically powered for the compression brake and the turbo has a sheath that goes over the turbine wheel that restricts the exhaust gas route that speeds up the turbine during engine braking to send alot more air into the engine to be compressed-hence over 550hp of braking),plus it only weighs in at 2150lb (about what a 6V-92TA weighs).  All that have used it loves the low end torque and the great fuel mileage.  Personally, I would much rather have the Mercedes-Benz Series 4000 in my bus than the huge Detroit Series 60.  And they are really close in power-and you'd have about 500lb less hanging out the end of the bus.  Just some info.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2006, 04:34:46 AM »


Hello Len-

Thank you for the tip!

What is FMCA?




Family Motor Coach Association   http://fmca.com/

The very first of the bus conversion groups, started in 1963, though now they are mainly commercial motor homes.

Well worth checking out.

Len


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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2006, 05:38:58 AM »

Man-I don't think I've ever heard of a Hall-Scott getting much over 5mpg let alone pushing 10mpg?  (maybe he was being pushed by a 50mph or so tail wind).
The Series 50 is the 4 cylinder version of the 6 cylinder Series 60 that is still being used in trucks and buses today.  The Series 55 was a 12 liter Mercedes-Benz based engine that was dogged by head gasket problems. Detroit dropped the Series 55, went back to the drawing board with Mercedes-Benz and came back with a winner that is the 12.8 liter Mercedes-Benz Series 4000 that has up to 450hp and 1550lb/ft of torque.  It has 6 individual cylinder heads, external unit electronic injectors with high pressure lines to the cylinder, and a compression and turbo brake (they have a small 5th valve in the head that is hydraulically powered for the compression brake and the turbo has a sheath that goes over the turbine wheel that restricts the exhaust gas route that speeds up the turbine during engine braking to send alot more air into the engine to be compressed-hence over 550hp of braking),plus it only weighs in at 2150lb (about what a 6V-92TA weighs).  All that have used it loves the low end torque and the great fuel mileage.  Personally, I would much rather have the Mercedes-Benz Series 4000 in my bus than the huge Detroit Series 60.  And they are really close in power-and you'd have about 500lb less hanging out the end of the bus.  Just some info.  Good Luck, TomC

Oops Tom,
I misspoke! I was looking at a Hercules engine manual instead of a Hall-Scott Manual. I'll have to figure out where the Hall-Scott book got to out of the notebook.
If I remember right, the Hall-Scott was a super low compression engine with something less than 6:1 commpression. Mostly because it could run on just about any grade of junk that got put into it.
If you raise the compression, change the timing and cam lift/duration, plus put in a hot spark and an updated carb, I'll bet you could significantly raise gas mileage of the old monster.

I would have mentioned the MBE4000 but I was wondering how the old girl would handle all that torque and horsepower. Would it be possible to over tax the frame and body with all that torque?

I picked the other engines because of size/weight/power ratios plus availability of parts and initial cost.
The Mercedes engine I was thinking of was the OM-352. 130HP, 269ftlbs of torque, plenty to handle the Brill. This engine has been used in everything from small delivery trucks to big earth moving equipment.

Still, just to dream, the MBE4000 with an Ultrashift behind it would make for one hot ride! Imagine the looks of all the SuperTrucks as it climbed Grapvine or Donner Shocked Shocked Grin Grin

Dallas
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 06:16:16 AM by Dallas » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2006, 06:51:26 AM »

TomC:

I can’t comment on the MPG of the H-S, but 46Brillbus (a most honest chap) had his engine highly reworked. As Dallas pointed out, this may have been the reason for the good mileage-

And yes, that was the engine I had—and the probs’ I’d experienced.
I was very meticulous with new engine break-in and maintenance, so my gasket(s) blew right around 100K. Supposedly, most went at 40-60K.

Detroit put out a TSB for the warranty repair, and mine was pretty much overhauled.

I’ll add this- but if it is wrong, (it shouldn’t be) go ahead and remove it.
My repair was done by “Western Branch” a Detroit diesel authorized repair center located in Springfield, Va..
They took 3 (!!) months- they would of taken longer if I hadn’t threatened with legal action. Angry
The day I went to pick it up, the batteries were dead, the rad’ was empty, and the rad clamps loose, plus It had an oil leak, the A/C didn’t work, and bent my steering link. Angry
I drove off and lost control of the truck not a ¼ mile from the shop.

 I was able to get it safely on the shoulder and walked back. Without going into anymore details about that, I’ll say it took another 2+ weeks for the steering repair. Angry

My point is- I came very close to going under from that.
A new truck with high monthly payments (which had to be made), and the truck sitting through the best part of the work season was almost a deathblow and I nearly lost my home. Sad
I would highly recommend that everyone steer clear of that establishment. A lesson learned by me- Angry Angry


Len:
Thanks for the link. I’ll check it out!

Dallas:
 I miss-spoke as well-
My engine developed 400HP peak. I got a best of 9MPG—extremely good for a Tri-axle dump.

An MBE 4000 would be super. What a dream!

And I dream a lot… Smiley


Cheers..



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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2006, 07:15:55 AM »

Brillo- you are correct...very little is stock on this engine. I know there has to be quite a few wondering how the old bus manages its mileage. It was balanced and blueprinted at the Hall-Scott factory, it has a modified carb, intake, non stock exhaust  and it has higher diff ratio than stock plus it is running the 9 speed Eaton-Fuller transmission.
The 10 mpg is the best I have ever been able to obtain and that was on flat land. It drops to around 6 in the high passes of Colorado. I do not drive it the way it was built as it was built to run across the Arizona and Nevada desert at higher speeds than I like...so I just amble along and get pretty decent mileage. If needed she will get up and run with the big dogs but I am in no hurry to get anywhere these days!
I do have a new Mallory ignition system in hand but have not started the install...having too much fun as Brillo brings his bus back to life!
Just take your time and enjoy the process!
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