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Author Topic: Need power or torque data for Detroit Diesel 8V71 !!  (Read 11489 times)
JimGnitecki
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« on: May 14, 2009, 05:33:59 PM »

Hi, I'm a new member with a 1979 Eagle conversion bus and a lot of plans!

But, first things first.

My bus has a Detroit Diesel 8V71 (2-stroke) engine, with Roots blower but NOT turbocharging. The bus dealer from whom I bought it recently said it is the "318" version, which means 318 crank horsepower (maybe a little optimistic Smiley ).

But, I need way more dtaa than that in order to do some engineering analysis. Its eems that this bus was originally a manual transmission model, into which an Allison 740 automatic was installed. I suspect the rear axle ratio was never changed, and it may not NEED changing, but I won't know until I get a power or torque curve for the engine, that shows either power or torque versus engine rpm.

I have looked in a lot of places for that graph or table, without success. I googled. I called Detroit Diesel, and I asked a few mechanics. Detorit Diesel was uninterested in looking for the data in their files, and no one else has the data readily available for an engine this old.

Anyone out there know where I can get the data, in either graph or tabular form?

I ahve found the gear ratio data for the Allison 740, have road and wind resistance data from a Caterpillar publication, and am seeking the rear axle ratio in a separate thread, but am sort of stuck on the power or torque data. Anyone out there have the right "connecitons" with Detroit Deisel or a dynamometer-equipped diesel shop to get the data?

Once I get the data, you will be amazed what I can do with it, and I promise to post the analysis results!

Jim Gnitecki
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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2009, 05:45:45 PM »

Jim, look under old 2 cycle brochures at www.powerlinecomponents.com they have some graphs also your Eagle will probably have a 3.73 rear gear and 272 hp    good luck with your Eagle just so you know Eagle owners have a board also www.eaglesinternational.net
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2009, 06:11:27 PM »

Jim,

Don Fairchild in Bakersfield CA is quite adapt with 8v71's. I'm sure he will see this and respond.

If not, I'll let him know you posed the question here, or ask him get in touch with you.

~Paul~
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2009, 06:34:43 PM »

Welcome to the insanity, it's always good to see another iggle owner that speels like me lol.
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2009, 07:02:05 PM »

Not a chart showing the curves, but a little info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_71#Popular_Horsepower_Ratings_.288V-71.29

Quote
Popular Horsepower Ratings (8V-71)
866 ft·lbf @ 1400 rpm 318 hp (237 kW) governed at 2100 rpm
990 ft·lbf @ 1400 rpm 305-350 hp governed at 2100 rpm (turbocharged)
1064 ft·lbf @ 1200 rpm 305-370 hp governed at 1800-2100 rpm (turbocharged/aftercooled)
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2009, 07:05:23 PM »

Jim, if you know the injector size we can give you a answer the 318 hp is actually a 302 HP.If you buy a series 71 manual it will have the HP and torque rating for the injector size and timing has graphs and charts     good luck
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 07:10:47 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2009, 07:11:54 PM »

Jim,
    The  torque peak for the "318" is at 1400 Rpm.  The "318" uses "advanced? injector timing to allow the use of larger injectors  (N65 s) while the typical bus engine uses " standard" injector timing which limits injector choices to the N60 or smaller (going larger makes lots of smoke).  The standard timed engines have a lower torque peak, 1200 RPM and a flatter torque curve which gives better performance with 3 and 4 speed transmissions typically found in buses.   You'd have to pull a valve cover and look for markings on injectors to verify that you do really have a 318.   With a 4 speed manual or automatic you are best off with the standard timed engines.  The 318 setup is best for trucks & a few buses with 10 or more gears.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
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JimGnitecki
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2009, 07:22:19 PM »

Wow!!

You guys are GREAT!

That Powerline Components website has not only all the variaitons of power curves for all versions of the 8V71 AND 8v92, but also has power and torque curves  for the 8V71 with attached torque converter (the "fan to flywheel" versions of the engines)! Furthermore, it actually includes the fuel consumption per brake horsepower produced (pretty dramatic differences between the early 8V71s and the "fuel squeezer" 8V71 versions and the 8v92s on fuel consumption!)

All this data, coupled with the rear axle ratio information I have posted about separately on this forum, and coupled also with the Caterpillar "Understanding Coach / RV performance" booklet I already have, equips me to do stuff like:

- Model the acceleration and cruising performance of the bus in my computer modleing software
- Predict the best speeds under different road and wind conditions for best fuel mileage
- Predict the top speeds with different gearing and tire sizes
- etc, etc

and share that here over the next few weeks.

What a treasure trove of data!

THANK-YOU ALL!! Smiley

Jim G
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RJ
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 08:48:05 PM »

Jim -

You've got to pull one of the valve covers on your 8V71 to find out what injectors are in there.  Without that info, well, you're just guessing.  Or playing!

If it's a stock coach engine, there's a 99% chance it has either N60 or C60 injectors.

Below is the original power & torque graph for the 8V71 coach engine equipped with N60 injectors as installed in the PD4106.   This was the FIRST bus application, in 1961, back when Detroit Diesel was still known as GM Diesel.  Peak HP is 272 at 2000 rpm, and peak torque is 770 ft lbs at 1200 rpm.  Peak efficiency is in the 1500 rpm range.

Originally, GM governed coach engines at 1650 rpm, but that was quickly bumped up to 2100, which has been the recommend max right up until today.  "Fire Apparatus" was one of the rare applications where 2500 rpm was allowed.  The more you tweak the 2-stroke over the 2100 recommended max, the shorter the overall engine life, which is sort of a moot point in an RV.

FYI, the V-drive manual gearbox PD4106 was geared to run 60 mph at 1650 rpm with tires that turn 495 revs/mile.  The overall final drive ratio is 3.333, factoring the rear axle ratio (4.125:1) times the bevel gear ratio (0.808).  Transmission ratios are First 4.32:1, Second 2.50:1, Third 1.50:1, and Fourth 1.00:1. 

I think if you look at the HT-740's ratios, you'll find them very similar to the manual box above.

Since a lot of what you want to do with your computer modeling software has been hashed over and over again on this forum and on BNO, some searching thru the archives will yield lots more data to play with.

And FYI, a stock 8V71 in a Model 5 Eagle equipped with an HT-740 and the OEM 3.73 axle will give you 5.5 - 6.5 mph consistently, uphill & down, w/ or w/o headwinds.  Sometimes seven mpg downhill with a tailwind.  Just like the MCI & Prevost guys. 

Remember that wind resistance goes up by the cube of the speed, and you're basically pushing a vehicle with the aerodynamics of a brick thru that wall of air. . .

As for acceleration, well, let's just say pray for downhill freeway on-ramps!  Especially if your  8V's got a few hundred thousand on it.  Transit buses will clean your clock 0-30, btw, but you'll pull away once they run out of rpm at 57 mph.

One more thing, or rather, two more things.  So you don't have to re-invent the wheel, here are a couple of calculators to play with:

Mallie's: http://www.cwis.net/~mallie/page12.html

Daris: http://www.thebouthilliers.com/4106    Click on the "MPH Calculator" in the LH menu.

That said, here's the "original" 8V71 coach power & torque graph for you.

FWIW & HTH. . .


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RJ Long
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 09:21:57 PM »

What are they rated at in the fire trucks that govern at 2500?
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RJ
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 09:31:00 PM »



What are they rated at in the fire trucks that govern at 2500?




Never seen a graph for fire apparatus settings.  Most hush-hush, just like the military 8Vs. . .

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RJ Long
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 09:32:32 PM »

The HP line is beginning to flatten in RJ's graph, I expect that it will flatten more quickly above 2100.

At 2500, I'd guess it will be flattening still somewhere below the top line.

Also note that the torque will keep dropping, the higher the rpm, so more spin just gives you a longer run at the hill?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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JimGnitecki
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2009, 04:40:03 AM »

Jim -

Transmission ratios are First 4.32:1, Second 2.50:1, Third 1.50:1, and Fourth 1.00:1. 

I think if you look at the HT-740's ratios, you'll find them very similar to the manual box above.

. . .

And FYI, a stock 8V71 in a Model 5 Eagle equipped with an HT-740 and the OEM 3.73 axle will give you 5.5 - 6.5 mph consistently, uphill & down, w/ or w/o headwinds.  Sometimes seven mpg downhill with a tailwind.  Just like the MCI & Prevost guys. 

Remember that wind resistance goes up by the cube of the speed, and you're basically pushing a vehicle with the aerodynamics of a brick thru that wall of air. . .



The HT740 ratios are indeed close, but different enough to take into account:
1st   3.69 versus 4.32
2nd   2.02 versus 2.50
3rd   1.38 versus 1.50
4th   1.00 same

Your 5.5 to 6.5 mpg prediction is excellent as it turns out. On the maiden 1200 mile trip from where I bought the bus (Lakeland, FL) to my home in Austin, Texas, I checked the fuel mileage at EVERY fuel stop, and it was EXACTLY 5.0 mpg EVERY time, regardless of wind and terrain, and even after the air filter began to exhibit severe air restriction symptomns the last 75 miles or so. That sounds at first lower than your 5.5 to 6.5 mpg prediciton, BUT that is because:

1. I ran the generator the whole time (no bus air, so ran the basement air), plus overnight both nights, and
2. I averaged 73 mph on the interstate, which certainly uses more fuel than I would at 60 mph!

Jim Gnitecki
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2009, 07:09:10 AM »

If you're looking at the automotive brochures, you have to give some latitude to advertising.  For instance, the torque and rpm on the N65 8V-71N is listed as 866lb/ft @ 1400rpm.  Yet the industrial version with the same injectors is 800 @ 1600rpm-personally will go with the industrial ratings.

On an up dating issue-it's amazing what technology will do.  Detroit Diesel's new DD16 that will be coming out only as a 2010 engine equipped with Urea injection in the exhaust will be rated up to 600hp and 2050lb/ft torque weighing around 2950lbs.  As compared to Detroits last 12V-71TA with 80 injectors at 600hp with 1800lb/ft torque weighing around 3550lbs!  What's amazing is the new DD16 will do this getting close to twice the fuel mileage and be as close to a green clean engine as technology will allow today.

The new ratings for Detroit Diesels new engines will be DD13 up to 500hp and 1650lb/ft torque, DD15 up to 560hp and 1850lb/ft torque, and the for mentioned DD16.  These are all 2010 ratings for clean Diesel engines.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2009, 07:00:19 PM »

If memory serves, (always suspect!)  the fire service N versions had advanced timing, N90 injectors and the 8V71N was rated @ 350 hp @ 2300 and 900 torque @1600 and the 671N was rated at 262 hp and 676 ft lbs.

The American LaFrance ladder truck I drove had the governor set at a whopping 2550 rpm, giving the short geared vehicle a top speed of about 65 mph.  They sounded sooss cool winding thru the T905M tranny.  HB of CJ
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JimGnitecki
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 07:15:42 PM »

The fire truck having a higher governor speed seems reasonable to me. Since a fire truck puts on relatively few miles compared to either a bus or a Class 8 semi, the reduced engine life would be inconsequential.

I suspect that for most motorhome owenrs the same logic applies. I personally will be surprised if I average over 5000 miles per year, so a reduced lifetime for the overengineered million mile engine is not an actual "problem".

My engine was rebuilt during the 1990s, and has only 29,000 mile since then. 2500 rpm governor speed would sound just fine to me. How costly is it to make such a change to the governor speed?

Jim Gnitecki
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 07:55:42 PM »

Simple adjustment.  Gotta have the tool.  I just paid $281 to Bert at Stewart and Stevenson in El Paso, Texas and watched him make the adjustment to 2514 rpm without load. The hardest part was he had to hand grind 8 shoulders on the socket by hand (without any indexing) to accept an end wrench on the socket barrel.  He couldn't get the socket drive in because of clearance issues with the air ram.  Bert is one of the last of the great 2 stroke wrenches.  Highly recommended.  And.... he really likes to work on them!

dg
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2009, 09:25:07 AM »


Your 5.5 to 6.5 mpg prediction is excellent as it turns out.



It should be - I spent 25 years in the bus industry!

 Wink
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RJ Long
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 08:00:03 AM »

Jim,
    The  torque peak for the "318" is at 1400 Rpm.  The "318" uses "advanced? injector timing to allow the use of larger injectors  (N65 s) while the typical bus engine uses " standard" injector timing which limits injector choices to the N60 or smaller (going larger makes lots of smoke).  The standard timed engines have a lower torque peak, 1200 RPM and a flatter torque curve which gives better performance with 3 and 4 speed transmissions typically found in buses.   You'd have to pull a valve cover and look for markings on injectors to verify that you do really have a 318.   With a 4 speed manual or automatic you are best off with the standard timed engines.  The 318 setup is best for trucks & a few buses with 10 or more gears.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120

Jerry: The records I received with the bus are VERY meticulous, as it turns out. They include an invoice from late July 2008 that shows engine  tuning work was done after the previous owner complained of smoke and reduced power. The parts list for repair parts provided at that time includes new fuel filters and new "N65" injectors. The N65 injectors are consistent with the bus dealer's description of the engine as a"318".

There is also other corroborating evidence that the injectors had to have been changed from the original 272 hp ones: without trying anything as foolish as a top speed run in a 34,180 pound bus, I HAVE seen more than 85 mph on the speedo on level highways with no tailwind, when I have failed to watch my speed or have passed slower vehicles. I HAVE checked the speedo for consistency with Interstate mile markers over 5 mile distances, and while there is a 2mph or so error at 73 mph, it's no larger than that.

Caterpillar, in its booklet "Understanding Coach/RV Performance", shows that a 34,000 pound coach (mine weighs 34,180) requires 259 hp NET AT THE WHEELS at just 80 mph, AFTER deducting the power lost to the automatic transmission and axle, and the power to turn the belt-driven fan, the alternator, and any other engine accessories. The same graph shows you need about 305 NET hp at the wheels to hit 85 mph.

That 85 mph repeatedly observed speed is inconsistent with the 272 hp original engine rating, but is fully consistent with a 318 being revved to 2500 rpm or thereabouts (with 3.73 non-overdrive gearing and 478 rev/mile tires), where its power output should hit about 338 hp, despite the falling torque, assuming the injectors don't fall flat on their faces at that rpm.

I'm right now doing some fuel mielage calculaitons that are proving interesting, and I will post those as soon as I have satisfied myself pf their accuracy.

Jim G
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 08:02:09 AM by JimGnitecki » Logged
JimGnitecki
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2009, 08:46:29 AM »

Jim, if you know the injector size we can give you a answer the 318 hp is actually a 302 HP.If you buy a series 71 manual it will have the HP and torque rating for the injector size and timing has graphs and charts     good luck

The Detroit Diesel borchure for the 318 hp 8V71 clarifies the power measurement, and why a "318" sometimes is descirbed as a "302" or "304".

It turns out that the 318 hp rating is obtained using the SAE "STD J607" method which assumes ambient conditions of 60 degrees F, 29.92" barometric pressure, and zero percent humifity.

The 302 or 304 rating is obtained by using a modified (old) version of the SAE "SAE" method, which assumes ambient conditions of 85 degrees F, 29.00" barometric pressure, and zero percent humidity.

Modern cars and trucks are emasured by the factories using a more current version of the "SAE" method ("J1349"), which assumes 77 degrees F, 29.235" barometric pressure, and zero percent humidity.

The significance of the changes in ambient conditions is that:
- Higher temperature reduces engine power (lower air density - fewer oxygen molecules per cubic foot)
- Higher barometric pressure increases engine power (higher air density - more oxygewn molecules per cubic foot)
- Presence of humidity reduces engine power (the water vapor displaces pure oxygen, and has less oxygen than oxygen molecules - water vapor has ONE oxygen atom per molecule, while oxygen has TWO oxygen atoms epr molecule)

Thus, the STD J607 method ends up delievring results that are generaslly higher than the "SAE" methods, with the difference depending upon the actual conditions at the time of the test before "correction" to either of the standards. In general, the STD J607 teasting yields results UP to 4% or rarely even up to 5% higher than the SAE methods, BUT the difference does vary depending upon the actual conditions before correction by the dyno operator.

I have found over years of computer modleing and actual road testing that the STD J607 method is the one used by almost all aftermarket service and dyno shops, because it reports higher numbers which make owners feel better, makes the dyno tuners look better, and provides better bragging rights.

However, since most of the actual experimental tesitng is also done using STD J607 based data, it is also the right one to use for modeling, if you want consistent results.

Also, the Detroit Diesel engines (and many other diesel engines used commercially) are NOT limited in their power output by the amount of air and fuel being ingested by the engine, but rather by the governors. You can get much more than 318 hp out of a 318 if you spin it faster (higher rpm) than the 2100 rpm it is rated at and governed to by the factory. However, you encounter some deterrents:

1. You will reduce the life of the engine
2. You enable an unwise or non-alert vehicle driver to much more easily exceed the heat dissipation capabilites of the engine and its cooling system, and thus risk engine destruction
3. You enable an unwise driver to hit vehicle speeds that are inappropriate for the conditions, against the law, wasteful of fuel, or counter to his or her employer's policies.

All 3 of these are very important to commercial owners, but are relatively far less applicable to motorhome owners. Motrohome owners will put on so few miles compared to buses or Class 8 trucks (5000 to 15,000 miles per year versus 100,000 miles per year) that the reduced life is meaningless. A motorhome owner may willingly assume the repsonsibilities for both heat monitoring and safety, where a comemrcial owenr would not generally trust a driver to be responsible if the driver's income or work hours required depend on his or her road speed.

So, riaisng the governor speed, and consequentialy the power output, of the engine, maight be perfectly acceptable and even desirable or advisable for a motorhome owner (once the vehicle is outside of manufacturer's warranty, which msot of our buses are Smiley ). This is in fact probably why fire truck governors are set higher - the annual mileage is low AND the drivers are by definition EXCEPTIONALLY careful, repsonsible, and alert - and the extra power and speed are beneficial to the public.

There are 4 things I can think of to watch out for:

1. the injectors can run out of capacity, depending upon high MUCH you raise the governor speed: A diesel engine has no throttle plate, so it will always get 100% of the air it can ingest, so the power produced is a function of how much fuel you add via the injectors, which are controlled by your right foot. If you have the injectors delivering 100% of their capability at say 2300 rpm, there is no point in trying to spin the engine any faster, as you are unable to add any more of the ingredient needed for more power: more fuel. I have no idea how a mechanic determines this in actual tuning.

2. The engine may not be able to ingest enough air to make good use of the extra fuel: If you are ALREADY getting enough fuel for the air you are able to ingest, or a bit too much (evidenced by black smoke), adding more fuel will just add more black smoke. Again, I don't know how a mechanic determines this otuside of a road test or dyno.

3. Don't go too crazy on rpm: The Detroit Diesels, and I assume also the Cat and Cummins engines, are designed for low rpm operation compared to the engines in a car, and have both long strokes and very heavy reciprocating parts. As you increase the rp, some of the forces beign generated are increasing at the square or cube of the change in rpm! At some point, you go beyond simply reducing engine life to making engine life REALLY short! Again, I have no idea what rpm range that sort of destruciton starts to occur.

4. Watch the engine temperature: As stated earlier, making more power produces more heat, and you need to watch to ensure that the heat is beign efefctively shed by the engine. If it starts to increase in temperature towards its upper approved limit (supposedly about 210 degrees on a Detroit Diesel 8V71), you need to BACK OFF or you will hurt or destroy the engine.

Jim G
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 08:49:39 AM by JimGnitecki » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2009, 04:49:08 PM »

Jim, you do know that all of this engineering info has been done for you by Detroit, and is available in a number of places on the internet free for the reading?

Just plug in the parts and settings you desire, no more analysis required, as you are attempting to redo what a building full of engineers did over the course of a 60+ year manufacturing run.

But, the fun is in the journey, not the destination?

What did Caterpillar include in their calculations for aerodynamics? Effective frontal area quite different for different models of coaches...

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 04:54:14 PM »

Caterpillar assumed 90 sq ft of frontal area and a coefficient of drag = 0.60.


WHERE specifically on  the Internet is this sort of info present? I haven't found much of it yet, and am eager to!

Jim G
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 06:09:39 PM »

ok, folks, wade in with your favorite links.

tejas coach is a nice place, where else?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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