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Author Topic: drill bits  (Read 4543 times)
bergdoll
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« on: July 05, 2006, 07:16:05 PM »

got my air problem taken care of & am reframing/skinning & i must have got the worst drill bits on the planet? HOME DEPOT SUCKS! the de walt center points seem to work for a while, but i can't sharpen them. the blue mol's really suck, i had 1 snap in half on the 2nd hole! & the harbor freight won't even drill a hole from the start, once it hits the mild steel!
i've got about 2,000 holes to drill for my 1/4" rivets & i need some good drill bits...i do understand that i need quite a few & i have the "drill doctor" bit sharpener (118 degree) that seems to put a point on them but it does not seem to last. i am not drilling at that high of speed. any info/help/suggestions out there? please only reply if you know about this.
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« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 07:41:55 PM by bergdoll » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2006, 09:16:58 PM »

bergdoll,

First, Buy your drill bits from McMaster and Carr, go online and do a search, you'll find them. you will have your bits the next day!!!

Second, When drilling hard metals, try and stop every 3 seconds and you will see how much faster you can drill the hole.

I can personally tell you I have drilled 270 holes, through 22 ga. stainless, with the same 3/16" bit. [without sharpening]

Yes, on my bus!!

Hope this Helps
Nick-
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2006, 09:25:53 PM »

Bosch
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2006, 09:45:52 PM »

If drilling SS go slowly and use lubricant..bits will last a lot longer...from experience
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2006, 10:18:21 PM »

Grainger is also a good source. I use cobalt bits at work to drill through hardened piano hinges. I think you would get good service from them. Do not overheat the bit! Keeping it cool by using a slower speed or a lubricant will make them last a long time.
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2006, 02:58:01 AM »

bergdoll   I have drilled 2800+1/4 holes in my bus and riveted I used everything from the $2.50 blu mold to the $7.00 cobalts and found as long as I drilled slow and steady pressure it went fine,I did end up buying a larger quanity from mcmaster carr but they did not do any better or worse,I burnt up a lot of bits before I got used to it and then no problem,on another note the 1/4 air rivet gun from harbor freight for under $100 has installed 2800+ shave head and mono bolt rivets with no problem just make sure to add a few drops of air tool oil every few hundred rivets or so,hope this helps,fyi FSI rivets that advertise in bus conv mag are about half the price of any one else I found and I only found that after my first 2000 rivets saved almost $280 on my last 1000 rivets hope this helps Mike
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2006, 04:49:50 AM »

I put over 2500 rivets into my bus. I hand sharpened my bits, and learned to put a split point on with a 6" bench grinder. I've since purchased a drill doctor that has selectable angle (118* and I think 123*) and will do split points. It's way better than my hand sharpening. The only thing I don't like about it is trying to sharpen short bits (e.g. broken bits).

If your drill doctor will do split points, use it.

I used mostly Vermont American bits from Menard's. I think I had something from Home Depot, also, but can't recall the brand.
Standard bits. Not Cobalt or TIN. Just good quality high speed steel bits. Use even pressure (not heavy pressure) and relax every 3 seconds or so to break and clear chips.
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2006, 05:01:12 AM »

Cobalt bits are harder, but break much easier.  I use the Titanium-Nitrile. I foiund the key to drilling in SS is to use a very slow drill speed and stop often. If you use a fast drill speed for even a few seconds, the drill bit gets very hot and the SS hardens making it even more difficult to drill after you throw away the drill bit you just ruined. I use firm, not hard, pressure on my cordless drill (has a slower speed than my corded drills). I squeeze the trigger, then almost immediately release the trigger. when the drill stops, pull the trigger again, then almost immediately release, etc. This keeps the bit and the SS from getting hot. I also use a cutting/tapping oil.  YMMV  Hope this helps, Jack
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2006, 05:13:47 AM »

I would highly recommend you go to a local supplier and purchase a can of RapidTap. Although the name indicates it is for tapping, I found that it significantly speeds up drilling holes also. I used to buy it in one gallon cans because we did so much drilling and tapping. Almost eliminated breaking of drills and taps and these items lasted much longer.

One advantage of this product is that it evaporates rapidly and leaves no oily film. Although most of our drilling was in the 10/32 screw size, up to 1/4 inch, it also worked like magic while drilling 3/4 inch and larger holes in steel beams.

Unfortunately I do not own any stock in the company, but I can guarantee that you will be happy with it.

Richard
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2006, 08:30:04 AM »

I too, like Jack Conrad, found the start and stop method of drilling in stainless works very well.  way faster tahn drilling a constant slow speed.  way faster than drilling at a ligher rpm as Jack described.  I used this method for 4" holes and they cut qucikly.  I don't want to say how many drills and hole saws I went through before I discovered this method.
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2006, 05:43:25 PM »

Home Depot/Lowes/Harbor frieght bits are for drilling soft wood. Mcmaster Carr, Grangers, are good choices for buying bits. Tin are good for general metal drilling, Cobalt are best for stainless steel.  As mentioned slow or start and stop is best. If you try to drill at a high speed you are grinding away the metal and not cutting it, getting the drill bit too hot and burning it. The metal should be coming out in a "string" not little tiny chips. A lubricant is a must, there are many out there, Drill Chill is one, there are many available, do not use WD40 it will help, but is like washing your clothes with shampoo, just not the right product.
 I have never been able to sharpen a bit by hand, I bought a Drill Doctor it has paid for itself. When I was doing my roof raise, I carried 4 drill bits with me, replaced them as they dulled, and then stopped and sharpened all of them at the same time.
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2006, 07:35:10 PM »

Bergdog,
I hope you will not mind me putting in my 2 cents here also.  I have been drilling holes for quite some time, in some cases right into welded areas and you know what a bummer that can be.  The product I use now in place of Rapidtap is "Westlube".  It is special for SS & very hard metals and I swear by it.  Order one bottle of it to try out, you will see it is $$ well spent. 

Go to www.westlandproducts.com, you can call them and order right over the phone to try out this product.  You will get many, many holes per drill if you lube the drill before the use on each hole.  Just dip the drill bit in the stuff and turn it on, you will be amazed.  If it starts to slow up drilling, dip it again.  In SS use your drill in half speed if not less,  SS is a bummer no matter what but very possible with this stuff. 

Hope this helps.

Gary
 
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2006, 07:37:12 PM »

Sorry, I meant to address my previous post reply to "Bergdoll" and not Bergdog!!  DAhhhhh 
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2006, 08:22:31 PM »

Gary, you have the capability of going in and modifying your message very easily. I typically have to go back a couple of times to try and correct grammatical errors or spelling errors. Course I am just a dumb redneck hillbilly so I make lots of them. LOL
Richard


Sorry, I meant to address my previous post reply to "Bergdoll" and not Bergdog!!  DAhhhhh 
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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2006, 09:18:06 PM »

Use cobalt split-point bits.  I got mine from W.W. Grainger.  Use a cutting oil that is compatible with the material you're drilling.  I got a half-gallon of metal-cutting oil from a local screw-machine company.  You could also contact a machine shop in your area.

Keep the bits COOL!  I used a small container for the oil and kept it close to the ladder (a hanger of some sort is helpful).  Dip the tip of the bit into the oil and  drill.  When smokes starts to curl out of the hole, stop, dip again and continue.  I got a dozen 3/16" bits and drilled many many hundreds of holes before taking them to a bit sharpening service to have them resharpened.

Clarke
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2006, 08:31:18 AM »

hard t find good bits and when you do they dont stay that way, however when i went to the woodworking show a company called maddog tools has the bits , they are like 150.00 a set and probly around 14 or so bits, they are life time quaranteed, the put a 1/8 driil bit in and told me to try to break it, i bent it over 90 degees while into a peice of hard steel and could not , they reall work, they run em into concrete then into hard steel and they go ,never seen anything like it. if you ever breal one or it become dull they will replace it at no cost. go to the internet and look for Mad dog Tools
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rwc
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2006, 06:07:14 AM »

I did a Google for Mad Dog Tools, Mad Dog drill bits and came up empty. Do you have a web site for them? Please post if you do I am keeping a file of resource places for future use. Thanks. Rod
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2006, 12:09:46 PM »

I have found that by using self tapping screws they do a better job.  What I do is use the self tapping screw and then go back if need be with a drill bit.  Self tapping screws are cheap.  I have used them on a lot of projects, not for rivetts, but it will be the same thing.
Works for me
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2006, 07:44:04 AM »

sorry i made a mistake, it is bad dog tools:

 www.baddogtools.com

again sorry.
Frank Allen
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Frank, I corrected the link so it would open. You had a comma instead of a dot.
Richard
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littlehouse
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2006, 04:03:46 PM »

O K where do you go to buy this drill doc.  in the south seattle area, what store or web cite. because i really need one or ten
or what ever.THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT INFO.
ray with the littlehouse
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 04:19:51 PM by littlehouse » Logged

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Dallas
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2006, 04:19:25 PM »

Home Depot, Lowes, Menards, HQ,. Any of the larger box stores.
DO NOT BUY THE Smaller one, buy the largest you can possibly afford.

I've had 2,  The 350 and the 750. I sold both with lots of misgivings.

I just bought an XPK that makes split points, does the majority of bits up to 1/2" including masonry. It also allows you to vary the angle of the cut to grind from 118° to 135° that really helps with finding the right angle to cut dofferent metals.

Good Luck,

Dallas
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2006, 04:22:44 PM »

Dallas
thanks alot! i'm out the door.

ray with the littlehouse
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2006, 05:50:47 PM »

I am guessing that these drill bits are in the same category as the salad makers at the shows. I follow two machinist's bulletin boards and no one has ever mentioned them when answering queries on drill bits. I have never heard of any kind of metal soft enough to bend 90* and be hard enough to cut steel.  The only bits that will cut both concrete and steel are carbide tipped bits that you can buy as masonary bits cheaply in any hardware store. Even those need to ground to different angles with different relief for the different materials.

Lots of cheap (.20/each) import bits from machine tool suppliers will cut fine and last a long time if you have the right speed, the right pressure, the correct size of pilot hole, and the correct lubricant. Hard steel is almost impossible to dril with a portable drill whereas leaded steel is like drilling aluminulm and you can't tell the difference by looking at it. When the demonstrators drill holes in old spring leaves, you don't know if it has been annealed and is very easy to drill.

For the average non professional, a medium quality ($1.25/each for 1/4")  from a brand name company will be adequate. Learn how to sharpen them freehand and if you are working on a bus, buy a dozen of the common small sizes. My experience with hardware store bits is that they are low quality imports sold at high price, when stuck to a piece of cardboard and plastic wrapped.

For my shop, I buy all the fractional sizes up to 1/4" by the package (10 or 12) as well as the number and letter sizes that are tap drill, machine screw clearance, or rivet size. When drilling holes in MCI Z bar framing I broke more bits than any other time in my life. If you can't stop immediately when the bit breaks through, it hits the material behind at an angle and promptly breaks the end of the bit. (This is where I should have used those bits that will bend 90*!)
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2006, 06:17:01 PM »

Way back, in my younger years I was trained as a Tool & Die maker.  I didn't like working indoors let alone all the dust and mess...but I did enjoy the machine work.  I learned early on how to sharpen a drill bit...anything from 1/4" to 2 1/2 inch.  And spent some time helping the guy who sharpened the end mills (cutter grinder)...now there's a whole new world in cutting geometry.

Since my poor old tired eyes are not as good as they used to be....sharpening drill bits became a chore.  I bought a Drill Doctor and since then...it's a cinch.

But too, I bought some WestLube....talk about a whole new world of revelation!  That's the greatest thing since sliced bread!

You can drill and tap S/S (the toughest thing since my ex-wife) and if you drill slowly...like cutting through butter with a hot knife!

FWIW,

Bob
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2006, 09:16:19 PM »

tyler tx
i was using a cheap  1/8 in drill and it bent and broke , went right thru my thumb nail and finger.

jlaney
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2006, 07:18:09 AM »

Stan, seems that we are clashing a lot, i was passing along what i observed at the show, as always just trying to help out , i dont have any of these bits but i did try to and could not break the little 1/8 bit, it also went through a head of a hammer with no lube in a heartbeat, this after drilling through a concrete block, Sorry ill try to stay silent in the future
Frank Allen
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2006, 11:52:44 AM »

Frank: I certainly didn't mean any offence. I have just seen too many marvels of the age that never amount to anything being sold at shows. I was with a friend of mine who bought a set of bits that were demonstrated in a similar fashion. They were pretty good bits compared to the hardware store variety. They were a TIN coated split point and maybe even cobalt which are available for less than half of the show price at any machine tool dealer. Within a month, he had broken all of the smaller sizes and confirmed that they were not better than what he had previously. He was a diesel mechanic so he had quite a bit of experience with drill bits.

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