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Author Topic: Goodyear Tires  (Read 6472 times)
Sean
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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2009, 09:11:44 AM »

Could you give your thoughts on all position tires vs dedicated drive and steers.


For a bus that never (or rarely) leaves the pavement and does not spend any time in snow and ice, I would choose all-position "rib" tires with a closed shoulder, for better wear and fuel mileage.  This gives you the ability to rotate tires all the way around, which lets you even out the wear -- steer and tag tires will tend to wear on the shoulders, and drivers tend to wear in the center, so moving the steers to the drivers and vice-versa really helps.  Most of the commercial bus companies I have spoken with rotate this way, and all use all-position rib tires all the way around.

I personally use open-shoulder, block-tread traction tires on my drivers, and closed-shoulder rib tires on the steer and tag axles.  We spend enough time off road that we really appreciate the extra loose-surface traction these provide, and, while I can't prove it, I am fairly confident they've saved us a tow or two over the years.  The price I pay is increased wear, slightly reduced fuel mileage, and increased noise.  I got four years and 100,000 miles out of my last set (Bridgestone M711 in 12R22.5), which isn't bad.  I can't tell you the fuel mileage impact -- it's really too small for me to have noticed on my meager instrumentation.  The noise is really just a "hum" up in the cockpit -- I suspect it might bother us more if we rode right above those wheels, instead of 20' forward of them.

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You stated above that you are running Firestones. May I ask what model firestones you are running?


I used to run Bridgestone R250F rib tires on the non-drive axles, but since my bus has shown a tendency to eat tires, I switched to the cheaper Firestone FS560 the last time I changed.  In between I briefly flirted with Goodyear 670RV in the larger 315/80R22.5 size, which was like flushing money down the toilet.

Finding high speed traction tires in my size is something of a challenge, and I really like having the M+S rating, so I stuck with the Bridgestone M711 on my last driver change.  My drive axle turns out to be slightly bowed, so I'm going to have to start rotating the outer duals to the inners, which will require dismounting and re-mounting, since I have steel inner wheels.

I should point out that I am generally brand-agnostic when it comes to tires.  I buy based on tread pattern, load and speed ratings, availability, and price in that order.  I would be just as happy with Goodyears or Toyos or Continentals, if I could get them in the styles I want at a good price when I need them.  So far, Bridgestone/Firestone has just proven easier to acquire at the random times and places when we need tires.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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paul102a3
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« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2009, 07:08:12 AM »

I thought I would share my tire buying experience in hopes that it may help others.

After a ton of phone calls I finally found a tire place in Tampa, FL that had some fairly reasonable tire prices. I needed to replace 4 drive tires and one steer. I know you are supposed to replace the steers as a pair but I had just purchased a new tire a few weeks ago so I only need one new steer to make a matched pair.

I chose to go with Firestone FS560+ for the drives and I needed a single Goodyear G149 to match the other one I had for the steers.

Prices are as follows; FS560 were 369.42 plus 36.76 FET and the Goodyear was 391.43 plus 36.76 FET.

Mounting, balancing, and new valve stems for 6 wheels/tires was an additional 175.00. There were 6 mount/dismounts as I had to move one tire to another rim.

I thought the price of 391.43 on the Goodyear was especially good as I had paid 640.00 a few weeks ago and had quotes of 605 to 615 from other Goodyear shops for a matching one.

I did check the date codes on the tires (another pearl of wisdom from the board) before they mounted the tires and they were all new.

If someone looks closely at my bus, it now looks a little funny. I have Goodyears on the steers, Firestones on the drives and Triangles on the tag. On the positive side, the oldest tires are the tags at two years and 4,000 miles so I hope no more tire problems as we start out in a few weeks on our trip to Nova Scotia and back down the East coast.

I was real happy with the shop. They took a lot of time to jack the bus correctly and pointed out little things here and there while the wheels were off. The service manager came out a number of times to make sure things were going well and they gave me a tool to remove/install the valve insert as well as a locking air chuck.

I spoke with the manager about tire pressures and his recommendation was to keep the tires between 110 and 115 cold. I mentioned that many on this board suggest having each axle weighed and then setting the tire pressure according to the charts provided by the tire manufacture. His argument was while this may be true in a perfect world, for many coaches, this leads to underinflation which leads to heat build up which culminates in tire failure. He stated that if you were looking to get the most mileage from the tire then he would agree with the per axle rule but as with most buses, the tire dry rots before they wear out.

He also stated that 9 times out of 10 when they pull tires from buses, there is evidence of overheating.

One last thing they commented on was the valve extensions for the inner drive wheels. My bus had extensions screwed onto the valve stems of the inner drive wheel to make it easier to check or fill the tire. They suggested eliminating the extentions because they cause a lot of problems on motor coaches or any vehicle that may dive on unimproved roads. They have had many incidents of a fallen tree branch getting caught between the drives and ripping the extension off the stem causing a leak.

The only negative at the shop was they ran out of stick on wheel weights for the aluminum wheels so I will need to swing back so they can re-balance the steers. They did try to use clip on weights for the short term but they came off on the dive home.

Hope some of this information helps.
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2009, 07:33:04 AM »

Quote from: paul102a3
I thought I would share my tire buying experience in hopes that it may help others.

After a ton of phone calls I finally found a tire place in Tampa, FL that had some fairly reasonable tire prices. I needed to replace 4 drive tires and one steer. I know you are supposed to replace the steers as a pair but I had just purchased a new tire a few weeks ago so I only need one new steer to make a matched pair.

Paul that's great news! Where was it in Tampa you dealt with? Way back in the day when I was trucking I dealt with Treadco there quite a bit and always felt they treated me right w/ good prices too!

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« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2009, 09:25:20 AM »

The company is called Boulevard Tire Centers and they are located on Adamo drive not too far from Detroit Diesel.

Paul
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Sean
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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2009, 11:49:23 AM »

I spoke with the manager about tire pressures and his recommendation was to keep the tires between 110 and 115 cold. I mentioned that many on this board suggest having each axle weighed and then setting the tire pressure according to the charts provided by the tire manufacture. His argument was while this may be true in a perfect world, for many coaches, this leads to underinflation which leads to heat build up which culminates in tire failure. He stated that if you were looking to get the most mileage from the tire then he would agree with the per axle rule but as with most buses, the tire dry rots before they wear out.


Paul, this individual is horribly misinformed.  That is not only bad, but also potentially dangerous advice.

No one knows better what the proper inflation pressure of the tire is than the manufacturer itself.  For a tire salesman to say he knows more than the manufacturer about how much pressure should be in the tire is ludicrous.

If your axle load calls for, say, 90psi in the tire, and you run 115 instead, four things will happen, two of them seriously bad:
  • You will get better fuel mileage.
  • You will have a harsher ride.
  • You will wear out the center of the tread faster than you should.  This can be a problem for both drive traction and braking.
  • Here's the biggy:  You will have a smaller contact patch with the road.  This will significantly increase your braking distance even on dry pavement; in slick conditions such as rain, snow, ice, or oil on the road, this can be a potentially deadly, skid-causing situation.

My advice:  don't do it.  Weigh your axles and run the proper pressure per the manufacturers' recommendations, otherwise you are asking the tires to perform outside their design limits.

The salesman is correct that the tires will run cooler if you over-inflate them.  But cooler does not mean safer, until you get to the point where the tire exceeds its design temperature.  That's why the manufacturers set their recommendations where they do, and why higher speeds require higher pressures.  In fact, tires that are too cold also present lower traction and a higher risk of skidding in a hard braking situation.  This is why you see race drivers "warming up" their tires before the race.

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He also stated that 9 times out of 10 when they pull tires from buses, there is evidence of overheating.


That's because 9 times out of 10, the tires were under-inflated -- by which I mean less pressure than the manufacturer's recommendation for load and speed.  This is true for almost all vehicles -- drivers are notoriously lax about checking tire pressures, and many drivers have no clue what their axle weights are.

If you really want to avoid this situation, invest in a tire pressure monitoring system.  That's a much safer alternative than just running the tires 10-20 psi "over" for a "safety margin" that might, in actuality, be compromising your safety.

FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2009, 12:48:59 PM »

Paul, what does MCI recommend for tire pressures I read here all the time about having your axles weighed to get the correct tire pressure.
In the Eagle manual and the tire chart it shows 105# front 100# rears and 90# 0n the bogies or tag empty or loaded.
I know what happen with Ford and their chart guys
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Sean
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« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2009, 01:11:52 PM »

Paul, what does MCI recommend for tire pressures ...


The coach builder's recommendations are a good starting point.  But remember, these are only applicable on the factory tires.  So if your coach came, say, with 12R22.5, but you've changed to 315/80R22.5, the coach builder's numbers will no longer be correct.  Additionally, tire technology has changed quite a bit in the last few decades; if you have a coach built in the 70's, the nameplate pressure recommendations will have been for 70's-era tires, and may not be the correct pressures for today's tires.

Perhaps more importantly, the coach builder's nameplate recommendations for a seated coach will be a high end value, for the coach's rated capacity.  A seated coach's weight can vary 10,000-15,000 lbs up or down depending on whether it is loaded or empty.  By contrast, a converted coach usually does not have that much variability in the weight; ours, for example, only varies up or down by about 3,800 lbs, which is the weight of our maximum fuel and water deltas.  When you weigh your axles, you should do so fully loaded, including tankage, so you will have the correct value to reference the tire charts.

-Sean
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« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2009, 01:18:54 PM »

That very well could be Sean as the info I posted was from a 1994 Eagle 40 or 45 foot     good luck
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« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2009, 03:58:17 PM »

Sean,

Your points are well taken. I wasn't condoning or even agreeing with the advice from the service manager I was just passing it on. I think your methodology is the better way but as you stated in your post, most drivers are less than perfect when it comes to monitoring tire pressures. In the absence of a monitoring system, I think he was saying to start out higher so there is a period of slightly higher pressure which becomes a more correct pressure as time goes by.

The MCI tire chart states 115 for the steers and 85 for the drives and tags. Based on the design of the conversion, the majority of the weight is biased to the rear of the bus and I suspect 85 is too low.

It is my intention to get each axle weighed and then I can set the pressures correctly.


Paul
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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2009, 06:40:49 PM »

Interesting what the shop said. We will try the weighing each axle method, but I think that we will be 100 percent maxing the tire pressure out on our tires. As we are doing our conversion, we are watching weight. I think that all said and done, our coach will be right at it's limit. Not to mention needing to pull a trailer soon.

So I think for us it will be 120 to 130 PSI.

God bless,

John
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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2009, 09:12:03 PM »

Just remember that the manufacturers suggested tire pressure is for a fully loaded passenger bus with full cargo compartments-and with enough safety to cover their butts from getting sued. 

Quite simply-you can't beat the accuracy of weighing each axle when in fully loaded travelling mode, then go by the tire manufacturers inflation rate.  Like I've said before, I run 11R-24.5 16ply Michelin XZE tires all around.  They are rated for 14,200lbs at 120psi in the front and 26,200lb at 110psi in the rear.  If I ran that, my bus would ride like a fork lift.  I have 10,500lbs in front, 20,500lbs in the rear.  That works out between 85-90psi-so I run 90psi all around, and with Pressure Pro wireless tire monitors.  At every stop when driving (about every 2 hours on average) I always check my tires (can't stop being a truck driver), and I feel each tire for excessive heat buildup, or a hot running tire.  Because of these precautions, I rarely have a running tire problem.

I know that Sean has a wireless tire monitor that both transmits tire pressure and tire temperature.  Maybe Sean will share in the make of his monitor!  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2009, 05:50:58 AM »

Yesterday, I was in my car on the highway around Baltimore. I passed a seated 45 Prevost belonging to "Bolt Bus", which I think is part of Greyhound.  The tire inflation placards above each wheel caught my eye. The drive and tag said "105 cold" and the steer was "130 cold".   This tells me this is a pretty heavy beast.
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« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2009, 07:23:59 AM »

 I checked with my friend at Marathon he said they follow Prevost recommendations for air pressure they don't weigh the axles for air pressure. They just stay in the 51,400 lbs gross weight using 365/70R on the front, tag and 315/80R on the drives
How do guys figure out how much air is best the only air pressure rating I have is for the maximum pressure and talking to my Toyo rep in Scottsdale ( not a salesman but a factory rep) he states you give 5% tire life by running his tires below a 100 lbs is that true for all tires     

good luck
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« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2009, 07:30:10 AM »

Luvrbus-  whatever tire brand you have, you can go to their website and pull up the tire inflation tables for your exact tire size.  Actually, the tire inflation tables are pretty close to each other from manufacturer to manufacturer. Please weigh your bus by axle and go to the tire website and use that tire pressure.  About the only restriction is that if your bus is lighter then whats on the inflation table. Then just use the lowest inflation number.  For instance, my 11R24.5's on my truck-if inflated to cover the maximum weight rating of truck tandems on the road is 34,000lb or 17,000lb per axle.  At that weight, I can run just 70psi in my tires- which is still closer to 18,000lb. But- 70psi is the lowest listed pressure.  DO NOT run the maximum pressure listed on the side of the tire as explained very well by Sean.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2009, 07:47:52 AM »

TomC, I have been around a lot of Prevost and they use the maximum air pressure on the front because they are so heavy on the front.
That is why most have the 365/70R on the front now with a 10.5 in wheel.
Over the years I have found out a bus equipped with a tag or boggie it it easy to over load the front axle about impossible to over load the rear and tags.    good luck
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