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Author Topic: Engine Coolant Problem - Need Help!  (Read 4958 times)
JohnEd
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 09:59:42 AM »

So what ever happened to the CO detection kit?  That used to be the "final analysis" for a exhaust leak into the coolant.  I have so much respect for you guys, all of you, that my question is academic: why doesn't this test work on diesels?

CO in coolant: blown head gasket.  Only a little coolant being forced out:  only a little leak.  Only forced out when engine under heavy load: very small leak.  No overheating: small leak.

NO CO in coolant:  Quit even thinking about the head gasket.  Knowing where not to look for sure is a step forward....right?

That may not even be 2 cents worth so please be gentle.

John
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NJT 5573
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 01:49:07 PM »

Jim,

I don't know how to diagnose these things when they just start out and they can go on for some time before you can make a good diagnosis. So what I do is pull the antifreeze and switch to water so the bearings are protected no matter what. Also pull the pressure cap and put it in your tool box.

Then I run them until the problem grows enough to where you can find it. If I am guessing, I have seen liners do this when they first fail. They get a pin hole and compression bleeds into the water side first, then if you run them for a thousand or more miles they will start to drop coolant into the pan.

You sit so far in front of the engine that I doubt you could hear a head bolt chirp, but its easy to pull the covers and check all the head bolts to be sure that one didn't pop a head off, otherwise I would just set it up for protecting the bearings and run it until it something is a little more obvious.

If it is a head bolt, I have had pretty good luck just replacing the bolt if they haven't run a lot of miles. They usually just pop the head off and its not real hard to extract the bolt and drop another one in there .

Injector coppers could also be the culprit, no easy fix there.

My first guess was oil cooler, but they don't have the ability to pressurize the coolant a great deal so....

As long as it has antifreeze in it, you may want to at least pop the pressure cap when you park it so if it goes that direction you don't push it in the pan.

If you don't give it a chance to run awile, most shops are going to sell you a complete rebuild, a set of liners and a rebuilt head and a lot of other new parts to go with it. Some shops will pressurize your head and just repair what is bad if that is where the problem is, but they are hard to find and you have to be willing to roll out without a guarantee on anything except the work they do. Thats how I do it anyway though, I just want to get her back into the wind most times unless I know my engine is really worn out.

Since you have all the extra instrumentation, I would unhook the coolant level sensor to avoid the shutdown at inconvienent times and just top it off when the temp starts climbing, it will cut the power or shutdown if it gets hot anyway.

You usually can run without a pressure cap and the air will escape from the expansion tank without pushing all the water out, allowing you to keep running as well and I'd try that first.

If it doesn't show up in the pan after some miles, then pull the head and have it pressure tested.
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 03:59:13 PM »

OK, update time. I took a sample of the antifreeze into Interstate PowerSystems (thanks for the recommendation Clifford).  Seem like very straightforward people.  They are very sure that it is a head gasket issue.  DD had an update on both the head bolts and the gasket.  My engine probably did not have those updates.  Without them, they say this often happens on an engine with my mileage.

They wanted to pull the engine and I just did not want to go to that length.  We did some brainstorming and then the mechanic came out to the bus.  We are pretty sure we can take out the RV window and use a fork life to get the head up and out.  I guess this is the nice part of having to build a bed rise for the Series 60 – lots of room to climb in and work on the engine.

Don't have the estimate yet.  Does not matter, we can't afford it, but what choice do we have?

This might put us in jeopardy of making the Eagle Rally.  We are trying to see if they can work on it over the weekend (mechanic missed some work this week and think he can get overtime charges waived.

Will keep you posted.
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
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poppi
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 05:59:39 PM »


 Sounds like a plan..........now head over to Camplex and sell sell sell!

 I think your friends attending Ennis will be more than understanding. I can only make a quick
 down and back visit (only 1.5 hrs away short time)

  Heck if you get too far behind come up here and relax for a week and
 if you are still here on july 12 +-a couple there might be a surprise. Fishing is good
 weather is survivable. I PROMISE not to ask you help pick up hay either Smiley

 Skip
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Snow disappeared......Now where did I put that bus?
rv_safetyman
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 06:19:00 PM »

Skip, I would love to spend a ton of time in your beautiful state.  I can only dream of fly fishing some of the beautiful streams (did bring my fly rod). 

This trip is very tightly scheduled.  First the Fleetwood rally here, on to the Eagle rally (about 500 miles) then back across county to the Converted  Coach rally in Ohio and finally the big FMCA rally in Bowling Green.

I can only dream of selling enough to pay for part of the repair Shocked

Thanks for the good thoughts and offer.  Would like to take a rain check on it.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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bobofthenorth
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 07:23:51 PM »

It sucks when these beasts let us down Jim but it's always better to know what the problem is.  I hope that tomorrow brings more certainty for you in that regard - more certainty and less expense if that is possible.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2009, 08:30:51 AM »

New Update 6/26

I just got off the phone with the Interstate folks and they are telling me $6-8K to pull the head and replace the gasket.  They are saying 60 hours of labor.  I simply can't imagine those kinds of numbers.   Sounds like they either don't want to do the job, or that they are trying to take advantage of an out of town person in trouble.

Looks like we will probably head back to Denver after this rally.  I  will pull the engine and take it to a local shop.

Would still welcome thoughts if you have them.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
FloridaCliff
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2009, 08:48:51 AM »

Jim,

Whewww! on that.

I am with you, head on home where time and control of costs is on Your side.

Safe travels,

Cliff
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2009, 08:54:12 AM »

  I guess there pride of there time.....really hurts.

  I went back and looked at your bed frame set-up
  ? if all they are going to do is replace the gasket and bolts then why pull the thing out of the bus at all?

    Put a timber accross the bed frame pull the head up clean and replace the gasket. One may have
  to use a come along to lift up on the side of the head so as to get to the face to clean but leave as much as possible
   on the head. (a whole lot quicker).

  Just a thought..........on cats it was regular to leave turbo, exhaust etc on the head.

   Skip
  
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luvrbus
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2009, 09:00:45 AM »

Jim, they gave me a high estimate on a repair also but it turn out to be about 1/3 of the quote.Talking to Cole he said that was very high time wise but he did say it takes about 20 to 30 hrs depending on the bus and the upgrade if you need it will be over 1000 bucks, he said to take a close look at your counter bores on each cylinder with the head off. Also your going to need some special tools and Monaco has the best prices 541-689-8579 also on the web. Good luck and if you need help just call mountains are sounding good to us about now.FWIW he has always told me they were expensive to work on to reach that million miles mark, bus engines have around a 500 to 600 thousand life span according to him
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 02:44:06 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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NJT 5573
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2009, 06:43:09 PM »

Jim,

I'd run it home and give it some time to worsen. The nightmare here is if you have someone pull the head and you expect a $6000 limit and the head gasket does not have a flaw, then your 6 grand down and no repair is in sight. They may even demand to pull the engine.

60 hours is 60 hours, so why don't you just pull the head yourself. Its not rocket science.

The head is available in LA as a recon for $999 if yours is not cracked, to give you an idea of whats fair to spend. Aftermarket liner kits, (not premium DD,but acceptable for your use), rods, mains and all the gaskets are $1999.

9 times out of 10 it likely is a bolt or gasket, (per Interstate). Luvrbus says the gaskets never fail on the 60 series... If you tear it down away from home and its not then you are really going to spend the big bucks for a rebuild. If you find a broken bolt, just replace the bolt first and see if the gasket won't hold. That's probably a $30 repair if you do it yourself..

The problem here is that I don't think you have ran it far enough to know for sure its not a liner and maybe since it hasn't put coolant into the pan its to soon to be able to pick a liner by pressurizing the coolant. This would need to be done before you pull the head, or you are into a complete rebuild again and maybe pulling the head twice. Once its apart, you can't stop spending until its fixed for sure.

Low mile 14 liters @ 515 HP are available for $10,000 complete, so its hard to spend over $15,000 for a rebuild job. 600,000 mile ones are going for $7000 or less.

If you take Interstates word that its a gasket and go the $6000 route, make them put in writing that a head gasket and some new bolts will fix it, or you leave, with the new gaskets, no charge, bet they won't....

There ain't nothing in that engine you can really hurt by doing your own work. Get the book and do it yourself. You can always call DD out for a $100 an hour service call to set up the overhead if you want after you get it back together.

I think you can rule out that the engine ever got hot. DDEC parameters just don't let that happen. Weather or not the coolant additives were kept up with leads another direction....

I have an old 855 small cam Cummins here in the shop you can have. It has a head over each pair of pistons so one man can take it apart and put it back together all by himself. It also has non press fit liners, so one man with not much more than a hammer can do a complete rebuild in about 20 hours, (I do them in 16). It needs a front main seal, but you can run it forever and it won't use as much oil as an 8V71 even with the seal leaking. It has a 14 inch Lipe double disc clutch and the bellhousing fits any of the Fuller transmissions w/2 inch input shafts.
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"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
luvrbus
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« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2009, 07:14:03 PM »

I agree before spending 6 grand on 12.7 L I would go with the 14L engine also,Jim is creative and thrifty he will figure this one out.  Pat will be busy also taking him to emergency  LOL  
FWIW Jim I bought a complete Dina conversion a roll over with  66,000 miles with a 12.7 and a B500 tranny for 3800.00 bucks. 
Someone here on the board has a 60s with 300,000 miles for 5 g's I don't remember who

     good luck
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 07:24:56 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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johns4104s
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« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2009, 07:33:56 PM »

NJT5573.

Great input,

Jim, I would do exactly what NJT sudjests, get it home with no antfreeze and get the oil and water anolised when you get home.

John
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2009, 08:11:59 PM »

Jim, I can't add to the expert opinions of those before me, cause I'm not an expert! I just hate this for you guys! Whatever you end up doing, I'm sure it will get fixed properly. I'm following, reading and learning.

Paul
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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2009, 08:31:22 PM »

You never know what your going to get into with a engine seen it to many times budgeting 4,000 bucks for a in frame and final cost will 10,000 happen to me on my 8v92.
I could have bought a good takeout for 5,000. 
When I got into it a main bearing was spun and I should have stopped there but kept going and had to buy a new crank that 4700.00 bucks plus a line bore, you can soak big bucks into a engine before you know it. A high mileage engine I would replace it   good luck
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