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Author Topic: Power Ratings  (Read 1549 times)
TomC
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« on: July 07, 2009, 07:29:30 AM »

I know I probably have irritated some 4104 and other bus owners with 6-71's calling them low power.  The truth being-the 6-71 is probably the most reliable engine ever made.  When it came out in 1938, you could still get a 6-71 at its' original 165hp @ 1800rpm rating in 1998 when the engine went out of production (for the public).  Never has a single engine been in continuous production for 60 years, nore will it probably ever happen again.  The 6-71 could be configured to have the blower on either the right or left side, the cylinder head to have the exhaust also on either the left or right side, could be layed over on its side (like in a Crown or Gillig schoolie), even run standing straight up and have it rotation either right or left hand.  In the end, Detroit offered a 485hp marine version rated at 2500rpm.

Back to my point of the 6-71 being low power.  I just went to the Dodge web site and the Cummins 6.7 liter ISB in the pickup truck is rated at 350hp @ 3,000rpm and 650lb/ft torque.  That is more then the 238hp @ 600lb/ft (with N65 injectors) 6-71.  Even the 4106 with its' 8V-71 was rated at 257hp with 680lb/ft torque (with N55 injectors originally)-that could be boosted to 318hp and 800lb/ft torque with N65 injectors.  My turbo'd 8V-71 has 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque now.  Compare that to what is being put into new trucks.  The Cummins 6.7 liter ISB is available up to 300hp and 650lb/ft torque. The Cummins 8.3 liter ISC is available up to 330hp and 1,000lb/ft torque. The Cummins 8.9 liter ISL is available up to 380hp and 1250lb/ft torque.  The Mercedes-Benz 900 engine had a 330hp and 1,000lb/ft torque rating.  Considering the 6-71 weighed in at around 2150lbs, and the Cummins ISL weighs in around 1600lbs and is 4 stroke, the new technology has really brought Diesels forward. 

With the looming smog laws, I am probably going to repower my bus in the future with a Cummins ISL with reverser gear at 400hp and 1200lb/ft torque with all the smog control devices including Urea exhaust fluid injection. 

Granted the stock 6-71 is heavy and low powered by today's standards, but you can't duplicate its' longevity between overhauls with proper maintenance.  It was not unheard of a 6-71 going 1 million miles before overhaul.  Whereas these new electronic medium engines will go about 500,000 miles before overhaul.  Course in our application-that's more then enough.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
jackhartjr
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 08:10:47 AM »

I will say it again, we have a bunch of ISM's with a million miles or more that have not been touched.
Granted they run NC to FL grossing in the 30,000 to 40, 000 range...still a hell of a motor!
JAck
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Jack Hart, CDS
1956 GMC PD-4501 #945 (The Mighty SCENICRUISER!)
8V71 Detroit
4 speed Spicer Trannsmission
Hickory, NC, (Where a call to God is a local call!)
Don Fairchild
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 08:39:16 AM »

The ISM 11L is going away at the end of this year,The new engine will be an ISX11.9 begaining 2010 acording to the guy's at cummings.

Jack if you are only loading 30-40,000 you are not working the engine veay hard. It should last. I get three to four calls a day from truckers running  M11- ISM engines that have come apart with less then 350,000 miles on them looking for parts or another engine.

Don
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luvrbus
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2009, 08:40:46 AM »

OK guys with the gearing on our old buses you are not going to get the benefit from the new engines without costing a ton of money.  
I run with people that have the modern engine my 8v92 gets 7.5 mpg day in day out some of them get 8 you get the modern engines above 1400 rpm they burn fuel.
Jack as a owner of 12 trucks ( end dumps) 80,000 lbs I have to see my first ISM go over 400,000 miles and not for sake of argument but Cummins agrees with me.
If you guys are getting that kind of service out of that engine you have some great and caring drivers and I would sure like to see service records on the engines as for me and my opinion I would not walk across the street for one cost me and Cummins way to much money over the years.  
Even the allmighty 60 series far better engine will not give you that type service  ( had both) .
Take a look at the Southern Plains Cummins web Page they don't hide the facts on how long that engine will run with different weights. 
 I never owned one that didn't put a rod through the block          good luck
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 08:48:04 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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jackhartjr
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2009, 08:52:11 AM »

Clifford and Don, like I said, we run them down to FL, once midway through SC it is flat, we have furniture on which is light.
Our shop is one of the best I have seen.  They stay on top of the trucks.
If I was running anywhere else I would want the Detriot.
I was working for Deere when they got cold feet on the Series 60 and Roger Penske took it over.  Heads rolled!
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
1956 GMC PD-4501 #945 (The Mighty SCENICRUISER!)
8V71 Detroit
4 speed Spicer Trannsmission
Hickory, NC, (Where a call to God is a local call!)
TomC
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2009, 11:08:03 AM »

Now with the new DD15 with turbo compounder, Detroit wants them run between 1,000rpm (max torque at 1,100rpm) and 1,500rpm.  It really is a sweet engine, quiet, responsive, uses a simple turbo, belt driven water pump that's simple to replace, very effective Jake brake that is quiet-makes me almost wish that I was still driving just to use this engine.  It has an estimated 1.2 million engine life-and 50,000 mile on road oil changes.  Next year with Urea exhaust fluid injection, the DD15 will go to a 60,000 mile oil change-and probably see over 8mpg on carefully driven trucks.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
WEC4104
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2009, 11:26:18 AM »

My mind is always boggled by the BMW 335d.   They stuff a 3.0 litre twin turbo diesel in their 3-series. That's 265 HP and 425 lb-ft of torque in a pretty small chassis.   Gotta love 0-60 mph in 6.0 seconds AND 36 mpg highway!    

Edit:  Hmmm. I wonder with the right torque converter whether it would be possible to have the world's only BMW powered 4104?    Bet I could get 13+ mpg
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 11:31:33 AM by WEC4104 » Logged

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jackhartjr
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2009, 01:18:21 PM »

TomC, I wonder what they are estimating the fuel milage to be for that DD15?
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
1956 GMC PD-4501 #945 (The Mighty SCENICRUISER!)
8V71 Detroit
4 speed Spicer Trannsmission
Hickory, NC, (Where a call to God is a local call!)
TomC
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2009, 03:12:57 PM »

Jack- they're estimating an 80,000lb truck driven at 62 mph can get over 8mpg.  We have one driver driving between Salt Lake City and Phoenix (not exactly flat) with a Freightliner Cascadia with the DD15 keeping his speed to 62mph max and in the first 150,000mi, averaged 7.6mpg.  So with the Urea exhaust fluid being used next year and pulling back from the EGR, we're pretty confident in seeing over 8mpg.  Part of this also is from the automatic regeneration on the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) going from the present every 350miles to every 2,500miles from pulling back on the EGR.  Every regeneration cycle whether it be automatic or manually activated by the driver takes about 2 gallons of fuel to accomplish. I'm rather excited about the new system.  It has been in use in Europe already for the past 5 years with good results.  I'm saying this, since we also are going to eventually have to retrofit our buses with the new system (in California by 2023).  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
belfert
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2009, 07:30:12 PM »

I suspect by 2023 that we'll have other worries than installing an emissions compliant engine.  I am more worried about being able to afford fuel in 2023 than anything else.  Oil and fuel prices may be sky high by that time, or RV may be outlawed or taxed to death.

I'm still optimistic and hoping for the best, but we saw what happened with fuel last year.  I am encouraged that speculators in the oil market may be regulated to avoid oil price spikes without underlying demand.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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