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Author Topic: Shepherd Engine Problems  (Read 5412 times)
rv_safetyman
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« on: July 11, 2009, 01:44:13 PM »

A short time ago I started a thread on problems I was having with loss of coolant:  http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12423.msg130552#msg130552

I said that I would update you great folks on my findings.  It is not good and I will need to have the engine rebuilt.  The details are at:  http://rvsafetysystems.com/Engine_problems.htm

I have no idea how we will pay for this, but we don't have an option Sad

Jim
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 01:47:46 PM »

AAAAwwwww, bummer. That is too bad Jim. I feel for you. Money is one of the toughest things....

God bless

John
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 01:59:20 PM »

Sorry to hear that Jim but it sounds like Cole was right on about the center bores on that engine, he has always told me that would happen to a 60 series with miles that is why I passed the info on to you on the Eagle board. 
FWIW he was hoping for you that wasn't the problem    

good luck
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 02:17:57 PM »

Jim, I think that there newer 12.7ltr Series 60 engines out in the market place that could be had for cheaper.

I have seen low mile 14ltr engine for around 10K in this economy.   Look at the DDEC IV engines.   One with 200K on the clock with documented miles might be better than updating your older S60.
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2009, 02:28:42 PM »

Jim,

Really sorry to hear it.  I sent you an email on the subject.

-Sean
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2009, 02:31:35 PM »

While that sounds like alot of money-and it is-I still think you're better to rebuild what you have, and then have the piece of mind that everything in the engine is fresh, and then you're in full control of the maintenance, checking the oil and coolant to prevent cavitation damage in the future.  With proper maintenance, this will probably be your last engine needed.  Make sure you have the radiator checked out also.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2009, 02:45:18 PM »

I believe Jim has a pre EGR 12.7 engine and my sources say that is the engine you want not the 14L or the 12.7 EGR engine       good luck
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2009, 03:16:08 PM »

I feel your pain Jim and FWIW I strongly support your decision to rebuild what you have.  The only advice I can give you in that regard is to start budgetting right now for the final bill to be larger than you presently expect.  The whole premise of rebuilding what you have is that it will be "right" when you are done and that inevitably leads to spending extra money along the way.  IMHO.
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2009, 03:50:57 PM »

My heart goes out to you Jim! I can't imagine how you must feel right now.

I pray for a good fix and the money to do it right!

Paul
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2009, 04:28:48 PM »

Jim,
 I feel for you, never is it a good time to part with $15K. However, my PO had the 6V92TA fully rebuilt & tested in that Stewart & Stevenson Shop in Denver. He was very pleased with service and rebuild. I have about 35K since it was rebuilt & knock wood all is well. I have that repair/rebuild invoice and they were very complete and fair in billing.

Hope all works out for the best for you,

Gary
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2009, 07:32:46 PM »

Jim,

So sorry about your bad news. I agree with planning for bill add on,s, and you do need to check the radiator, rod it, replace the core, while you wait for the rebuild.


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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 08:25:22 AM »

How much would be a Reliabilt long block from the factory?  Then you'd have a factory warranty also (I believe 2yr/200,000miles). Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 11:51:29 AM »

Jim
There is a compleat 12.7 that came out of a wrecked bus in this area that I think can be bought for about $3500.00 The bus was wrecked in the front.  About 450,000 DD3  compleat with everything.  All you would need to do is slide it in.
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 02:09:19 PM »

Jim,

Sorry about the engine.

If it were me whether I had the money or not I would not use that engine. They are like a Cat. The give excellent service for a long time and when they need repairs they need a lot of expensive parts and labor. They also will run long enough to almost out date their technology before they break and then the question of a rebuild and another 700,000 miles comes into play. How will you ever get your money's worth out of that engine?

If you want to run an inline engine the Cummins 855 series are real cheap to buy, easy to repair and inexpensive to repair as well. Maybe not all the glory of having a 60 series or a Cat, but when it needs fixed, they are real easy on your wallet and easy to do yourself with almost no tools. They also use all the same parts for a variety of power ratings from 300 to over 400 HP and they are built to 800 HP and live. They are available from a couple thousand used to up to $8000 rebuilt in todays market.

If you did that, you would end up with solid mechanical technology. Sell the Auto Shift, get a 10 speed double OD to go with it and it could be back on the road for under $3000 with a dependable 120 MPH bus.

I might repair the 60, if not for the camshaft issue. The need for a cam kinda puts it over the limit to me. If the cam were OK, the $1995 aftermarket kit from A&R would be good enough for my RV needs. The low liner protrusion is usually just shimed, but the shops will sure sell you a trip through the machine room if they can. They will likely want to even machine the good holes! May as well line bore the block and turn the crank .010 or .020 for a nice clean up as well! OOPS, there goes $15 grand!

Still, if you had the tools, $2000 for a rebuild kit with gaskets, a few hundred for head bolts and $400 for 2 injectors... Leaves the cam deal... I am looking for a price for a cam and a follower for that engine.

Sell your block, crank, head, turbo parts etc. for some cash... Buy another engine... There has to be a used engine like yours around that has already been rebuilt for a reasonable price.

You were smart not to go for the head gasket deal because now we know that would have not got you out of trouble and you would have been stuck on the spot for some real big bucks.

Cummins has kept alot of us poor people in the trucking business. Those days are kind of gone with the newer engine technology, but the old stuff sometimes is still the best stuff in many ways, especially when they need repair. You can cut the Cummins counterbores in the vehicle, 3 heads lets you repair the bad hole and go back to work. Push fit liners on the old small cam engines all make them simple and cheap to keep in service. Press fit on the Big Cam isn't that much harder to do... Its a joke in the Cummins parts room, that if you don't like the big bucks emissions engines you should just go back to the 855 series. I think they would be impossible to beat for service in a bus/RV situation.  

In trucking we don't always rebuild everything just because it stopped working. Sometimes we are like you and don't want to spend the bucks. The value of a good mechanic is knowing what will run again and what won't. I have seen liners with electrolysis rotated 1/2 turn and reinstalled with a hone job and some new rings. The low liners would just get shimmed if nothing is cracked and set some new bearings for the well being of the crank and off it goes. The big problem doing that with the 60 series or a Cat is the one piece head really keeps the labor costs up there and if your going to tear into it you may as well do it right unless you do all your own work and don't mind spending some more time on it a couple hundred thousand miles down the road.

There were only 10 really bad people that came from the Yakima Valley and I get 9 Christmas cards every year. One of those cards comes from my friend Tom. He's in the hospital today. They put a liner in his heart last night. They could have given him a new heart or a rebuilt, but they just fixed what was broken this time. I don't think he got a guarantee, but he's back on the road in the morning.
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 02:25:26 PM »

From reading Jim's webpage I don't think he wants to take a risk with another used engine.  How does he know if he spends $5,000 on a used engine that he won't be in the position of needing a rebuild again in 6 months or a year?  Also, considering all the time he spent on a wiring harness and motor mounts for the Series 60 I doubt he is going to switch to a different model of engine.

Maybe it would better for him to rebuild a used engine without known problems, but I don't really know.  The total costs would probably end up the same.

I am really hoping I don't see these problems with my Series 60, but I believe it only has 300,000 to 400,000 miles on it.  I would probably be forced into an as-is sale of my bus if my engine needed a rebuild with my finances today.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2009, 04:58:30 PM »

Tom has mentioned a really good suggestion> try to find out what a factory longblock is worth which will give Jim a 2 year warranty.    Even though Jim has mentioned that he wants to keep his engine> it might need so much machine work to get it correct that a better engine block might be in order.   Why did the liners sink, if you had that much damage and erosion what are the other holes looking like. 

NJT5573 has also brought up some very good points and advise.   There is a shop that has been selling a few S60 blocks on ebay for around $800  fully machined.    On the west coast you can call Diesel Cast or Diesel Cast West in Portland.   I think they have a few S60 engine blocks machined and ready to go.

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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2009, 06:04:46 PM »

We bought a Reliabilt 12.7 series 60 3 years ago and it was 19 grand + odd and ends came to a total of 21 grand  bet they are over 25 grand now +and you get a 100,000 mile warranty free so to speak but pay for the other 100,000 miles.
FWIW guys you do a out of frame rebuild on a 8v92 if it has a bad crank and heads you can get up to 20 grand with the repairs been there ,done that and have the tee shirt to prove it.  good luck
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 06:05:25 PM »

Series 60 rebuilds at an authorized Detroit dealer only come with the really good warranty if the engine is less than 10 years old.  I don't know if a Reliabilt long block would have the same warranty issues or not.
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« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 06:19:09 PM »

Jim,

Wow we are up in the big dollars. I do not know what your first take out cost but I would try to find something less expensive than the 20K plus. I have a friend and all he does is go by the yards and listen to the engine in the truck run, if he likes what he hears he has them cut it out load it on a trailor take it to his yard and install them with modifications to tug boats.

If your are interested I will get his input for you, you will have to give me any specifications that will help him.

John
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« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2009, 06:39:59 PM »

If I was buying a DDEC engine I would follow a friends advice and remove the DDEC and take it to dealer and let them  download the DDEC nothing can be erased from memory only from the Prom (read only).
Cole is a pretty sharp guy on the DD and loves the 8v92 and series 60 engines and always laughs when people say they run the series 60 a million miles and do nothing to the engine.      good luck Jim with whatever you do but a used 60 series with 4 or 500,000 miles on the engine would not be a option for me
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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2009, 07:28:09 PM »

What Clifford said and good luck from this Canuck too.  Its pretty easy for all of us to spend Jim's money but I'm betting its not such an easy call from where he sits.
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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2009, 07:35:15 PM »

Hi guys - thanks for all the thoughts and comments.

Several folks have suggested a Reliabilt long block.  DDC has a four stage rebuild program that they call "Step Up".  This link explains the program and prices:  http://www.teamtruck.com/links/list/index.php?id=28.  As you can see, the replacement engine is over $21K.  These prices are just about what Stewart Stevenson charges, but they do not publish the replacement cost (would assume they would be close).

My $15K quote is for a stage 2 with new injectors, new bull gear, new cam, and full machining of the liner shoulder with inserts.  I am not sure what else they could find to charge me for.  The crank is good, and they have inspected the block for obvious cracks.

The turbo and water pump are good (I replaced them before I stuck the engine in).

I would still entertain a used engine IF repeat IF it had a documented good rebuild or had documented low miles (less than 400K) AND documented good maintenance.  However, the logistics of getting the engine here and my engine there could add up in cost and time.

I think the maintenance on this engine was marginal at best (no records available).

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2009, 07:52:28 PM »

I think the maintenance on this engine was marginal at best (no records available).

What maintenance items do you think the previous owner might have neglected?  I would like to be sure I am doing everything right, but I have no idea how the previous owner may have treated the bus when they had it.  This reminds me that I need to go get a new coolant filter.
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2009, 09:05:18 PM »

Brian,

The only maintence issue I see is the cavitation issue with the liners and they didn't fail. The liner protrusion I would not judge without looking at the head gasket. The computer engines are real hard to get hot with all the shutdown devices, so the liners are probably still close to where they were when it left the factory. How would 2 drop togather? Not likely and I know of no history of this engine having this problem with side by side cylinders.. The camshaft looks like it was an injector lobe and it did have 700,000 miles on it and thats not bad for a camshaft. That is one area where some synthetic oil could have helped, but cams fail anyway... Was the bad lobe firing one of the bad injectors?

I think if the head bolt wasn't broken, Jim would likely still be driving it around for some time. Thats a lot of miles for any head bolt. They wear thin just under the head for some reason and just die. On a rebuild I always throw the ones that show any wear and I can almost always find more than one to replace, especially when you have over 400 HP...

Was the head bolt broken on the same hole as the cam lobe? As the blown head gasket? Is one of those the same hole as one of the liners that is walking around in the block?

So, more oil changes or better oil may have helped the cam, but thats about it and this engine could have been pulling 105,500 lbs all its life and if thats the case, it probably did its fair share.
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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2009, 03:30:56 PM »

OK Guys, need your though process (vote) once again.  I am convinced that the rebuild will not go over the quote of $15k and change unless they find a crack in the block (am told that is unlikely). 

I have spent the last two days looking at alternatives to put together that much money and it is grim. 

I said that I did not want to buy another engine, but I found one (with the help of a great friend).  It is Ogden UT and I know the folks to be pretty darn honest.  Brian Diehl got his engine from them.

The engine was rebuilt 180K ago according to some papers they have and the fact that the ECM was reset.  The owner said he can tell the head has been replace as well as the turbo.  It would be about 8K delivered to Denver.

So, if I get the serial number, and it was rebuilt by DDC, would they have a record?  Do other rebuilders reset the ECM?

If I can confirm that the engine was rebuilt, what are your thoughts on trying the used route again. 

My poor old tired brain is not working too well right now and I could use some guidance.

Thanks!!!!!

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2009, 03:46:22 PM »

Jim, Cole read your post an called me said post the serial number if was rebuilt by a DD dealer and not a truck dealer he can get you any info you need on that engine.       good luck
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2009, 04:38:09 PM »

Clifford, I have asked for the serial number and what truck line owned the truck (might speak to the maintenance).  I should have that information tomorrow. 

Cole, thanks for the offer.
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
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« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2009, 06:44:43 PM »

I'd say buy it.
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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2009, 07:24:01 PM »

get the numbers and check them out.

I wish I had gotten the serial numbers and other information

HTH YMMV

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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2009, 08:33:46 PM »

Jim,

The ECM reset is a DD mainframe computer only item as far as I know. Make sure the serial numbers match ECM to block.

Its still alot of money, but the rest of us buy used all the time. I'd find out why it was parted and want to be sure there is no physical damage to the engine they won't stand behind. I've seen turbo housings cracked etc...

DDEC takes alot of the variables out of this because it would shut down if it was on its side and lost oil or water.

If they have the paperwork see what they did to the counterbores and crank....
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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2009, 09:59:50 PM »

Darn, I'm not much help, other than I'm pulling for you!

happy coaching!
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« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2009, 07:41:34 PM »

Clifford, I sent you the Serial Number for the engine in Utah (via your yahoo.com mail box).

Supposed to have 168K on the reset ECM and 4500 hours.  Just to be on the safe side, here is the S/N again:  06R0521890.

Thanks for the help.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2009, 08:16:37 PM »

Jim, Cole said that is a DD rebuild was rebuilt at 443,000 miles due to piston failure and was a 430 hp originally he will have all the details for Monday if he has time    good luck and sorry about your truck when it rains it pours
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« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2009, 10:00:16 AM »

Not sure how your making out at this point, but I was looking in the truck paper, some outfit had about 12 used 60 series for $2500.00 each. I don't have the # right now. but will get it to you in a few hours from now.  Gord.
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« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2009, 03:15:26 PM »

OK here is the #, 866-922-6455. The outfit is called Hagerman,Inc. they are in Umatilla OR.  Says they have 15 left @ $2500.00 each exchange."Inspected and test run" DDEC 11, 111 & 1V available.  Their E-Mail is  hagerman@eotnet.net.  Might be worth a call. Good Luck. Gord.
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