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Author Topic: Broke down south of Chicargo.  (Read 5801 times)
kyle4501
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« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2009, 08:31:06 PM »

And another thing,
If a nut is tough coming off, throw it away, it is past it's usefull life. Mark the stud & try a new nut on it - if it runs all the way down by hand, the stud is still serviceable. If you find a tight spot, the stud is past it's usefull life & should also be replaced. Easy enough, don't you think?  Cool

Me thinks replacing studs while the wheels are already off at the shop is whole lots more efficient than waiting for the mood to strike while traveling . . .  Sad

Anytime I can't run the nuts down by hand, I know they NEED replacing. I also know that if I reuse them, I'm increasing the damage to the studs . . . . which I'm told are really hard to get for my bus . . . Tongue


Oh, BTW, when you tighten a nut, as the stud stretches, its diameter gets smaller. A smaller diameter equals less strength equals less holding capacity.
Still think ignoring the factory recommended torque specifications is a smart idea?  Embarrassed

Just because the factory design & specifications have a margin of safety is no reason to treat them with contempt.  Wink


I'm a tool junkie  Shocked, so I bought a torque multiplier off eBay. Easy to use & I like the way it slowly eases up on the torque. Easy to 'feel' the condition of the assembly - it should seat & then uniformly run up to specified torque value. If you have 1 or 2 that take more turns than the others, those have a problem which is likely a stretched stud . . . . Time to re-think replacing a few studs. It can be a real bitch if the stud breaks on a stud piloted outer wheel . . . . . Sad
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NJT 5573
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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2009, 09:36:01 AM »

A most important factor here is the vehicle we are working on. I have Class 8 trucks and similar equiptment on my bus and that is the only equiptment that I am talking about. Tools designed and used for specific uses.

Many have stick and staple coaches, some built on chassis as light as 1 ton truck chassis. To use a commercial tire gun on this kind of equiptment would be a huge misuse of tools and would lead to a failure real soon.

The same tire man, (myself included), that does my heavy equiptment with the 1 inch gun always uses a torque wrench to do my little tires. If he showed up at my one ton dualy, or the Toyota shop truck with a one inch gun, I'd kick his butt.
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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2009, 09:49:07 AM »

Garages & tire shops use impact wrenches for a reason - time = $$$  & most customers are looking only at the initial cost. Add to that the fact that replacing wheel studs is a billable line item. . . . just try to explain why you're charging an extra couple of hours just to hand tighten the wheels - most customers would badmouth you for padding the bill!

I would be finding a new tire shop if they charged a couple of hours to hand tighten lug nuts!  I believe a bus has 80 lugnuts so it shouldn't take more than an hour additional at the most.  They could still use the air gun to tighten them most of the way.
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kyle4501
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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2009, 11:10:27 AM »

Tightening one to ~500 ft-lbs takes some effort & time.

Mine has stud piloted wheels, & 10 tires, that is 100 nuts to tighten. I don't know about you, but I'm gonna need a break or two.  Wink
There was a tire store in town about 20 years ago that hand tightened all wheels & used a torque wrench. Then someone else came after them to check the torque of each nut. It took almost an hour on my car (20 nuts at ~ 80 ft-lbs). Their work quality was awesome, but they weren't in business for long!

The point wasn't so much about the actual time required to do it, but the added cost that few would want to pay.


I know I'm being overly anal about this, maybe it's because I understand what is going on & how the system works,
 but . . . .
I have worked with commercial tire shops. You may be surprised at how many there don't know what the output torque is of the impact wrench they are using.



How many realize an impact wrench puts out more torque CCW than CW?  Makes a difference on the left hand threads used with stud piloted wheels.

Speaking of left handed threads, how many know why they are used on stud piloted & not in hub piloted wheels?
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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2009, 01:33:38 PM »

Tightening one to ~500 ft-lbs takes some effort & time.

Sure does.  Especially if you don't hammer them up pretty tight with the rattle gun before you start using the 4 foot wrench.  If you are working alone and half-assed out of shape - like me for instance - it will take about an hour just to put the duals back on.  A simple retorquing takes around an hour to do the whole coach by the time you pull and replace all the beauty nuts and it will get you surprisingly warm on a halfways hot day.
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2009, 05:58:38 PM »

I have to comment.  I haven't seen a tire shop guy with an airgun without a torque limiting extension in several years.  But my local tire shop - the same guy who stores my off  season tires for free, who mounts all my odd-ball race tires for free, who when I show up with a screw in the tread and late for an airplane ride has me repaired and on my way in 20 minutes  - for free - does up every single lug in his shop with a torque wrench AND gives you a reminder card to come back in 100 miles and get them re-torqued - for free...

Plus he has the best prices in town by a long shot, cheaper than ordering on the internet too.  He gets about 100% repeat business, and is very successful.  Old fashioned, just the way I like it! 

If there were any other busnuts in Dundas Ontario, I'd tell you to patronize dundas TireCraft, but i don't believe there are any others here.  Although I did see another MCI the other day...

Brian
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kyle4501
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2009, 07:02:41 PM »

I don't dispute that quality shops exist, I just don't think they are very common.  Sad

I also don't think many understand how to properly use their tools, especially if they don't understand how the tool works.


One thing most people don't realize, including a lot of techs, is that torque sticks are designed for a limited amount of torque input.
Meaning, if you use too large of an impact gun with too high of a setting then they will still overtorque the wheels and potentially cause damage.

From a torque stick website:
WARNING: Torque sockets and truck torque extensions cannot be used to take off wheel nuts. Calibrate your impact gun and follow all manufacturers' recommended procedures when using Torque Master products.

Ask the tire shops that use torque sticks if they have calibrated their impact gun.



If you are concerned, take your own torque wrench & go behind them to see what the torque is. My experience is why I'm such a skeptic. . . .
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« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2009, 08:58:53 PM »

...
Speaking of left handed threads, how many know why they are used on stud piloted & not in hub piloted wheels?



I'll bite.  Why Huh
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kyle4501
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2009, 06:13:51 AM »

Left threads are used on the left side with stud piloted wheels because IF the nut were to become loose, the movement (in the ball seat area) between the nut & wheel won't cause further loosening if the wheel is rotating in the same direction to tighten the nut.

Loose wheel is better than no wheel . . . . but will soon become a no wheel situation if not addressed. . .

Hub piloted wheels have a flat flange interface between the nut & wheel that acts differently, hence the rotation direction doesn't matter.




The other reason I've heard is that it is a conspiracy to allow the tire shops to charge more $$$  Shocked  Grin
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2009, 06:58:20 AM »

Kyle, is it possible that Al Gore invented the lug nut while dreaming up the internet?  May explain the different and sometimes confusing options.  John
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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2009, 07:17:08 AM »



Kyle  you are not old enough to have had a 1958 Pontiac . first car I was around with left handed lug nuts

 Maybe you have been around some british cars with wire wheels.  The nut has directions and arrows on them.

uncle ned
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kyle4501
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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2009, 07:23:08 AM »

I do have a '52 L110 international pickup, does that count?  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2009, 07:58:45 PM »

Why is it that some of you guys just can't leave your right wing politics out of this forum? It really gets tiresome, especially when most of it is pure bull.

My '67 Barracuda had L/R lugs and some service station kid was always breaking my lug bolts trying to remove LH wheels.

My 4104 had the two front wheel hubs reversed when I got it, the LH lugs are on the RH side. I assume that happened when the brake drums were replaced before I bought it. The good news is that I've had absolutely no problems with them in three years and 45,000 mo.
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« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2009, 08:03:47 PM »

Gus
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« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2009, 06:44:57 PM »



Thanks everyone for your input, especially Mike from Chicargo who offer to come and help.
Well we got everything back together and are back on the road, Complete with 10 new studs,10 new inner and outer nuts and one very expensive new Alcoa rim.
When it was time to undo the nuts and studs that did hold they were all stretched from over tightening, Dallas you were correct. I know there are several schools of thought but from what I saw the GUN that did this damage was running 1000lbs plus. I dont care what anyone says the shops I use Will use a toque wrench or will allow me to toque my own.

John.

PS MCI had the studs, they were priced at $33,50 each the back up lock nuts were $7.50 each that is $400.00 for one wheel. I used a diffrent supplier at $130.00 for one wheel. The only reason i bring this up is that we should get a aftermarket part# so we can always shop for parts.
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