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Author Topic: Blew turbo, west of Albuquerque  (Read 11891 times)
Sean
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« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2009, 05:50:35 PM »

The number for the hot side is on the other side of the hh. and stamped on the inside of the flange. I cant tell from the pick but you have probably a TV8511 with a 1.39 HH. You can change to a 1.23 HH with out any program changes. It will help your mid range and low end


Don, your post came in while I was typing.

I posted the Detroit part # earlier, and, as Kevin's chart above shows, it crosses to the Garrett TV8513.  That's also the number both S&S and PEDCO came up with when I provided the number from the DDA plate.

The A/R of 1.39 was, indeed, embossed on the "inside" of the turbine housing.

Thanks for your help.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2009, 05:54:14 PM »

From recent experience I know how hard it is to remember to keep this forum updated when you are in the middle of dealing with a crisis.  Sean, you are doing a much MUCH better job than I did under similar circumstances.  Thank you from all of us who eagerly await each day's chapter in the ongoing story.
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« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2009, 06:59:11 PM »

Sean,

Looking at the photo album of the turbo disassembly it looks like an oil starvation meltdown doesn't it?

BK, Don or Kevin what does that damage to the turbine vanes look like FOD or overheating/oil starvation to you guys?

I leave it to the experts.

Sean, we're pulling for you. Hope this nightmare ends soon without too much money being spent.

I am not a gambling man but I might give one good pull of a slot machine to see if my luck was changing.

Just kidding.

Good luck,

Rick
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I will drive my Detroit hard... I will drive my Detroit hard.
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« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2009, 07:14:44 PM »

Sean, it was a pleasure talking to you today..   Like I told you, I had to "pay it forward" for all the good advice you have given over the years.

Hopefully you will be installing a turbo tomorrow and breaking it in..

Rick, there is a picture in the gallery that Sean has posted that show the turbine shaft inside of the bearing housing.    It looks good and not discolored (blue/black) from "lack of lubrication"    The turbine wheel did NOT seize.   The shaft freely turns in the bore.   FOD damage will typically knock off the blade tips.    One or two blades really take the impact, and the next blade tips are less severe.    It doesn't take much to impact a blade when it is turning 60K RPM plus.    If you guys are interested I can post a few good pictures.    Like I told Sean, this failure was a chicken or the egg situation.   I'm leaning towards FOD from when he had the exhaust clamp fixed.    A turbocharger will quickly fail when it has eroded blade tips.   It runs in a "unbalance" state, which will destroy itself.  When the head broke loose, it had the full energy of the exhaust turning it.   Imagine  your brake rotors with no pad material left>metal on metal...

For what has happened over the weekend with Sean, I think it will end well..
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2009, 07:38:05 PM »

Rick,
don't make me lie! I ain't no turbo expert! I just know when they work they work, n went they don't they are a pain!

Honestly it's hard to tell!

Sean,
Hey after looking at the pics I could've sent ya an identical one! It's in the bay of parts under the parts bus! Looks IDENTICAL! Grin

Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2009, 08:27:21 PM »

Take a look at this photo it is number 4 from Sean's site.  The nut appears to have lost its point at the 6 o'clock position.  Also the round flat just below the nut appears to have lost a small chip.  Could this be a point of origin for original failure?  Or simply damage after failure? 
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Sean
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« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2009, 11:06:59 PM »

Take a look at this photo it is number 4 from Sean's site.  The nut appears to have lost its point at the 6 o'clock position.  Also the round flat just below the nut appears to have lost a small chip.  Could this be a point of origin for original failure?  Or simply damage after failure?  


I think neither.

I believe what you are seeing is a small flat machined into the hub, probably after the cartridge was assembled, to dynamically balance the turbine.  You can see the same flat in the photo I posted earlier:
http://odyssey.smugmug.com/gallery/131040_g58Tf#595657459_fxPCa

which was taken before the unit was installed back in 2005.  The flat in that photo is at about the 11 o'clock position.

There is a similar machined spot on the compressor side.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 11:08:41 PM by Sean » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2009, 06:51:35 AM »

Sean,

I went back and looked at the pictures of your bus. She's a beauty.

Rick
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Sean
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« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2009, 09:21:54 AM »

... She's a beauty.


Why would I lie?  But don't fall in love...

 Smiley

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2009, 09:32:58 AM »

Sean, the flat being referred to is a spot that is ground in the balancing process.  Some re builders weld to add weight and that can contribute to the friction weld that attaches the shaft to the exhaust wheel failing!  The shaft and exhaust wheel are of vastly different materials.  The exhaust wheel is from hastelloy to inconel and other materials all being high heat resistant stainless alloys!  By the way the nut being referred to is not a nut at all!  And I am not an expert but a person that once had a shop repairing industrial turbos.  My definition of a expert is a drip under pressure or someone thousands of miles away from the problem saying pushing the reset button should have fixed the problem!  Hope the best for You and hope You are on the road soon.  Regards ,john
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RickB
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« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2009, 01:36:28 PM »

Sean,

Only a musician would catch that!! I worked with those guys in the 80's. Lost a lot of brain cells.

Come to think of it... that explains an awful lot!

Fantastic Delusion was one of my favorites of theirs.

Trust me, they were "white punks on dope"

Good luck with your motor,

Rick
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« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2009, 08:53:13 PM »

Are we referencing the Tubes?
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Sean
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« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2009, 09:18:28 PM »

Yes, Niles.  Sorry, it was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read Rick's post.  Which says a lot about me, I guess.

Rick, I'm sorry, but I am not a musician, only a music fan.  Although my first wife was a bona fide roadie (stage hand), and had many stories to tell about the business.  My current wife tells me I should sing Solo Tenor -- so low no one can hear me, ten or eleven miles away.

For anyone who's lost, the reference is to "She's a Beauty" by The Tubes.  About, ahem, a peep-show girl, sung from the point of view of a hawker.

Update on the turbo situation shortly.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2009, 09:55:06 PM »

Saw one of their first live shows @ Sawdust Festival, Laguna Beach, circa 1974???
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Sean
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« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2009, 10:49:33 PM »

OK, here's where we stand now on the turbo situation:

The executive summary is that it appears to be completely fixed, and it also appears that it was nothing more than what we originally suspected, a blown turbo.

For all you die-hards, the longer version is as follows.  As I wrote here yesterday, we decided to order a Reliabilt reman from Stewart & Stevenson, and it came down from their Denver location overnight by bus.  I called the Albuquerque office around 11 this morning, figuring I should have already heard something from them, and they informed me that it had just arrived.

We loaded the old turbo on the back seat of my scooter and headed the ~20 miles back to town, avoiding the freeway by staying on old Route 66.  Sure enough, S&S had the turbo, and it was the correct item.  Unfortunately, the gaskets never arrived.  No matter, since checking the order revealed they had ordered the wrong gaskets anyway.  It soon became apparent why -- it took three different parts clerks and a service manager, plus myself, combing through three different parts books, to find the numbers for the correct parts.

The issue has to do with the turbo being top mounted, with the oil drain coupled directly to the blower cover.  Most of the exploded diagrams show an oil return tube, which I (and most bus installations) don't have.  The seal for the oil drain is listed on some parts manifests, but it does not show on the diagrams, nor is its function listed on the manifest.

Nearly two hours later, we had tracked down part numbers for the oil drain seal and the blower adapter gasket; the exhaust flange gasket was the easy one, and they had produced one within the first few minutes.  They turned out to also have the drain seal in stock.  Unfortunately, the blower adapter gasket was not, nor did anyone else in town have one.  At least this was the least critical of the three, and it can be replaced later if need be without having to remove the turbo.

We loaded the new turbo, the gaskets, and a gallon of 40-weight back onto the scooters and headed back to the casino, where I arranged to meet Jim the mobile truck repair guy.  He was so efficient at getting the thing out, I decided to enlist his help putting it back in, too.

As it turned out, he had to wrestle with it for nearly two hours to get it back in.  Everything is tight in my engine bay, and getting the exhaust flanges, the exhaust pipe, the intake elbow, and the blower adapter to all line up and cooperate was a challenge.  I had to open up the access hatch through the radiator intake so we could tug on the exhaust plumbing, and Jim ended up loosening the turbine and compressor housing clamps on the new unit to tweak the clocking to get it all to fit.  eventually we had it all back in place, and then started pouring 40-weight into the bearing through the oil supply hole.

Hmm... the oil does not seem to be going in.  Nope -- it's just sitting there in the fitting.  Even spinning the compressor wheel is not getting any oil to drain.  After probably ten minutes of this, we decided the tiny orifice at the oil supply was clogged, most likely with assembly grease.  We threaded an air fitting into the supply hole, and a quick blast of compressed air cleared the obstruction.  After pouring a few ounces of oil into the bearing from a squeeze bottle, we re-attached the oil supply line.

From the rear switches, which allow for cranking the engine with the fuel solenoid closed, I bumped the engine around a few times in short pulses -- so many folks have warned me about a blown injector tip, that I was worried a cylinder could be full of fuel and hydraulically locked.  But there was no resistance at all.  So I cranked it three or four times for close to ten seconds apiece, closely spaced, to get some oil flowing up to the bearings and purge any air from the supply line.  Then I set the switch on run and cranked it again, and it immediately lit off.

I noticed two things right away. The first was that I did not get a big puff of white smoke when it started -- we've been seeing such a puff of smoke on start-up for several months now, and it is one of the symptoms I have reported every time we've had anything done on the engine.  We've now fired up three or four times today, with no smoke evident on any start.  The second was that things sounded smoother than they have in a while, and the exhaust looked and smelled cleaner.  All good signs.

After checking for leaks, shutting down, and rechecking clamp tightness, we declared victory and I paid Jim for his time -- two hours, plus travel.  We then buttoned the coach up, loaded the scooters, and set out around the parking lot on a low-speed test drive.  Kevin (Zeroclearance) had strongly recommended getting everything up to operating temperature (and then back down to cold again) three times before putting any real load on the turbo, and so we kept speed and acceleration down, watching the boost gauge to try to keep it under 2 psi (we hit 3 psi occasionally).  I stopped occasionally to check for smoke and read the temps with an IR gun, but all was normal at every stop, other than oil spitting out of the exhaust and the muffler drains.  I expect to be puking oil for the next fifty miles, until whatever's left in the exhaust and the airbox finally burns off or spits out.

After half an hour or so of "road" time (we made it as far as the historic Rio Puerco bridge), during which I noticed subjectively more power and less black smoke than we've had in quite some time (even at these very low boost levels) we parked for the night in the casino's RV lot, blissfully out of range of the incessantly idling trucks.  After dinner, when all had cooled down, I popped the hatch to check all the clamps and look for leaks.

What I found was that Jim had tightened the clamps on the outlet hose with the jackscrews too close to the steel supports for the top of the turbo compartment.  We've had problems in this area before (see http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2005/05/duct-between-turbo-and-blower-showing.html), and so I loosened the clamps and rotated them 90 for clearance.  When I did this, I noticed two things; one was that there was a ripple in the hose, because the clocking of the compressor housing had the outlet just a tad out of line with the blower adapter inlet.  The second was that the hose looked torn in exactly the same spot as shown in the photo I just linked.

With both hose clamps loose, I was able to loosen the compressor housing v-band and inlet duct, then gently tap the volute around a couple degrees with a plastic deadblow, taking care of the first issue.  Without removing the adapter, however, I could not remove the hose to see if the tear went all the way through.  Moreover, I was afraid that I could worsen the situation by trying to remove the hose.

What I ended up doing was to tighten up all the clamps, fire up the engine, set the high idle to get enough compressor speed to bring the pre-blower boost pressure up above atmospheric (at extremely low compressor levels, the blower can clear the air as fast as the compressor provides it, yielding 0.0 boost, or just atmospheric pressure).  Then I sprayed the hole with soap solution, just as one would when looking for air line leaks.  No bubbles, so we think the hose is intact, and the tear we can see is just in the outer jacket.  We will order a new hose and replace it as a precaution the next time we pass a Detroit shop.

As long as the engine was now already running, I closed up the hatch and we let it come all the way back up to temperature before shutting down for the night.  Tomorrow, we will do one more hot/cold cycle before we leave; during that warm-up I will connect my DDR and run the injectors, just to be certain we are firing on all cylinders, to borrow a phrase.  If all seems well, we will clear out of here and resume our previous route west to Phoenix.

At this writing, it seems as though we did not have any deeper problem, such as blown injector tips, or catastrophic destruction of rings or valves becoming FOD and hitting the turbine.  I can't rule out FOD as a cause -- it's possible something such as a rust flake or a clot of coke got knocked off into the exhaust when S&S in Farmington repaired an exhaust clamp, for example.  But I am inclined to believe that what really happened here is that the turbine wheel became slightly imbalanced many moons ago, possibly due to FOD but also possibly just due to manufacturing tolerance issues -- it was a rebuilt unit to begin with.  Over time that imbalance caused irregular bearing wear, and the turbine has been wobbling in the bearing for several months.  Eventually, the edge of the journal scored the shaft, creating a weak spot right where the turbine wheel attaches.  It was then only a matter of time before some combination of heat, load, and speed caused the shaft to shear along the score line.  The extensive damage to the turbine blades then occurred almost immediately as the now loose turbine wheel ricocheted around the housing.

I will report back here once I have actually brought the engine into the powerband and the boost levels up into the high teens, and let you know how it's running.  But based on testing so far, I believe we will be back to 100% normal operation.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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