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Author Topic: Diesel Antifreeze  (Read 12747 times)
rv_safetyman
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« on: July 27, 2009, 04:56:36 AM »

In one of my "ongoing saga" threads (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12749.0), the subject of diesel antifreeze and cavitation came up.  I thought I would start a separate thread on the subject.

This subject has been discussed several times on this board, but I thought it would be worth starting yet again another thread.  

Large diesel engines (including our DDC two and four stroke engines) require an antifreeze with special specifications.  The primary specification is that it must have low silicates and Supplemental Cooling Additives (SCAs).  

Automotive antifreeze that you buy at the cheaper automotive stores does not meet these specifications!  If the incorrect antifreeze is used, excessive cavitation of the cylinder liners can result.  Not all DDC engines have wet liners (where cavitation can result in engine failure if it breeches the liner wall), but it would still be good practice to use the correct antifreeze.

DDC has published a good booklet on the subject:  http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Public/brochures/7SE298.pdf.

I have posted a picture of cavitation damage at:  http://rvsafetysystems.com/Engine_problems.htm.  The picture is a thumbnail.  Click on it to get more detail.

Jim
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:04:49 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 06:47:58 AM »

Jim I use a good heavy duty antifreeze from Detroit it is green in color, the colored antifreeze most sell are a long life pre charged antifreeze same as the green only with the chemicals added.
Folks make the mistake thinking you never have to add chemicals to the colored stuff for balance big mistake on their part.
 
Keep your system balanced with clean water and a SCA filter and you don't have problems as you know I don't use distilled water in mine but do use R/O water.
 
The 4 strokes are more prone to cavitation than a 92 series as the 92 has only 2 inches of the liner that comes in contacts with the coolant and that is at the top for cylinder cooling to make more power. 
 
The 71 series has zero contact with the liners
 
The advantage of the colored antifreeze is longer life between changes but don't buy antifreeze from a place like Auto Zone.

Fwiw the water specs from DD never included the 2 strokes till a few years ago you should read the water spec in the 92 and 71 manuals     good luck and a good subject
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 03:45:08 PM »

Thanks Clifford.  I was not aware that DDC sold both "short" life (my term) and "long life" (pink) antifreeze.  I think their "Power Cool" is the pink long life version.  As I recall it is about $16 per gallon in the full strength version (as opposed to the 50/50 version).

The last I checked at DDC they did not sell the test strips (to test the SCA level) in small quantities.  I am told the test strips have a fairly short shelf life.  Anyone have a good source for the test strips in quantities of 5 or less?

BTW, I told Chad that I would write an article on this subject.  Have not heard back from him yet.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 04:41:51 PM »

The last I checked at DDC they did not sell the test strips (to test the SCA level) in small quantities.  I am told the test strips have a fairly short shelf life.  Anyone have a good source for the test strips in quantities of 5 or less?


Jim,

Fleetguard 3-way test strips, CC2602A, come in a package of four, individually wrapped, with an expiration date on the package.  Available at any Cummins dealer.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2010, 07:18:31 AM »

I lost a couple gallons of Antifreeze changing my old sock type Perry coolant filter to a spin on and need to add a couple gallons. I have seen several posts here about Antifreeze that  I called the guys I know here at United Engines. Both of their most experienced techs said any green Antifreeze that you buy anywhere is fine because all the additives in the newer product.

Just thought I would pass this on.

Bryan
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2010, 09:08:12 AM »

I've been using Napa Kool.  Is that  the correct additive?
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2010, 12:52:10 PM »

Clifford/Jim,

I was told there was a new type antifreeze out, very expensive, as it heats up it expands. For the expansion you have to leave the vent cock/filler cap open. Anyone here of this type?
John
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bryanhes
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2010, 07:50:30 PM »

I am not sure what additives are in the antifreeze. But from what the techs told me at United Engines (Detroit Dealer) was that any green antifreeze is fine. Also one of the local coach lines uses a Texaco or something similar. He said there is no need to pay the $16-$18 per gallon. These guys run them for a living so I am sure any green is ok.

HTH,
Bryan
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2010, 08:24:49 PM »

Bryan, not trying to argumentative here, but you need to read the DD spec I cited earlier in this thread.  If possible, you may want to read the article I wrote in BC magazine (Sept. 09).  Lots of details as to why you want to be careful to use the correct antifreeze. 

The following is an excerpt from the article: 

>>>>>
There are both SAE and ASTM standards for antifreeze.  The two most applicable ASTM standards are D-3306 for automotive antifreeze and D-6210 for what is called “fully formulated heavy-duty antifreeze”.  The fact that ASTM (and SAE) have unique standards for the two different applications reinforces the difference's in formulations.
>>>>>

In the article I go into a lot of detail about the difference between lower cost automotive antifreeze and antifreeze designed for HD diesel engines. 

Color does not define the antifreeze.  It is the ASTM standard that does and it is marked on the container.

Automotive antifreeze (ASTM D-3306) can damage your engine.  The 71 series is less likely to be damaged, but the 92 series and the modern four stroke can be damaged. 

The argument is somewhat like two stroke oil. You can choose to use DD recommended antifreeze or not.  You just need to be aware of what the results can be.

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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Bestekustoms
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2010, 09:54:16 PM »

Great Topic.

Well,If I Ever Get My Set Of 2009 BCM Magazines I Ordered Over 8 Weeks Ago. Angry I Will Be Able To Read About The Antifreeze Differences. Also I Wanted To Read All About Jims Engine Saga. ( I Cant Wait ) !!!

They Say You Learn Something NEW Everyday And I Got To Say...... I Had NO Idea That There Is Different Antifreeze For Diesels ?? Compaired To Cars. If That Info Had Not Come From Jim And Clifford I Would Have NEVER Believed It.

So..... Is This Also The Case With My Cuminns In My Dodge Trk ?? Or How About My 8.2 Detroit Diesel In My Crown ??  I Think The Answer Is Going To Be NO. Not Required On The Lighter Duty Engines.  RIGHT ??

Ok,So...If I Understand This Right Jim. Only The Series 60 And Kinda Sorta The 8V92 Need This Type Of Antifreeze And Or... Any Diesel That The Liners Are In Contact With Antifreeze.  Correct ??...Well I Think I Got It. Grin

Thank You
JOHN Cool



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bryanhes
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2010, 10:09:47 PM »

Jim,

I don't take it as argumentative. I am just going by what the dealer was telling me. I do have an 8V-71 dry sleeve, so maybe that is why he told me what he did about antifreeze not making a big difference. I could not find anything in my maintenance manual (GMC Truck and Coach Division X-6310) that stated anything about antifreeze types.

I also looked in my GMC Maintenance Manual (X-6814). The only thing stated in it about antifreeze is to use only Ethylene-Glycol type. It also states the advantage of a higher boiling point.

I am no expert, just posting what was relayed to me. Maybe there is a difference between the 71 & 92 that require more specific antifreeze.

I did try to copy and paste your link and it would not work. Do you have a copy of your article you can email me?

Thanks

Bryan
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Lin
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2010, 10:58:45 PM »

If cavitation is the main issue, there are additives for that.  Are there other reasons for the different standard?
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 07:21:45 AM »

Great Topic.





So..... Is This Also The Case With My Cuminns In My Dodge Trk ?? Or How About My 8.2 Detroit Diesel In My Crown ??  I Think The Answer Is Going To Be NO. Not Required On The Lighter Duty Engines.  RIGHT ??



Thank You
JOHN Cool





John,

I've been using the Napa additive in my Ford Power Stroke. Lin I think it is Napa Kool.

It says in the owner’s manual to us the motorcraft additive, which is the same as Napa or International. Shocked

My understanding is that the additive is like slime that sticks to the cylinder walls so the bubbles can’t reach it. Huh Huh
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 07:34:46 AM »

I bought and added a coolant additive that specifically applies to diesels from C&J here in Minneapolis. One jug did my whole system. I think it was $20 or so. I can get the name if anyone is interested.

RB
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 07:44:10 AM »

Guys you just don't go sticking and kind of green antifreeze in a 2 stroke read your manual and stay within the specs all the green stuff does not meet the specs.
And I don't use distilled water either I just balance my system with chemicals and a filter
I use the green stuff but I don't buy it at Wal-Mart or Auto Zone. 


good luck
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