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Author Topic: Diesel Antifreeze  (Read 12138 times)
rv_safetyman
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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2010, 07:48:03 AM »

John, I will try to gather a few of my recent issues and loan them to you when we get together this week.

Bryan, when I submit an article to BC, it becomes theirs from a publishing standpoint.  Mike and I have an agreement that I can publish the PDF version of the various articles after an agreed upon period of time.  Mike is looking into converting the technical articles into a PDF version for downloading for a reasonable fee.  The main reason that I and other authors are writing these articles is to support Mike's "adventure".  That way we can continue to have this great forum and an improving magazine.  I am know that this sounds negative, but I really want Mike to succeed.  Detroit Diesel must have changed their site.  Here is the new link:  http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/Coolant-Selections.pdf

Lin, as long as you test your fluid with test strips, you are probably OK.

The big issue is that automotive antifreeze has morphed in recent years to address aluminum engines.  To do that, the manufacturers have increased the amount of  phosphates.  The phosphates contribute to cavitation and, according to DD, some seal problems.  DD is adamant that the antifreeze for their engines should not have the phosphates.  That is also true of Cummins and CAT.  

When we refer to manuals that are many years old, recall that technology changes and I suspect that is the case with antifreeze as noted above.  When in doubt, I always check the DD (or CAT/Cummins) sites for the latest recommendations.

I recently bought DD Power Cool at a truck parts dealer for less than $14 as I recall (full strength).  The difference in price between that and automotive antifreeze just does not justify the risk in my mind.

As long as I am on my soapbox, antifreeze should be tested periodically.  The additives are sacrificial and need to be kept at the proper level.  Earlier in this thread Sean listed a source for these strips.  Note: the test strips have a shelf life, so get fresh ones.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
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Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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HighTechRedneck
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2010, 08:04:29 AM »

The main reason that I and other authors are writing these articles is to support Mike's "adventure".  That way we can continue to have this great forum and an improving magazine.  I am know that this sounds negative, but I really want Mike to succeed.  Detroit Diesel must have changed their site.  Here is the new link:  http://http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/Coolant-Selections.pdf



Thanks Jim.  Chad, Phil and I trully appreciate your support and that of the many other people either directly supporting BCM or cheering us on.  I don't want to send this excellent thread off topic, so I will just briefly share something I said in a PM I just sent to John since it applies equally to anyone with concerns.

John,

I'll look it up and see that you get them.  I apologize for the delay.

Unfortunately several balls got dropped around that time amidst the frantic pace of getting the January issue out at Christmas and the problematic run to Bussin' 10.

Anytime you have concerns about anything BCM, please don't hesitate to email or call me.

Thanks,
Mike


As a sidenote, in spite of the challenges we had on the trip, I am very glad we attended Bussin' 10.  We enjoyed it and the help Raymond, Tom and Jack gave me after the rally with the coolant leak problem that developed was priceless.
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2010, 08:05:18 AM »

Well folks,
I am not a expert on the above subject as I read the above posts regarding the correct anti freeze to use in our Detroit's.
Going back to the late 1950's when the Greyhound PD4104's and Scenicruiser were main line coaches and the power plants were 2-4/71's for the Scenicruisers and the 6/71 for the 4104's.
Greyhound used the green type of antifreeze and it was supplied by Texaco.
I wonder what the specs were back then for the Detroit's using antifreeze quite a bit different than today I bet.
I guess I am doing it all wrong but I use the green antifreeze that you buy from Wall-Mart and in all the years never had a problem with my 8V/71 in my P8M4905A.
I am going with Bryan and United Diesel mechanics idea in regards to what antifreeze that they recommend.
jlv Tongue

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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2010, 08:32:13 AM »

Well, I guess we can now add antifreeze to the list of subjects where we acknowledge that there are "believers" on both sides and have to agree to disagree Wink Grin

Anytime I see a thread on oil or marine wire, I cringe.  Now I will cringe when this subject comes up Smiley Wink Grin

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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bryanhes
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2010, 08:45:23 AM »

Is it possible that these SCA's and cavitation only apply to a wet sleeve engine? Mine is a dry sleeve 8V-71 so as far as I understand there is no possibility of cavitation  Undecided

Bryan
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Bestekustoms
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2010, 09:13:04 AM »

Thats A BIG..BIG..10-4.. Kiss

10-7
JOHN Cool
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2010, 09:14:28 AM »

Large diesel engines (including our DDC two and four stroke engines) require an antifreeze with special specifications.  The primary specification is that it must have low silicates and Supplemental Cooling Additives (SCAs).  

Automotive antifreeze that you buy at the cheaper automotive stores does not meet these specifications!  If the incorrect antifreeze is used, excessive cavitation of the cylinder liners can result.  Not all DDC engines have wet liners (where cavitation can result in engine failure if it breeches the liner wall), but it would still be good practice to use the correct antifreeze.


I have no idea what antifreeze is in my DD engine (8V92), so how do I test this, or must I simply drain it all out and be certain of the type of antifreeze?

I read about the test strips, but have never thought I needed to test, because the tester said it would not freeze. Are these strips for another purpose?

Also, is any damage done going to continue to do damage if the fluids are changed - in other words, will I have consequences in future miles as the reult of this?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 09:20:56 AM by PCC » Logged

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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2010, 09:16:09 AM »

Bryan, I can only pass on what has come up in previous threads.  Because your 8V71 engine is dry sleeve, a few folks have commented that the cavitation issue is not as significant (some say not an issue at all).  

DD does not make a distinction.  At some point, the piston bore structure has to be exposed to the coolant.  The issue becomes how much that structure dampens the vibration caused by the firing in the cylinder.

It is also argued that our buses don't see huge amounts of running hours and thus the rate of damage does not catch up with us.

Tom C had commented in another tread that he has seen engines where the cavitation has actually penetrated the liner in a very short time (something in the range of 100-200K miles as I recall).  This information based on his employment with Freightliner.

As I always say, I am often "over the top" on some of these issues, but I do try to base my decisions/comments on PUBLISHED information and REASONABLE engineering thought processes where ever possible.  When I review published information I always try to analyze what I am reading.  Is it just marketing propaganda?  Is it outdated?  Does it make engineering sense?  I did a ton of research on the subject when I wrote the article and I am convinced that this is a technical issue as opposed to a marketing scheme.

Perhaps I am sensitized a bit on this issue, as I THINK my Series 60 engine problem (seating of the liners) could be the result of incorrect antifreeze.  Certainly, my liners had some significant cavitation.

Jim
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 02:11:47 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2010, 09:21:47 AM »

So Jim, if i start a thread on whether i should use oil or antifreeze on my marine wire, that will probably put you over the edge huh? Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2010, 09:22:47 AM »

Define "edge".
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2010, 09:27:36 AM »

Point of no return.
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2010, 09:29:42 AM »

Are most of us in sight of the "edge" - either in front of us, or behind?
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2010, 09:59:20 AM »

Guys use what ever you choose too but I can tell you for sure if using a Methyl Alcohol or the Methoxy Propanal based green antifreeze with a high % of silicate like you find sometimes at the box stores it will be head gasket time in about 1 year on a 92 or a 71 series
.Fwiw you need to change the green antifreeze every 2 years where the pre charged and long life antifreeze is good for 5 to 6 years
The 92 series engines don't have a cavitation problem but the liners will rust so use a rust inhibitor,balance your system and keep it balanced



good luck
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2010, 10:07:42 AM »

Thanks, luv   (Is that appropriate on Valentine's Day?)
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Just Dallas
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« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2010, 10:12:13 AM »

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 11:46:51 AM by Now Just Dallas » Logged

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