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Author Topic: Diesel Antifreeze  (Read 12755 times)
rv_safetyman
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Jim Shepherd


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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2010, 10:29:50 AM »

Ed, you know darn good and well that I am already over the edge.  What a terrible way to treat a guy on valentine's day Smiley

I forgot another issue that makes me cringe:  "towing heavy trailers with my bus". Ed, you can add that to your list.

Keith, some folks say that using 3-way test strips (http://www.dieselmanor.com/docs/FG-teststrips.pdf) will give you a pass/fail.  I am not convinced of that.  It looks to me like the test strips will tell you what is missing in terms of additives and what your protection level is, but it does not seem to test for things you don't want in your antifreeze.

For that you will have to have your antifreeze analyzed by a lab.  That will give you a report of the physical properties as well as "wear metal, additives and other metal".  The quote in the previous sentence comes from my antifreeze analysis report.  I think most labs that analyze oil can also analyze antifreeze.  I suspect most truck dealer locations will have the kit and can get that done for you.  You can then compare the results to the DD recommendations in document I cited earlier.

I think the instructions are to take the sample when the antifreeze is warm.  I could not do that, but I think the results are still valid.  If you take the sample from the radiator drain, I would have a bucket under the drain and let the antifreeze run for a few seconds so that you are not getting abnormal sediment in the sample.  You can add the drained fluid back in the filler tank when you are done.

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2010, 10:32:52 AM »

Dallas, you owe me a keyboard!!!

Wow, you really hit the nail on the head.  I hope that Bob and Brian don't get p#%^$# off Smiley

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
bryanhes
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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2010, 10:38:13 AM »

I guess I am looking at why it would hurt the DD 71? Is he liner steel? Also I am thinking about the use of our engines vs. commercial "Heavy Duty" use. And id the antifreeze is ok in say my old hot rod with a 440 in it and never rusted through a cylinder wall why would it rust through a sleeve on my 71? Is it a difference between cast and steel sleeve? Just trying to decipher this in my mind.

Why would there have not been anything in my manuals other than Ethylene-Glycol stated. The 8V-71 has been around since 1957. If all these additives were a big concern why would it have not been published in them?

Not trying to argue this point but the Detroit coolant selections info only says 53, 71, 92 as being important to use Power Cool or an equivalent. But it does not state wet or dry sleeve. I guess some things seem to be more marketing driven sales techniques. Maybe because I am a salesman I am skeptical  Grin

Bryan
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2010, 10:47:28 AM »

Jim,

I always say it is better to get p!$$ed off than p!$$ed on,  Grin
I have a thick skin so I am good. I want to do what is best for my bus. But at the same time I have a DD article saying one thing, my manual showing another and then the techs at Detroit with 30+ years experience telling me green is fine. I would think they would be the first to tell me to buy the Power Cool as I would probably get it from them and they know it. Why would they turn away the buck? So you can see why this is a very debateable topic for me. I have no problem spending more money on certain things if I can see a benefit  Wink

Bryan


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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2010, 11:02:19 AM »

Bryan, the issue is not one of corrosion, but rather, erosion.  Cavitation is very complex.  Take a look at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation.  Gas engines do not have an issue with cavitation in the cylinder walls.  HD diesels do and the problem can damage the engine quickly.

I have tried to treat this subject lightly, but I am getting very frustrated!  I spent a ton of time researching and documenting the subject with links to good resources.  I did this so that we would not have to revisit this subject a bunch of times.

I don't mind folks second guessing my thoughts.  However, I get frustrated when they do so without seeing my documentation.  Here I am, again, spending a bunch of time to revisit what I spent a bunch of time presenting to BC magazine readers.  

Think I will pull a BK (the real one) and take some time off and let others deal with this.

For those of you want to CONSTRUCTIVELY discuss my article, I will be glad to do so.  There is a ton of room for me to learn from that discussion.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2010, 12:07:00 PM »

I don't mind folks second guessing my thoughts.  However, I get frustrated when they do so without seeing my documentation.  Here I am, again, spending a bunch of time to revisit what I spent a bunch of time presenting to BC magazine readers.  

You do have to realize that not everyone gets the magazine so we haven't all seen your research.

I need to check to be sure the stuff I've been using is okay for my Series 60.  I have just been buying green coolant.  I do add SCAs to the coolant as required after testing.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2010, 12:30:47 PM »

Jim,

I am not second guessing your thoughts. That is what makes us individuals and it is just that, your thoughts on information you have gleaned related to this subject. I also understand specifications as I work with them every day. But specs can also have varying alternates and equals that perform a similar end result.

I understand you have done your research on this but I have seen absolutely nothing distinguishing between wet or dry sleeve engines and the use of antifreeze type in the articles you just gave me. That was one of my main questions; Does this apply to a dry sleeved 8V71?

Bryan
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2010, 02:04:22 PM »

Call me stupid, but I can't seem to drop this.

First of all, I paid $10.91 per gallon last month for DD Power Cool.  Is it really worth all this drama to avoid doing it right???

Next, the reader has a few choices here when it comes to getting information on the subject:

1)  Read what the OEMs recommend.  All of the majors have the same recommendation.  

2)  Make your decision based on your source of choice. If it is contrary to what the OEMs recommend, then you are on your own.

3)  Read the technical articles in BCM.  The folks that write these articles have spent a lot of time doing the research and performing the work.

4)  Spend hours on the internet doing your own research.  When you are done, you can be the focal point of this and all the other redundant threads that will inevitably crop up.

For those of you who choose not to subscribe to BCM, then you will have to do without option 3 as your choice.  You seem to be willing to ask folks who have taken the time to write the articles to spend a ton more time to answer your question and then you don't want to listen.  I have spent several hours on this thread in the last two days and it is time I don't have.  I have tried to patiently answer various questions, but there has to be a limit.

Bryan, what more of an answer do you want on the 8V71 than I gave you a few posts ago?Huh  If you want to challenge DD and their technology, go for it.  

Now most of you know why the folks with good technology have left this board.

I am out of here.

Jim

« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 02:06:53 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Just Dallas
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2010, 02:33:58 PM »

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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2010, 02:51:13 PM »

AMEN Jim you keep doing what your doing . I enjoy reading your post and have learned so much from your experiences .
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2010, 02:58:30 PM »

Jim

Thanks for the info. I have seen the effects of cavitation in a loader at work. I am not smart enough to understand it all but will pay a few bucks for better antifreeze as I did for my oil.


John
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 03:37:31 PM by Jriddle » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2010, 03:09:41 PM »

Jim,

The skill and knowledge range among the board participants is quite wide.  I appreciate learning from those I believe have the experience and/or research information that makes their input valuable.  However, as I think Dallas was pointing out, you do not want to try to convince anyone of anything.  Everyone will make their own decisions and live with the consequences.  I guess I have been negligent in the coolant area.  I believed that automotive antifreeze with an anti-cavitation addictive was okay, but it appears that there are other issues to be aware of.  Clifford's warning about loosing head gaskets is one.  I have not monitored the system with test strips and now have that on my list.  I will probably start watching for deals on Power Cool or some other diesel coolant to have on hand.  Thanks for the help.
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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2010, 03:26:36 PM »

How about we all make a deal?  Whenever anyone, newbie or Sr. brings up oil weight, biofuel or coolant we just shrug our shoulders and smile...Jim don't do this to yourself again. We appreciate your input too much for you to leave over a self inflicted wound.
I think we all know that some of these issues will never be resolved and that's ok.
It's tough to watch these topics go up in smoke.
Feeling for you Jim.
RB
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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2010, 04:04:09 PM »

Jim,

I am catching up on this thread, so sorry I am late.

Here is the deal. Per your recommendation we went with the DD power cool (pink, extended life). I am unlike some of the others. When it comes to our engine, I don't mess around. Why? Because I am not as rich as some of the others on here, and I can't afford too many engines Grin (but then again, we run 15-40 in ours Grin). The biggest thing is that the others don't pull the newbies off track.

We don't mind spending some extra money, to save an engine (I just don't get the way some people do math Grin). You, and Clifford were the ones that probably saved us a ton of grief.

If others want to gamble with their engines...cool with me (I just feel bad for them).

Don't let the others pull you down. As they say, "There is a sucker born for every seat." Wink

God bless,

John
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« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2010, 07:38:31 PM »

Per my previous post in regards to Greyhound and the old PD4104's and Scenicruiser coaches using the Texaco green antifreeze back in the late 50's.
Greyhound used the Perry water filters on their equipment back then and I read what I could find out about Perry Water Filters the filters solved the many problems dirt and scale in the system and it keep the antifreeze in a non acid neutral state also prevented cavitation in the engine coolant system passages.
So today why not install a Perry coolant filter on our engine coolant system and just buy the standard antifreeze and not have to worry about the high dollar antifreeze that Detroit and the other engine companies are selling? Huh
Just a thought on my part  Tongue
jlv
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