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Author Topic: Diesel Antifreeze  (Read 12322 times)
bryanhes
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« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2010, 08:13:35 PM »

So that I was sure what I was talking about. I found no less than three locations including manufacturers that cited the difference between dry and wet sleeved engines and antifreeze required. Here is one of them.

Cylinder liners come in two designs - dry sleeved and wet sleeved. A dry sleeve is inserted into the engine block. The engine block has outer walls that contain the coolant around the cylinder so the dry sleeve slides inside that bore and the coolant never actually touches the cylinder liner itself. A wet sleeve is inserted into a block that does not have any outer cylinder wall. The coolant in the cylinder cooling jackets actually touches the cylinder liner itself. The liner has flanges and counterbores on it's outside diameter that are used to hold o-ring seals so that the coolant stays in the engine's water jackets and doesn't leak down into the engine's oil sump.

Typically dry sleeves are used on smaller engines while wet sleeves are used on larger engines. The reason for this is that larger engines create more heat and the wet sleeve does better job of conducting that cylinder heat to the coolant because the wet sleeve is in direct contact with the coolant. Engines like the 5.90 liter Cummins ISB use a dry sleeve while larger engines, like the 7.2 liter Cat C7 series and up, or the 8.3 liter Cummins ISC, 8.9 liter Cummins ISL, etc all use wet sleeves. Dry sleeves don't have as specific a need as the wet sleeve engines when it comes to coolants so if you have a Cummins ISB, you won't have to read any farther unless you're curious. The rest of this information applies to any RV owner with a wet sleeved diesel engine.

Pitting is a result of something best described as "cavitation". Wet cylinder liners are held in place in the engine block with o-ring seals and the clamping pressure of the cylinder head upon the upper flange of the liner. As the piston moves up and down there is also side to side force being exerted on the cylinder due to the throw of the crankshaft. This sideways forces causes these liners to vibrate back and forth. When the cylinder moves in one direction it moves away from the coolant, creating a small air bubble in it's wake. Eventually this air bubble bursts and the coolant, which is under pressure, bursts through and impacts the cylinder liner. This sudden jet of high pressure coolant can pit the liner, and if allowed to continue, will create a pinhole through it. Think of this action as giving you the same results as if you fired a pressure washer's meanest cleaning tip to your wooden sided house at point blank range. The results would be equally disastrous except all of this happens in microseconds in a diesel engine running at high RPM and it doesn't stop until you switch off the key.

Regular coolants just can't handle the effects of cavitation. They're fine for gasoline powered engines but then gasoline engines don't have the cavitation issue to deal with either so don't go stick Dexcool into your large diesel. Keep it for your passenger car or light truck. Cavitation needs the high compression ratios of a diesel engine with wet cylinder liners to begin. It's even greater on a cold engine because the increased slap creates more vibration. It's also greater at lower RPMs when lugging your engine that it is in a diesel engine that's revving. In order to counteract the effects of cavitation we need to use special coolants designed for wet sleeved diesel engines.

I guess if you have a dry sleeve such as mine you are probably fine with the Wal-Mart brand.

I also run the Perry water filter. My bus was ordered new with it and this is what is stated about a coolant filter:

What the Coolant Filter Does...
Coolant filters are used on most types of diesel engines. These filters help to maintain proper engine heat transfer by filtering solid contaminants from the coolant and by minimizing corrosion and deposits in the cooling system.

Properly installed and maintained, coolant filters help to provide:  
 A clean, well-functioning engine cooling system.
 Proper engine heat dissipation.  
 Engine efficiency through improved heat conductivity.
 Method to introduce necessary Supplemental Coolant Additives (SCA's) when required.

Coolant filters mechanically filter the coolant through a fine media, removing impurities such as sand and rust particles suspended in the cooling system. The coolant filter also conditions the coolant by softening the water to minimize scale deposits, maintains a neutral to slightly alkaline condition in the coolant, and prevents rust.
 
From what I have learned a dry sleeve engine with a coolant filter should be in good shape as long as it is changed out every 2-5 years based on the type you are using.

HTH anyone that was not FULLY understanding what I was trying to get at with a DRY SLEEVE engine. Cavitation is not possible!

Hopefully now this does not sound stupid or like someone being a sucker.

Bryan
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 08:22:48 PM by bryanhes » Logged
RickB
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2010, 08:39:45 PM »

I am officially shrugging my shoulders and smiling. Grin Grin Grin

"And that's all I have to say about that."

Forrest Gump
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John316
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2010, 09:41:08 PM »

So today why not install a Perry coolant filter on our engine coolant system and just buy the standard antifreeze and not have to worry about the high dollar antifreeze that Detroit and the other engine companies are selling? Huh
Just a thought on my part  Tongue
jlv

Simple...I don't want to take ANY chances with my engine. I am not like others who can afford a new engine. Just me, but I do NOT mess with the engine. I don't care what kind of fancy filters are out there. I just use the standard filter on ours, and run the recommended coolant through it. Honestly, I couldn't care a hoot less about saving 7 dollars a gallon, compared to risking (even very slightly) our engine. If you ask me, that is penny wise pound foolish.

For crying out loud, we are just talking about a pittance of seven dollars a gallon. Why not go for the best?

But, YMMV.

God bless,

John
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John316
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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2010, 09:59:10 PM »

So today why not install a Perry coolant filter on our engine coolant system and just buy the standard antifreeze and not have to worry about the high dollar antifreeze that Detroit and the other engine companies are selling? Huh
Just a thought on my part  Tongue
jlv

Simple...I don't want to take ANY chances with my engine. I am not like others who can afford a new engine. Just me, but I do NOT mess with the engine. I don't care what kind of fancy filters are out there. I just use the standard filter on ours, and run the recommended coolant through it. Honestly, I couldn't care a hoot less about saving 7 dollars a gallon, compared to risking (even very slightly) our engine. If you ask me, that is penny wise pound foolish.

For crying out loud, we are just talking about a pittance of seven dollars a gallon. Why not go for the best?  What is it going to hurt? We are not even talking about hurting the wallet, for seven dollars. Now, what really hurts the wallet is your engine rebuild. If you want to take that chance, be my guest.

Oh, yes. If I was a diesel mechanic, that was looking out for mostly my own best interest, then of course I would tell you to run regular car anti-freeze. If I tell you to use that, then you will probably come in looking for a rebuild, and viola, I have more work.

Guy, go with what the manufacture says. Do you skip oil changes, because you think that you don't need to? When do you stop following the manufactures recommendations?

But, YMMV. It is your engine, and you can rebuild it if you want Cheesy.

God bless,

John

Sorry, looks like this was a double post.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 08:50:18 AM by John316 » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2010, 04:33:01 AM »

Brian, a couple of things before I hang up my hat on this topic that over the years  I have seen the cheap antifreeze cause a lot of oil cooler,radiator, heater core, and head gasket problems.
Every 71 series that I have tore down that the owner hasn't taken care of his system using a cheap antifreeze the 71 series has to be bored to remove the hot spots where the bubbles (cavitation) have been trapped against the outside wall that make for a costly rebuild.
If the Wal-Mart stuff fits you needs go for it I have no problem with what you use , but a water filter will not take care of your system alone.
The green stuff comes in all different flavors choose the right one or it is heartbreak hotel down the road
 Now you  guys want to talk about OIL  lol


good luck
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 04:38:00 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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rip
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« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2010, 04:49:39 AM »

I just made  my yearly trip to W.W.Williams In Phoenix and was shocked at their prices. A 10 pack of coolant test strips $4.33. A case of full strength engine coolant $8.69 a gallon.They also had Shell rotella- t at $11.89 a gallon. I have always used DD collant and at these prices why go anywhere else.
    Don
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« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2010, 05:05:21 AM »

Yup Don I buy antifreeze at WW Williams also the cheapest I found I also buy my filters there when they have their special in the spring comes in a 3 filter pack oil filter and 2 fuel filters for 22 bucks a good deal.



good luck
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NewbeeMC9
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« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2010, 05:54:18 AM »

I just made  my yearly trip to W.W.Williams In Phoenix and was shocked at their prices. A 10 pack of coolant test strips $4.33. A case of full strength engine coolant $8.69 a gallon.They also had Shell rotella- t at $11.89 a gallon. I have always used DD collant and at these prices why go anywhere else.
    Don

Is this the Pink coolant?  I will say i am guilty of the cheap stuff because of being in a pinch to add some and have probably added about a gallon(plus distilled water) over the years to top off. 

However the cheap stuff is the same price as the  WW stuff you mention here.   What did you get here Huh

Also does anybody know if The DD pink stuff is the same as the VW pink stuff(G25 i think)? 
they went to pink to address aluminum issues.  At this price I will consider using pink stuff in all my vehicles. 

The old 7.3 boys stick with the cheap green stuff to avoid  silicates(IIRC) and the extended life stuff that causes so many issues.   But that was in the orange stuff and now in green stuff too.

Now if my pea brain translated this thread correctly. 

for 8V71 - use pink stuff and SCA and filter is good too if you have one
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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2010, 06:00:33 AM »

What color dye should I use to turn my green stuff pink?  I tried red dye but it turned purple.  Is purple good for stopping cavities on a 6-71?
Undecided
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« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2010, 06:35:48 AM »

Boy I am confused now. Huh
Back many many years ago Southwestern Greyhound Lines were running 6/71's in their equipment in the winter they would leave the buses running this was in Amarillo,Texas by the way and the reason was to keep the cooling systems from freezing up as they had no antifreeze in the system.
Orders were if a bus broke down and you could not keep the engine running was to drain the system to prevent dammage to the engine and cooling system.
The above information is from a book by Howard Suttle a retired Greyhound driver called Behind the Wheel on RT 66 Chapter: No Antifreeze page 197.
So perhaps Southwestern Greyhound Lines maintenance had the problem solved way before our time by not using Green Antifreeze in their Detroits just plane old tap water.
Interesting folks.
jlv
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RickB
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« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2010, 06:43:09 AM »

Still shrugging and smiling, shrugging and smiling.

Rick
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rip
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« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2010, 07:13:05 AM »

Yes it the pre -charged pink stuff.I do  buy all my filters there.
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bryanhes
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« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2010, 07:56:10 AM »

Clifford,

So are you saying that because of cavitation the outside wall of the cylinder bore was penetrated between it and the sleeve?

Thanks,
Bryan
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« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2010, 08:09:25 AM »

I'm like Rick Smiling. THE BOOK I Have has three pages on which type of antifreeze to use and what inhibitors to use and not use.

John
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kyle4501
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« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2010, 09:57:30 AM »

My understanding of cavitation:
When the diesel fuel ignites in the cylinder, it rapidly increases the pressure inside the cylinder. This creates the 'ringing' that vibrates the liner & the coolant at the surface cavitates when it can't move as fast as the liner does.
If the mass of the liner increases (thicker wall), the vibration intensity goes down & cavitation is reduced.

A friend was using spec antifreeze in his powerstroke Ford & lost 2 engines due to cavitation. They finally realized there was a problem with core shift in the engine blocks & it was the thin side of the cylinder wall where the cavitation was most active.

In summary,
Cavitation can be an issue in any diesel engine - the dry liner engines may be more resistant (due to thicker wall ? ), but are not immune.
Cavitation can happen in a gas engine when it 'spark knocks', but usually the piston fails before the cavitation can do any significant damage.  Shocked


If you are going to deviate from the manufacturers current specifications, you should at least know (not guess) why the manufacturer chose those specs.

(I have worked at many dealerships & repair shops, It may suprise you at what their motivation was behind the advice given to customers.   Sad  )

That is why I am so skeptical. . . .
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