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Author Topic: 1990 Country Coach 8V92 Engine Swap to 60 Series  (Read 10538 times)
zxzx9r
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« on: August 06, 2009, 12:16:33 PM »

Hello Im new to this site and would like some info. I have a 1990 Prevost country coach and it has a 8v92 engine. I want to change it over to a 60 series. I would like to know if it can be done, do I need a biger radator, will the dedec wire in the coach work on the newer dedec, what different gages will I need for the dash, will a 6 speed or a 10 speed trany work beter, is my gearing ok or will it work better with newer gearing, any moter mounts changes, weight concideration, maybe a ballpark on price from start to finish, ect. Any info would be great Thank You
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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2009, 12:38:26 PM »

Buy yourself a 1994 parts and maintenance manual from Prevost and it will cover both the 92 series and 60s easy to read with lots of drawings on the cradle, mounts and wiring with parts numbers .
You will need a smaller radiator with the air charger mounted on one side.
They both use a lot of the same parts 
Hope you are going to use a 12.7 and not the 11.1, for the transmission cheapest is going to be a auto shift Eaton a B500 cost big bucks without a core   good luck
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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2009, 12:52:10 PM »

Just curious.

Why the switch?

What shape is your 8v92 in and what are you gonna do with it ??

Inquiring minds want to know.

As far as an estimated cost to do the swap:

I have always been told by friends who have done major repowers to plan on a dollar amount and hope that it only goes 1/3 over budget but plan that your estimates will amount to 1/2 of the actual cost when you factor in all those pesky unforeseen things. Hoses, motor mounts, fabrication, coolant, after and intercoolers, etc.

If you are a mechanic by trade and an experienced do it yourselfer who can weld like there's no tomorrow with a minor in physics and mathematics, all bets are off!!!

good luck with your project...

Rick
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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2009, 01:14:27 PM »

Well I was hoping to use the engine for some tradeing value for the 60 series motor. The engine has 20,000 miles on the fresh rebuild. And the tranny is a 4 or 5 speed and it was put on a dino and checked out great. If I change the engine the 8v92 and tranny will be up for grabs.
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2009, 02:07:54 PM »

I put a lot of thought to this when I repowered mine. The little changes add up to be astronomical and very time consuming. I had a 1990 8v92 DDEC II, I ended up with a 1994 8v92 DDEC IV - Allison World 6spd with 18,000 original miles. That repower was costly and time consuming due to all the computer and wiring changes. I had to make new transmission mounts but the engine fell right in. I wouldn't want to deal with all the coolers and additional fabricating involved with changes to a series engine. If you are good at wiring and fabricating maybe it's worth doing, just seems like you are all set with what you have.
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2009, 10:32:30 PM »

If you're doing this for fuel mileage improvement-you're break even point is going to be somewhere around the 200-250,000 mile mark.  Is it worth it for the extra 1-2 mile per gallon-I don't think so.  8V-92TA is a good engine-just make sure you keep on top of the cooling system and you should get at least 500,000 miles out of the overhaul.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2009, 10:05:54 AM »

I'm not puting this motor in my coach for fuel economy, I want the torque of the 60 series motor and I'm try ed of the heat problems with the pyros. Plus that motor will put the resale value way up there. All the coaches with the 60 series motors are 95 and newer with 40 or 45 foot. They are 200,000 plus even the 40 footers are the same. Eveything 95 and newer is all electric. My 90 has LP system and that nice. Any ways If there is anyone that now if this can be done let me know. What kind of fabrication am I in for?
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2009, 12:19:46 PM »

I doubt you'll ever get back what you put into a Series 60 conversion.  A Series 60 put into an older coach isn't going to automatically make it worth as much as a factory Series 60.

If I was buying a repowered coach I would automatically discount the price I would pay versus a factory install.  How do I know the fabricator did as good a job as the factory would on installing a Series 60?

I'm not saying don't install a Series 60 for yourself, but don't install it for the next owner.  It almost never makes sense to install something based on future resale value unless you want it yourself.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2009, 12:27:17 PM »

Z,

Well, it's doable. It's been done by several of the owners on this board. The guys with the Autoshift seem happy and so do the ones with the B500's so its more of what you want. Personally I would go with the Fuller Autoshift. It does not require alot of plumbing for cooling, but you may need to find some clutch linkage to run the length of your coach. If you really want to increase the resale you probably should go with the Allison.

You may be close to $20,000 for the right engine and transmission. I would buy a complete wreck so you get the crossmembers and all the wiring. I know that DD changed Greyhounds DDEC units from DDEC2 to DDEC3 for some reason back in the day, so the wiring may be interchangable up to a point. You may not be able to use any of the cross members, but you will know what they look like going the wreck route. I would not even try this without a complete wreck to pull parts from.

I think the radiator will be OK. The 2 stroke probably needs more cooling than the 4 stroke.

The power curve and torque comes in at a lower RPM with the 4 stroke, so you will want to change the rear gear to get any benifit from the 4 stroke. Some are making power clear down at 1200 RPM, not even close to the 2 stroke.

I don't know how much of this you can do yourself. If you do it all, you may get by for around $35,000. Otherwise, I would guess around $50,000, but thats probably a little low.
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2009, 12:44:43 PM »

I personally wouldn't go with a Series 60 old enough to have a DDEC II.  Mine is a 1995 and I have a DDEC III.  The older Series 60 likely won't have the updates like the newer head bolts if it is that old.  (Ask Jim Shephard about the updated head bolts!)
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 01:28:49 PM »

Well I was thinking about the 12.7 60 series and do the wire changes to the dedec 4. And as far as the resale, Im not planning on selling it. It would be worth more to me not for someone eles. I might just put a new 6 speed allison and leave the 8v92.
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 03:26:14 PM »

I'm not sure what you gain by going to a 6 speed Allison with an 8V92.  You still have the heat and low torque issues.

Your other post specifically mentioned the resale going way up, but if you're not ever selling it shouldn't matter.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2009, 03:35:52 PM »

zxzx9r;

I have a 95 gillig country coach with an 8V92TA and the HD4060 6Sp with 4:56 gears, I love it. now I do tune the engine my self but I get 8.8-8.9 out on the open road at 68mph. out here in cal I go up most hills at 55-60 mph with out any troubles. I pull my 7400lb 03 Chevy 3500 4x4 crew cab dully from time to time and I still get 8.5 mpg.

If you change to a 60 engine and 6Sp Allison trans you will need to change the rear end gears and if you keep the 8V92 and change the trans to the 6Sp Allison you need to change rear end gears

Hope this helps

Don
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luvrbus
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2009, 03:48:06 PM »

Belfert, how much torque do want it is not that hard to get 1400 to 1550 lbs from a 8v92 the new DD13 isn't much better   

good luck
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2009, 03:52:42 PM »

What is a 8V92TA and the HD4060 6Sp with 4:56 gears? What is the differance from the 8v92 and the 8v92ta? What is the gross weight of you coach? Will this pachage go in a 90 prevost?
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2009, 03:56:44 PM »

What is the gear that I have in the 1990 prevost with 8v92 and 5 speen auto tran?
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2009, 04:02:10 PM »

As Brian mentioned, you must be careful of the donor engine Shocked Shocked.  There are lots of Series 60s with 700K miles that have a bad rod or piston.  If you get an engine with lower miles, you may be getting into EGR and most folks stay away from them.

I am surprised that folks have not brought up the height issue.  They touched on the gearing issue (30% taller gears are strongly recommended.  However, the height may be the deal killer.  I suspect that the Prevost will have the same issue as Eagles and that is that you will probably have to raise the floor structure a few inches.  That is hugely labor intensive.

To avoid the height issue in MCI and Eagle buses, folks have gone with the Cummins ISM.  Smaller engine but pretty darn good power and torque.

Jim
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2009, 04:09:09 PM »

Concerning your gearing, the best way to answer that is to have you tell us what your RPM is at a given speed.  If you run the typical bus tire (~490 rev per mile) and you turn the engine at 2100 rpm at ~ 72 mph, you have 3.73.  I am not sure what gears were available in a Prevost, but with typical bus tires and a 1:1 top gear (any non-World Allison), you would need about 2.73:1 rear end ratio to gear according to DDC recommendations.  Doubt that ratio is available.  Some folks have adapted truck rear ends to get that tall of gearing.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2009, 04:48:58 PM »

Well from all the info so far I might be better off to keep the 8v92 and up grade it to a 8v92TA. What would be a good tranny and gearing to use? The HD4060 6Sp or B500 might be cool, im not sure what kind of gear I can get?
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2009, 05:05:37 PM »

The TA satnds for turbocharged and aftercooled. You have a 8v92 TA. I wish I had one.

Rick
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2009, 05:06:53 PM »

If that bus has the original engine it is a 8v92TA DDEC 11  450 or 475 hp. 
There was 2 rear gears ratios for 1990 model 3.73 an 3.36.The 3.36 being the most common     good luck  
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2009, 05:18:27 PM »

Think you have a TA engine. You likely have the toughest Electronic Allison available for your 92 without purchasing a World. The World will have an OD, how fast do you want to go?

If you are having pyrometer issues, they could be false because the DDEC will not let you hurt your engine and the ATEC will not let you hurt the transmission. Both will derate the power or shutdown if they senses any issues.

HP downloads are probably available for your computer from DD, but you should have 50,000 break in miles before you open it up very much.

You are driving a piece of heavy equiptment, it will never drive like a sports car. The running gear you have is pretty much top of the line and should give you excellent service. If you really need it to run, sneak it into Bakersfield and Don can make it do wheelies, if that's what you want. After that, bring it by here and I'll put a parachute on it for you!
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 06:07:05 PM »

Mine is a 94' Prevost H3 w/ silver 8v92ta DDEC II stamped 500 HP (supposedly dynoed @ 515) with 1650 ft.lbs. - I run with the S60's all day long - now mileage is another story - FWIW
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2009, 07:06:41 PM »

Belfert, how much torque do want it is not that hard to get 1400 to 1550 lbs from a 8v92 the new DD13 isn't much better   

It is the original poster talking about more torque.  I already have a Series 60.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2009, 07:40:05 PM »

I've had 2 series 60 trucks, good engines, not my favorites. The 8v92 TA is just as good, definetly different, and not as efficient but some people just love that 2 cycle sound. If I could pick my engine it would be cummins. I've had 80k lb trucks approach 9mpg. I had cummins do the rods and mains in one of my N14 cummins @ 580k miles. Dealer said I threw my money out the window, parts looked new.
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2009, 07:59:29 AM »


Take a look under a Prevost with a series 60 and compared the differences to a Prevost with an 8V92. You can not put a Series 60 and B500 in an older Prevost that has an 8V92. The length of the Series 60 and B500 is not the problem, itís the diameter of the B500. The 40 foot Prevosts with the B500 have a different tag axle. It loops over the top of the transmission instead of going under it. Itís not just the tag axle thatís different, so you just canít swap axles either, the newer axle mounts differently, the radius rods mounts are in different locations and the air bags mount in different locations. If you have a short wheelbase 45 foot pre-Series 60 (and I donít think there is such a thing) then you maybe able to install a series 60 and B500 in itís place. The only reasonable choice you have for a Series 60 swap in place of the 8V92 and 5 speed is a Series 60 DDEC IV and Eaton Ultrtashift (model rto16910b-dm3). Donít use an Autoshift, donít put a clutch pedal in your bus. The Ultrashift is a 10 speed with a 2 speed reverse with 10th being an over driven ratio. It will work fine with any ratio your automatic Prevost came with. 3.33 would be the theoretical ultimate putting the RPM at about 1400 at 70 MPH, 3.56 would be about 1500 at 70 and a 3.73 would be about 1600 at 70 MPH. The fuel efficiently peak is 1400 for the 12.7 Series 60.

The DDEC IV engine is the most desirable. Evidently most people donít know that several mechanical improvements were incorporated with the DDEC IV change. The most important being that oiling nozzles were added in the block, spraying under the pistons to provide more cooling, the rod and wrist pin were changed from the old 2 stroke design, the rod bolted to the wrist pin to the more convention style of the wrist pin going through the top of the rod and the piston design changed from cast iron to steel. A DDEC IV level ECM is necessary for the engine and transmission to communicate. The ECM backs off the throttle when the transmission shifts, you just hold the throttle on the floor and the computers take care of the rest. I bribed a truck salesman to take fa test ride in a trucked with one of Eaton Ultrashifts. Press the accelerator and it reacts exactly like an automatic, it shifts just like an experienced driver would shift a manual transmission. You can feel it shift, an example would be an automotive automatic with a firm shift kit. We were on the ramp to the freeway and already in 9th gear, it shifted to 10th just as we merged into traffic. I was concerned it that it would be shifting continually at highway speeds, it didnít. We to let it lug down to 55 MPH before it shifted down to 9th . It is much slower accelerating than a conventional automatic, so if you make extra money racing your bus, you wonít like the Ultrashift. You have to hold the brake on a hill. One of itís competorís, the ZF Astroinc requires the bus to be equipped with ABS and it will apply the brake for you. Of course the older coaches donít have ABS so ZF is really not an option. I havenít done any research on the Meritor version. If you know someone at an Allison rebuilder you will find that the B500 is not nearly as reliable as the 740 or 755. Itís not uncommon for the B500 to fail at 300,000 miles in a seated coach. I know they donít give much trouble in converted coaches, but even if it would fit in my bus the only thing I could afford would be a used B500 from a seated coach with who knows how many miles or how it was maintained. The going price for used B500s is around $7000. I know you can get it checked on a dyno but that only proves itís good that day at that time, itís better than no test all but not much.  Considering a B500 rebuild costs around $9000 dollars I just canít take the chance of installing a used B500. The used Ultrasifts are selling for $3000 to $5000. They came with a 750,000 mile warranty when they are new (thatís pulling 80,000 pounds) and they cost about 10 grand new. Other advantages for the Ultrashift include increased fuel economy, lighter weight, no oil cooler needed, the shift style is programmable, it has a touch pad that looks very similar to an automatic, it can be shifted manually using the touch pad if you want to control which gear itís in and of course it will fit behind the Series 60 when installed in the older Prevosts. To me it just makes sense. Itís not as smooth or does not accelerate as fast as an Allison. Do your own research and make up your own mind.



The distance from the rear of the frame to engine mounts is the same on the Series 60 and the 8V92, the difference is that the 8V92 mounts bolt to the transmission and the Series 60 mounts bolt to the bell housing. Thatís about 8Ē inches difference. The Eaton Ultrashift is about that much shorter than the Allison 755. You may not need to change the length of the drive shaft. The 8V92 radiator will be more than adequate, it and related components (fan, miter box) will have to moved inboard as close as possible to the muffler to allow room for the intercooler. I plan on using the original fan drive, air filter and muffler. I know you think that is going to be restrictive, the 12.7 has 40% more displacement, but 8V92 is a 2 stroke it uses a 100% more air than 4 stroke of the same size. Combine those facts with the fact that the Series 60 will operated at a much lower RPM than the 8V92 did. I will confirm my theory with a manometer. The series 60 is taller, if your bed is against the rear of the bus itís not a problem. The original inspection cover is larger enough but it  will have be modified into a box or small dog house style. If you have a cross bed then it would probably be best to raise the floor all the way across like the Series 60 coaches come from the factory. The Series 60 engine is mechanically louder. I may need to add additional sound deadening material to rear of the bus.

Ken    
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« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2009, 08:28:04 AM »

Nice input Ken. Thanks for the detail.
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« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2009, 08:53:05 AM »

That is good input on the older Prevost but this I do know a 1994 year H model will accept the 60 series without  any fab work only the the cradle.
They came with both engines a 500hp DDEC 8v92 or a very weak 11.1 series 60 and both were offered with the b500 Allision.     good luck
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« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2009, 09:15:20 AM »

As mentioned before-to get around the size difference between the Series 60 (mostly the height) and the 8V-92TA, just use a Cummins M11/ISM.  They can be built to 500hp and 1550lb/ft torque for RV use.  The one big disadvantage to using the Series 60, you'll be restricted to service at Freightliner, Western Star and Sterling dealers (Mercedes-Benz owned).  Even though other dealers still work on Detroits since at one time all manufacturers offered the Series 60 before Detroit was bought by Freightliner, they still have to buy the parts from a Detroit dealer, and most then add their profit margin making the parts more expensive.  Plus, since the other manufacturers are no longer offering the Detroit products, the many of the mechanics are not certified for Detroit products.
Compared to Cummins that is still an independent engine manufacturer and virtually all truck manufactuers offer Cummins as an option-so service and parts can be obtained from any truck dealer.
While the Series 60 is quite possibly one of the best engines ever made, the Cummins ISM for RV use is just plainly a good idea. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2009, 09:48:34 AM »

So how does the cummins compare in size and weight to an 8V71?
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« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2009, 01:13:45 PM »

Z,

You can't beat Ken's deal for a low mileage 60 Series and Ultrashift swap. I'd give him the bus and the $25,000 when it's done, I'm really thinking about having him do mine. You can't beat having someone who knows up grading the DDEC wiring, finding all the parts, and getting it all working for that price. Jump on it!
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« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2009, 04:01:47 PM »

I'm not advertising for work, I'm saying that about 25,000 should be a reasonable charge for the swap. The parts are out there, the bus engine or the bus oil pan and valve cover are the only things that will require an effort to find. I've looked at doing this swap for about 4 years. Now that my 8V92 is leaking coolant past the o-rings around the cylinder liners the swap has become more important. My post was meant to convey every thing I've discovered about this swap. I hoped that most people would find some humor in my vast knowledge. After all there is some truth in humor or is it humor in truth??

Ken
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« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2009, 09:33:50 PM »

HH Ken said:

"If any of us were concerned about something being cost effective we would be driving an automobile and staying in tents or hotels. You know Iím right."


Although I am a but not, I'm sure there are MANY who will disagree with that statement. Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2009, 10:52:27 PM »

The Cummins ISM is about the same length-or within just a few inches of the 8V-92TA-and it is 300 lbs lighter, requires less radiator, but you need to add the air to air intercooler, and change the electronics to except the Cummins engine.   Good Luck, TomC
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