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Author Topic: I am so hacked off!  (Read 5512 times)
DaveG
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2009, 04:25:27 PM »

John 316

To answer your question a bit more directly, I think it might be difficult to get an accurate torque with the dry fasteners. Obviously the correct torque value is the goal, and any way you achieve that is probably okay, but again I think that the best way to install stud pilot wheel attaching hardware is with the 1" gun, capable of 1400 ft lbs, and that said the user of said tool needs to be a bit savvy, not just ram it down until..until when?  Anyway, like I said in a previous post, there are no tire shops/dealers etc that I am aware of that torque stud pilot hardware.

My favorite is the hub pilot type...for many reasons but one of which is that the wheel hardware (stud-2 drops and nut-between the nut and captive washer-2 drops) get lubricated and torqued. My shop used a 600 ft lb torque wrench for about 5 years, and a couple of years ago went to a torque stick. I would not bother changing a stud pilot vehicle over to hub pilot, but if all things were the same, I'd pick the hub pilot.
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John316
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2009, 04:42:10 PM »

John4104, I agree. A calibrated torque wrench is the way to go. Pricey though.

Dave, makes sense. Kinda what I figured.

God bless,

John
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2009, 04:45:13 PM »

Gentleman, A lot of times in using a cheater pipe in my previous life, all kinds of weird things happened. For one thing, it could have sheared because of uneven torques being applied through the cheater pipe. Crap happens and I'll bet you won't get any credit towards a new one unless the directions say you can use a cheater pipe, but I doubt it.

Disclaimer: I have never changed a tire/wheel on a bus, so I'm only offering my opinion on what could have happened.

Now, when I have to do that I will use the proper tools to do the job and do it properly, otherwise I'm calling Coach Net and have someone do it for me with me watching every move they make and get the understanding up front how it's done. Wink

A good thread and discussion, keep it nice guys, a lot of experience here that is very beneficial....Right On! Grin

JMHO,

Paul
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2009, 05:28:59 PM »

Well not going to say anyone is wrong here. But will tell you how I do it. I first Use my 1' impact to take them off. To install I use my 3/4" impact to snug them up. Then I get my torque wrench out and tighten to 500 foot pounds. Then I take my 3/4" impact and hit them again.

I have had my 1' hammering away and had to beat on the socket with my 2 lb sledge at the same time to brake wheel nuts with 175 lbs of air.

How I do it
John
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 06:02:06 PM by Jriddle » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2009, 05:33:11 PM »

John,

I picked up a 600Lb torque wrench last week for $69.00 S now I have the torque multiplier (which I was sure to calibrate off a 1200 Ib snap on torque wrench) and my 5 ft long 600Lb Chicargo.

I now also take my time and use a jack to hold the multiply er or Chicago in place.

John

PS Paul the coach net boys will use the 1" truck tool and over torque your studs.





 
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Jerry32
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2009, 06:17:34 PM »

air impacts put thos nuts on pretty tight since they use 180 lbs of air pressure. I tried taking them off with a air gun 1" size and no could do. I bought a makits 1"  electric impact wrench and takes off the ones they put on with their 180 lbs of pressure. Since we have ac power in the rigs it is good to carry on the road too in case off a flat. Jerry
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Don4107
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« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2009, 09:28:53 PM »

Jerry, very interesting.  Had no clue (not a rare thing) that Makita made a 1" gun. 

Thanks
Don 4107
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2009, 05:13:40 PM »

Well not going to say anyone is wrong here. But will tell you how I do it. I first Use my 1' impact to take them off. To install I use my 3/4" impact to snug them up. Then I get my torque wrench out and tighten to 500 foot pounds. Then I take my 3/4" impact and hit them again.

I have had my 1' hammering away and had to beat on the socket with my 2 lb sledge at the same time to brake wheel nuts with 175 lbs of air.

How I do it
John

Hey boys, better pay attention here and file this one away in your memory banks, 'cause it is a nugget....stubborn lugs sometimes won't budge with a 1" impact, so take a BFH or other type/size hammer and while hammering away with the impact gun also whack the socket with your favorite
BFH or other. This trick has not failed me in 31 years. Thanks for the reminder.
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2009, 10:26:22 PM »

It isn't hard for me to figure that a lubed nut will torque down easier and you can get a more precise poundage.  I have wondered about the "CAUTION: Do not lubricate nuts or studs"  in my maint procedures book.  I have run these things down 75 times maybe.  It is a chore and I have many times gotten my hands stung by the bar "creaking and crunching" down after it gets tight.  Real pain, especially if you forgot to wear gloves.

Last week I installed all my brand new tires on the Winnie.  Nuts again.  This time I took the nuts in to the wire wheel and brushed all the mating surfaces to bright and I also did the threads on the inner sleeve stud/nut.  I also went at the wheel studs with gusto.  The darn things went on and tightened like they had been greased.  I always clean up my fasteners before I reassemble.  Have not even a hunch why I never did it for wheel nuts.  Of course I over torqued it....again.  Losing a nut just scares the bejesus out of me since I saw a friend unscrew a lug nut from the front wheel of a MCI 9 while we were waiting to board the bus to be driven down from the radar site.  Thousand foot drop offs and no guard rails or berm and the bus was loosing a wheel.  The driver was badly shaken when he saw what my buddy had in his hand.  He asked him "where did you get that?".  I told him "you won't have any trouble spotting it Sleuth.  It goes on the empty/bare stud.  Hope you have a lug wrench that fits it."  He was so put off he never spoke to us for a month.  "just lean on that 1 incher, huh?"  #$@#&*(*) 

Use the frigging torque wrench.  Maybe not drink as much while you are working on crap that others are using in a life threatening application.  How could they let that happen.  At Americas tire store the supervisor goes over every lug nut with a torque wrench AFTER the tech has already done so.  Wouldn't you think a bus tire would be treated in mandatory "safety" procedure?  Where is that Tort Lawyer?  Angry I'll straighten this out. Shocked  Just kidding. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


I don't have a torque wrench that goes to 300 pounds so go ahead and laugh at me.

John
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2009, 07:07:49 AM »

Here in Minneapolis there is a major commercial tire shop called Royal Tire.  I have been told they ONLY use torque wrenches on all their tires to get the final torque down.  They have been doing this since 2000.  So, yes, big tire companies are using torque wrenches now.  I personally follow the installation instructions in my bus manual for proper lugnut installation.  It is explicitly stated in the manual to torque the nuts with a torque wrench to 450 ft/lbs.
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« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2009, 07:17:14 AM »

While I was @ Setra North America Headquarters last week I was pleasantly surprised to see a tech torquing the wheels that he'd just put back on a bus! I even made it a point to tell the shop foreman I was impressed and he said "it's the only way we do it here!" FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2009, 07:54:34 AM »

BrianD,

That is great to hear. We will keep them in mind if we ever need something while we are in that area. It used to be (sometimes still is) rare to find a shop that does things right.

BK, It is nice that a company like Setra is doing things right, and not taking short cuts. Maybe they build their buses with the same mentality (what do you think Grin Grin Grin).

God bless,

John
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2009, 09:44:06 AM »

About 10 years ago just a few months after i bought our used jeep we had a flat tire.  It took me 40 minutes to bust loose the nuts and i almost gave up a couple of times.  Good thing we weren't way up in the woods. Since then i tighten  my wheels myself. I asked a tire shop what they torqued them to and it seemed to me he said they torque all wheels to something like 150 or 200 lbs.  In my book for the jeep it says 75 lbs.!!  If they won't hand torque they don't get my business!!!!   On the bus i have a torque wrench and a 12:1 multiplier. I got it after i could not remove the back wheels with anything that i owned, or my neighbor, who had a bus, owned. I also bought an Ingersoll Rand 1/2" impact wrench  (2135 TI )  that has a torque range of 50-600 lbs. and max torque of 625 forward and 700 reverse.  1250 blows per min., weighs just under 4 lbs. , 5.0 cfm average air consumption  and at load is 24cfm.   It says that it will loosen a nut tightened to 1000lbs in 6 seconds.  Has 4 position switch so you can select the torque range you want. I have a small compressor so i can only take off about 3 nuts before i have to wait a minute or so for pressure to build. I can put my nuts back on at a lower pressure and then hand tighten with the torque wrench and the 12:1. My wheels need to be between 450-500lbs so i set it for 480.  1968 5A   Grin
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« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2009, 10:05:02 AM »

Once again,
Dry torque is more repeatable than oiled (assuming clean threads)

Different oils have different 'slickness'.

Over tightening the lug nuts leads to:
- reduced rim thickness under the nut
- stretched studs
- pulled threads in the nut
- warped flanges
- etc
All of which leads to reduced strength of the assembly & creates needless replacement of parts.

If a nut is properly torqued to specs - which includes a re-torque at 50 miles, subsequent inspections will verify they are still tight.

Loose nuts are a result of improper installation or defective parts.

As far as torque accuracy, it is simple physics -- Force multiplied by the distance from the pivot (nut).
If you can do the math, you can check the calibration of your 'clicker' torque wrench at home.
 - clamp a bolt in a vise,
- stand on a bathroom scale,
- push down on your horizontal torque wrench,
- note the bathroom scale reading when the torque wrench 'clicks'
- work the math to see how accurate it is.

You can also experiment with different ways of holding the wrench & see how that effects the accuracy.



The manufacturers have engineers looking at these things & generating specifications based on understanding ALL of the forces involved & backed up with detailed testing. They have documentation that details every aspect of the tests & are repeatable.

Some individuals will tell you to ignore the manufacturer's specs (because they let the wheels fall off, etc) & do it their way because it has worked for them for years. These individuals have no documentation of how the specs were/ were not followed.



So, who you gonna believe, the manufacturer or someone with good intentions?

It may be your equipment, but if it is operated on a public road, it may be my life you are gambling with. . . .
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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2009, 10:17:09 AM »

Well there ain't no state law or OSHA reg on the subject so JUST GUESS WHERE THEIR MOTIVATION COMES FROM???  I meant to yell and get red in the face.  That is an example of "our" system working.  Tort law.  I used to have cocktails with a Tort Law attorneys clique once or twice a week.  You should hear the stories from that side.  It isn't long till your conservative blood boils and you hear yourself saying "we gotta do something about those conscienceless SOBs".

I had a lady friend take her Mazda in for new tires.  She went to the shop I suggested and bought the tires I suggested.  On the way home and on the freeway at 70 MPH, her right rear wheel fell off.  It ground down the brake drum and some other stuff, as you might imagine.  A good Samaritan put her wheel back on after retrieving it from a quarter mile down the road.  She drove back to the shop and she said they laughed at her when she asked that they look at her car and check it for damage.  The manager asked "what is the point?".  That afternoon I visited the shop after hearing the story.  After the manager confirmed that he would do "nothing" I went straight to slow burn.  I got in his face and told him that he would repair her car in one hour after she arrived the following morning before going to work OR he would have her delivered a rental car and he could do the work in a couple days.  I told him to pick one of those options or I would make my business to see that she OWNED that franchise and he would work many years to pay his fair share of the judgement.  His face went from smirk to red to purple and then to white as I explained.  He said "I need to make a call" and went into his office.  He returned a few min later with an even whiter face and asked "what address should we have the rental car delivered to" and can she drive the car to the Mazda dealers?"  I said No No NO!  Have a tow truck pick up the Mazda at the same address.  He nodded.  All went well and I assured my friend that they just needed to fully understand Tort law to see the need to do the right thing.  This is not a story about ME.  My conservative heart will always defend your right to get satisfaction and force fair dealings if it comes to that.  You would not believe the stories....you just wouldn't.  I was suspect myself and researched a couple til I started giving them credibility.  No wonder those juries did what they did and awarded that much.  God bless them.

This is about bus safety and your options...as I see them.

Thanks,

John
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