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Author Topic: I am so hacked off!  (Read 5517 times)
JohnEd
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« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2009, 10:20:14 AM »

Kyle,

Well said!  Well said, indeed!

Thank you,

John
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« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2009, 10:40:02 AM »

JohnEd,

Well said! I agree with you. It just isn't worth it to me, to save somebody a couple of minutes (or me), and not torque. I understand that "industry standard" might say it is okay to ram them on with a 1" gun. Fine, if they want to and accept the liability. I won't. I will do things right! We have an excellent reputation in town for doing things right. I am certainly going to do things right when it endangers other.

God bless,

John
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« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2009, 05:36:40 PM »

As always, we'll "Do It Our Way"! Sound familiar anyone! Wink

Some say to lube, have done it for years, others say to run the nuts on dry, have done it for years, some say to use an impact, have done it for years and no problems, and on and on.

I have read some articles on industry standards, and it appears not many people do it that way. And the guy with the heavy 1" impact is trying to install/slam 18 wheels/tires on a big rig, fast. Cause that's what the boss wants, cuts down on labor, equals profit for them. I must admit, I haven't seen any wheels rolling down the road that wasn't attached, see lots of gators though!

BK's way seem to not be the norm! Grin

My dos centavos,

Paul

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« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2009, 05:41:51 PM »

Somewhere in my internet travels, I had found a truck tire shop that I can no longer find.  They basically said that with a 1" impact if you let it hammer for 3-5 seconds, the toque will be about right.  The problem comes when you hear them hammering for 20-30 seconds.
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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2009, 06:36:37 PM »

As noted in my thread about MCI lug nut sizes, I replaced all of the lug nuts on my bus today.  I used a Blue Point 1 inch air gun at 140 psi nominal, on a 3/8" 75 foot air line, and by coincidence hammered a couple of nuts about 6 times, maybe 3 seconds (I was trying to just seat them, but I put a couple on harder to seat the wheel).  They were within 50 pounds of correct torque, which I was setting at 450 ft lbs with a Blue Point torque wrench.  Maybe there is something to this theory after all.  I am, as a result of this little exercise, going to do some research into the science behind the torque required to remove a wheel nut.  I think there is more to this than meets the eye.  I think the effect of the ball taper of the nut has a far more significant effect on the torque required to undo a nut that I first gave it credit for.

brian
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« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2009, 07:42:01 AM »

FWIW, regarding torque of air tools, I recently sent my IR 261 3/4" impact in for repairs, and the shop in SoCal called to tell me that is reached 1,300 ft lbs in BOTH directions.
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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2009, 07:53:41 PM »

From GM coaches to MCI designed and owned most of the time by Greyhound. With there billion plus miles of experience. There maintenance manuals say toque the wheel nuts so I will follow there experience and Toque mine.
John
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luvrbus
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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2009, 09:16:44 PM »

We all do it it different but I don't buy into the dry torque is better than a wet torque.I love to build the 8v92 engines and even the rod bolts to the piston calls for a lube on the 2 bolts.
The reason I use a little never sezie on my lug nuts is because if you guys watch your aluminum wheels when the nuts are dry and torqued it will always have shavings roll up you can see and is the biggest failure of wheels because the holes cut deeper with each change and then they crack.
I do check my wheels before every trip and never found one lug nut loose in 20+ years and another thing I have never replaced a stud except when going from steel to aluminum wheels.
I will keep doing it till someone can prove that it doesn't work.
I have a 1in I/R gun set on 480# with a 1/2 inch air supply @120 # supply 3 hammers you have 480# according to my 800# Proto torque wrench  

good luck
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 06:43:47 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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John316
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« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2009, 04:44:20 AM »

Thanks for the post, Clifford. I knew that you would have good, sound advice. I also have been using sneeze on our studs.

Thanks again.

God bless,

John
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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2009, 05:06:21 AM »

Clifford,

If never size by giving a little lubrication helps stop the nut  from peeling the aluminum away, I am for using it.

John
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blue_goose
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« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2009, 05:18:49 AM »

I must admit, I haven't seen any wheels rolling down the road that wasn't attached, see lots of gators though!

Paul, there are lots of wheels that do come off each year.  I am sure that it is not because they used lube or didn't use lube.  The reason is because they didn't put them on the way they should be and also didn't check them to make sure they stayed on.
Where I lived in Mooresville NC, there was a prison guard killed with a wheel that came off a tractor while he was guarding prisoners cleaning the road. 
I had a wheel and tire cross the road about 100 ft in front of me in SC two years ago.  This one crossed I-95 keep going into the woods and didn't kill anyone.
From my own like of checking, I lost the hub on the lift drive because the lugs got loose and I didn't check them like they should have been.
Glad this came up, haven't checked mine lately think I better do that before another trip.
Jack
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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2009, 10:05:55 AM »

Clifford,


The thing that sets you way apart from the norm is your method.  Any can develop their own process and be successful and safe if they do what you did.  Make the change and monitor it closely till it is proved.  Collect the history and share it.

I would add one thing to your process and that is what I just discovered the other day.  I wire brushed all the contact areas of the nut and cleaned the threads really good, wire brushing the studs and exterior threads of the nuts.  I think the biggie was cleaning the part of the nut that jams up against the rim.  My tightening used to involve a lot of creaking and snapping and the cleaning stopped that even with dry assembly.

If I were getting metal movement from the nut/rim contact I think I would be "lapping" the two together and numbering and  mating the nut to the hole.  How much do those rims cost, now?

Now, just why do the mfr.s go to the trouble of warning us to "not grease' the nuts on stud centered wheels?  What is the science/engineering ?  Just for background now as I am a believer cause nothing succeeds like success.

Thanks again for the info,

John
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The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
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« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2009, 10:34:56 AM »

JohnEd, not all manufactures of studs and nuts recommend not using lube if you check they have different plating ( colors will be gold or zinc ) on the nuts and studs I use the gold color and they recommmend lube.
 
FWIW the guys that use the hub centered system on the newer buses have a far better system than us that have stud centered I am looking for that system if you come across a model 20 NJT Eagle that somebody is parting out.

The 22.5 9 inch aluminum wheels are 515.00 each (buying without sales tax in Oregon) now polished on both sides, the powered coated inner steel wheels were 180.00 each and don't ask why I wanted polished on both sides LOL but I will tell you anyway it makes for easier rotating

good luck
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 11:01:20 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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NJT 5573
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« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2009, 12:05:12 PM »

John,

One thing I have noticed about dry seating wheel studs is that they don't last very long. The manufacturers sell alot more of them. They are more easily damaged and the damage spreads from stud to stud faster forcing you to buy all new ones alot sooner than if you use a lube.

The only issue I can think of is that if the wheel end gets hot from braking it could cook the lube and make it harder to get the hardware off. I have never seen that myself.

When Clifford says he has checked the torque on his 1 inch IR gun with his 800lb torque wrench and its correct, I hope everyone realizes how much physical effort it takes to put 480lbs on the end of a hand torque wrench. It ain't no small feat! I have the little brother to Clifford's 800 pounder. Its a 5 foot 600 pounder and it takes a real strong man to pull 480 pounds at 5 feet, it's no job the boys can do, and if I did 10 of those in one day, that would be alot more than I want to do.

That's why I said you folks with the half inch thunder guns and broken trick tools are fooling yourselves. Its also why Clifford's wheels stay on... Right tool for the right job.

I also believe Clifford's method is the norm. That's pretty much how the industry does tire hardware. Most tire shops will allow you to have some input, but the bottom line is you are going to need a decent 1 inch tire gun if you are going to do this kind of work at home, do it right and keep it safe.

This is somewhat academic. Not everyone has the good tools or ever will have. The 2 hour inspection rule is for hazardous materials. I run alot of hazmat so I have the habit and it follows me all the time, hazmat or not. Still, if everyone will inspect their equipment regularly, and family's are just as important as hazardous materials, no one should ever loose a wheel off their bus.

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« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2009, 01:02:59 PM »

Hello:     This thread is a bit more civilized than the last one on this situation.  When I mentioned that I used neversieze  sparingly I was flamed and accused of not caring about other drivers on the road and not following manufacturers reccommendations etc etc etc.. Must be my liberal nature shows ..
   
      Anyway the government did a study and you can find it if you google truck tire safety etc..   The conclusion of the study I believe if memory serves is that 65% or so of wheel failures are caused by loose nuts..   and 20% by overtight nuts.
    SO the bottom line is that if your nuts are loose  2/3s of the time you might lose your wheels; But  if your nuts are too tight you will only lose your wheels 20% of the time. 
    So it behooves us all to tighten our nuts correctly to provide the proper tension and torque so that we don't lose our wheels..
   The study did not take into account weather the failed nuts were left or right handed  so we should not intuit who may have loose or tight nuts by what they think about the current state of the union..  or if the wheels are coming off as we speak..
    Regards and happy bussin    mike
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Mike Lutestanski   Dunnellon Florida
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