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Author Topic: Which 24 volt inverter has good transfer switch?  (Read 2190 times)
belfert
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« on: September 13, 2009, 11:27:42 AM »

My Prosine inverter seems to have bit the dust.  The transfer relay has been acting up for a while now.  The contacts are geting welded together.  Hitting the inverter with a mallet has worked previously.

A friend of mine took the inverter apart and cleaned up the contacts on the relay, but now the inverter displays the error code for welded relay contact no matter what.  A new relay is very hard to find.  Xantrex wants $400 flat rate to fix this and I prefer not to put $400 into this one.

Can anyone recommend an inverter with the following:

24 volt DC
Sine wave
good transfer relay (Anyone use a contactor instead?
50 or 60 amp double pole transfer switch

I am thinking a Magnum Energy model, but not 100% sure.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2009, 03:20:15 PM »

Brian,

If it were me, I would replace the relay.  These types of relays are generally commodity items; it's not necessary to get the same manufacturer and part number.  If you give me the part number or other identification for the relay, I might be able to cross-reference it for you.

-Sean
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2009, 04:03:18 PM »

Well, the relay part number is Deltrol P/N 275p202c12d.  Out of production and we think Deltrol P/N 20930-81 is the replacement.

We are having a heck of a time finding a 20930-81 relay in stock.  We aren't sure we could get a relay before we leave on the 29th.  I would certainly like to fix this one, but I probably need to decide by the weekend if I order a new inverter.  I hate doing things like installing a new inverter last minute.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 07:48:55 AM »

I'm thinking I might be wasting my time trying to fix my Prosine 3.0.  Xantrex no longer repairs these and Xantrex authorized service centers won't touch them.  I talked to Detrol and they said their 20930-81 relay should be the replacement relay, but nobody stocks them and a distributor would need to order one from Deltrol.  I talked to Relay Specialties and they said 3 to 4 weeks to get the relay.

I am going to make one last effort to get it working before I give up.  I don't think ordering a relay is an option right now unless there is a cross reference for this one.

I am unable to come up with any 24 volt inverter that has a 50 amp dual pole transfer relay.  I thought the MS4024 did so, but it only transfers 30 amp double pole.  I'll just have to keep my seperate subpanel for inverter loads.  I just thought it might be nice to run anything in the bus off the inverter if I wanted to.

One of the Xantrex authorized service centers recommended the MS4024 over the Outback inverters.  He says he has seen the Outbacks fail in bus conversions.  He has a real good price on the MS4024, but he also does the Outback too.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 08:34:27 AM »

Brian,

I worked on that part number for quite a while last night.  It's a 35-amp, DPDT relay with PC-board solder pins.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to cross.  Most relays in that form factor have maximum ratings of 25 or 30 amps, and few have PC-board pins.  For example, Tyco, the largest manufacturer of relays, claims they make no compatible part.

I did not get as far as looking for a 35-amp model with the more standard male terminals.  I think you could get a relay socket with PC-board pins that would fit your board, and that would then open up a much larger selection of replacement relays.  The size and terminal positions for that part are industry standard; the only reason Pro-Sine did not use a socket is cost.

If you changed over to a socket, the Deltrol 275 (which is what you've got) is probably widely stocked in it's standard-terminal variety; in the interim, you could put a P&B 30-amp unit in there instead to get you going.  Again, if it were me, this is what I would do (assuming the relay is the only problem with the unit).

As far as replacement units, I am not sure what you are trying to do with regards to the 50-amp transfer relay, but the Xantrex SW series uses 60-amp relays.  Unfortunately, they are single-pole, which necessitates an external relay to do ground-neutral bonding.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2009, 08:41:46 AM »

I'm pretty sure the relay is the problem with my unit as whacking it with a hammer fixed it before.  The relay is pitted so the contacts were sanded and the inverter reassembled.  The inverter powers up fine, but any time I turn on the inverter portion from the control panel it errors out with the error code for welded relay contact.  When the inverter has shore power it isn't passing current through the relay.

I am going to disassemble the unit again to be one of the four wires I had to disconnect isn't loose.

I only have two weeks to get this running so I am running out of time to be ordering relays and such.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2009, 09:52:01 AM »

I'm pretty sure the relay is the problem with my unit as whacking it with a hammer fixed it before.  The relay is pitted so the contacts were sanded and the inverter reassembled.  The inverter powers up fine, but any time I turn on the inverter portion from the control panel it errors out with the error code for welded relay contact.  When the inverter has shore power it isn't passing current through the relay.

I am going to disassemble the unit again to be one of the four wires I had to disconnect isn't loose.

I only have two weeks to get this running so I am running out of time to be ordering relays and such.


If you decide to trash this unit, I'd take it off your hands to see if I could get it working. Might make a good spare for me.

craig
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2009, 10:36:20 AM »

If it were me (that is cheap and poor), I would install an external relay in a utility box and eliminate the built in pass through.  A two pole contactor with a 120 volt coil connected to the incoming ac supply would do it quite inexpensively.  You would then only have to figure out how to fool the inverter control circuit so it would stay on.
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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2009, 11:07:10 AM »

Brian,

I got my MS-4024 from these folks.  The lowest price I could find.  They have a special offer right now.  I don't know what it is but when I purchased mine the special offer was a free remote unit and free shipping (ground UPS) with the price shown.  Give em a call to see what they are offering:

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/inverter-folder/magnum_ms_4024.html

As you can see in the spec sheet below, the MS-4024 is a 4KW inverter which is an optimal 33.33 amps at 120 vac.  Two separate outputs available.  Why do you want a 50 amp relay in a unit not capable of that current?  

Chuck

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/pdf.folder/inverter%20pdf%20folder/Magnum%20MS%20Datasheeet.pdf
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 11:11:33 AM by Chuck Newman » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2009, 11:16:53 AM »

I'm not giving up on my current inverter just yet.  I am going to disassemble it and check things out again today.  My friend is ordering a generic relay today.  If I buy a new one I'll still try to get this one working after my trip so I can at least sell it for something or keep it for backup.

Chuck, my original thought on the 50 amp double pole relay was so all power could pass through the inverter and I could turn on anything in the coach while on inverter.  I decided that might not be the best idea and will stick with my 30 amp subpanel.
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Chuck Newman
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 11:38:37 AM »

Chuck, my original thought on the 50 amp double pole relay was so all power could pass through the inverter and I could turn on anything in the coach while on inverter.  I decided that might not be the best idea and will stick with my 30 amp subpanel.

I had the same desire in the beginning, but it just did not pan out on paper.  You can run the entire coach on the inverter, but it is akin to having a 4 kw generator available when not on shore power.

I have a standard 8 position panel board downstream of the transfer switch that feeds the 4024 inverter/charger, 2 A/C units, washer/dryer, and buddy plug.  The 4024 inverter output feeds a Blue Sea panel in the living area for lights, outlets, electronics, etc.

If we want to run either/both the A/C's, or W/D, or another coach or electric tools; we must be plugged into shore or run the gen.

Chuck
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 11:44:09 AM »

Brian(anyone),

You said that Xantrex would fix the thing for $400.  I need the info on that..Please.  I have only been able to locate "fact auth dealers" and they say "max $1000" IF it can be repaired and there was a hefty charge to bench test the bugger.  

They offered me another "deal" and that was a flat rate of $1.200 or 1,400 and they would ship a replacement same day.  THEN after getting mine they would determin the real repair charge and bill me for anything additional.  I was flabbergasted and still cannot believe the guy was serious.  These guys bought out everybody except Magnum and we are sure paying for that lack of competition in this market place.  I want the Gummint option and I want it now.  Competition is the only thing that keeps these guys(Bidnessmen) honest and reasonable.  Now where is that Chinese option under a chink name cause the Xantrex stuff is now being made there(I'm told) WITHOUT the savings being passed on to the consumer, no crap.

I wish I could locate schematics for the Freedom 1230 Marine I now own and want to repair.  It arrived with two heavy gauge wires dangling on the main board but was represented to have been working when removed. The main TX is the only thing I see that would be a difficult fix.  At these prices I would unwind and rewind that thing in a weekend.  I have done it before but I had data and could see the burnt winding.  These things should be very maintainable.  Schematics!  Anybody?

Thanks Brian,

John
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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 12:09:28 PM »

Brian(anyone),

You said that Xantrex would fix the thing for $400.  I need the info on that..Please.  I have only been able to locate "fact auth dealers" and they say "max $1000" IF it can be repaired and there was a hefty charge to bench test the bugger.  

Xantrex HAD a flat rate repair of $400 for the relay on a Prosine.  That was the offer last fall.  When I called today they won't repair Prosine inverters period.  Xantrex offered me 30% off a refurbished inverter instead.  They gave me a real good quote on a refurbished RS3000, but it is 12 volt.

I called several Xantrex certified repair centers.  None would touch a Prosine.  I talked for about 20 minutes with one guy.  He said Xantrex actually had been sending customers repaired or refurbished Prosine inverters instead of repairing them at the service center.  When they had a container load of broken Prosine inverters they would ship them to China for repair.

I talked to this guy for quite a while and he recommended the MS4024 as he said the Outbacks break in bus conversions.  He quoted me a good price on a MS4024.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 03:00:04 PM »


I talked to this guy for quite a while and he recommended the MS4024 as he said the Outbacks break in bus conversions.  He quoted me a good price on a MS4024.

Hmmm...  The Xantrex guy is telling you not to with Outback?  Wonder why that is?  Could it be that Outback was started by all the top engineers from Xantrex who left and started up their own company when they saw what was going on at Xantrex?

I think Brian Diehl has an Outback in his bus. I don't recall it breaking, yet. You might want to talk to him about it. He did quite a bit or research on it before deciding on the one he got. Although, I think Magnum was not a company yet when he bought his Outback.

Then again, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, and the bookmakers in Vegas say it won't be the last time.

craig
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2009, 03:25:08 PM »

The guy sells and repairs Xantrex, Magnum, and Outback.  He is recommending the Magnum for bus conversions.  Xantrex doesn't even make a 24 volt RV inverter anymore that is sine wave and not Prosine.  The SW4024 appears to be discontinued.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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