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Author Topic: Adjusting the Leveler Valves  (Read 8093 times)
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« on: September 16, 2009, 12:26:52 PM »

Hi Guy's,

I'm sure the answer to this question will be for me to drive to US Coach and have Bill do it over the pit... But..

It seems that there is no real safe way to adjust the leveling valves without either crawling under the bus and

risking crushing myself.. or doing this over a pit.. Which I don't have. "yet"

After installing the new bags, my drivers side is 3" higher then the Pass side. I can attest that the old bags were

3 different sizes and they may have compensated that with the levelers. Now that all the bag's are of the same,

I need to do this on a level flat street like my shop driveway but, I just don't think it will be safe to be under there..

Anybody have any ideas? or i'll just drive to Luke's.

Thanks
Nick-
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2009, 12:38:15 PM »

Nick,

You probably already thought of this & discarded it... LOL  BUT,

If you have enough HEAVY lumber around, like railroad ties, you can drive the bus up on them and adjust the levelers. The ties need to be in good shape (no rot or cracking) & ONE layer needs to be high enough for you to be safe under the bus if you let all the air out of the bags.

I happen to have a 12" curb I put one side of mine up on to get under, one advantage to being thin!

TOM
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2009, 12:54:47 PM »

Not sure where your level valves are Nick but basically what Tom said.  I can get under mine when its down on the stops but just barely.  Even having it up on a 3" block makes a huge difference.  My front level valve is more or less inaccessible but my rear valves are accessible from the sides of the bus. 
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2009, 12:55:40 PM »

Nick,

I did mine while up on run up blocks/ramps.

I did put some 4X4 blocks between the axle/body stops just to make me feel better.

Have you already run it down the block to see if it corrects or is this what it aired up to on first fill up?

Cliff
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2009, 02:17:43 PM »

Nick, determine what the distance should be between the shock absorber mount stud centers, then block to that level, that should give you enough room to adjust your levelers, then adjust the levelers to the neutral position on the leveler.>>>Dan
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2009, 02:22:39 PM »

If you need more room to work, put blocks under the wheels and do the process.>>>Dan
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2009, 05:48:55 PM »

Nick,

In the rear the valves don't adjust the bus to be level, they adjust it so that the body is parallel to the axles, so it doesn't have to be on level ground while you adjust it.

The front adjusts so that it is parallel with the rear in a fore and aft plane.

This system was designed to compensate for different loads of passengers, it doesn't keep the bus level like with a bubble level.
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2009, 06:38:34 PM »

Hi Gus,

Oh... I didn't know this..

Ok, what's the best way to level out from side to side?  Or, should I say what is the right way to level my bus?

Thanks
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2009, 07:01:11 PM »

Nick,

If you'll look in your manual, there should be a measurement given for the correct distance between the axles and the bump stops. On my 4905 it's 3.5" in the front and 3.25" in the rear.  It should also give you the original height of the rubber bumpers as the do tend to get crushed as the years go by.

You can run it up on the blocks and set the height using the correct dimensions for your bus and you should be good to go.
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2009, 08:05:36 PM »

Nick, for the some of us (okay, just me) what is the procedure from the MCI manual?
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2009, 08:22:18 PM »

Nick,

All I did was take a measurement from the driver side, and adjusted my passenger side the same. It came from the PO adjusted to where the driver side was a little lower then the passenger side. Only thing I can think of is to compensate for the crown of the road. We haven't had any clearance issues.

Our leveler arm was attached to a bracket with holes in it. All I did to make the heights match, was to simply count the number of holes on one side, and do the same on the other.

I know, kinda simple Grin. I redneck it sometimes KISS Kiss Grin Grin Grin

God bless,

John
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2009, 08:31:22 PM »

Something way fishy, 3" difference is a very big difference...

Ride height is very important for the rest of the suspension geometry to function as intended.

Do you have symmetry between the sides in the leveling valves and their mounting points and the length of the arms?

If Luke's pit is close, I'd go there because I'm lazy.

At home, wheels off, axle on the railroad ties, safely fiddle with the leveling to my hearts content in through the wheel wells where I can't be squeezed.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2009, 09:17:59 PM »

Nick,

Gus is right on regarding the leveling valves (MCI calls them Height Control Valves).  If you want a "level" coach while stopped, you need a separate leveling system.

As John said the easiest thing to do is run the drives up on a block, engine off, apply shop air, and set the bolt and nut on both to the last hole in the vertical brace connected to the HCV's horizontal control arm.  When you remove the locking bolt in the brace push up on the HCV arm, and the bus will rise.  And the opposite is ture.

Do the same thing with the front HCV.  This will give the bus the highest chassis above ground driving solution for intersection dips and driveways.  No, it does not affect the ride or stability.

If the wheels are on level ground and the bus still sags in any direction, you probably have a defective HCV or the wrong size bag somewhere.  Assuming no leaky bags.

For reference, my recent bag replacement on the drives were the Goodyear 1R12 566-24-3-048.  The Firestone equivalent is W01-358-9392.

Hope this helps.  Chuck
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2009, 09:24:45 PM »

Hi Chuck,

All the new Drive Bags were identical. as were the tag bags too.

I just gotta get under there now and set the HCV.

Thanks guy's!
Nick-
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2009, 09:42:49 PM »

Nick, you literally burn the Midnight Oil, don't ya!
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2009, 11:44:19 PM »

If you don't have an exact measurement for ride height, you can do some measuring yourself when underneath-but as said before-make sure you have enough room underneath when the bags are completely deflated.  What you do is with full air tanks, disconnect the connecting rods on the axle that goes to the leveling valve.  First deflate it all the way down (you pull down on the rod to make the air escape the bags), measure the body to axle, then push up on the connecting rod and fill the bags up until they stop, and measure them again.  Set them at 5/8-3/4 the way up from the lowest point, and you should be there.  I run with my bags just one inch from the top-mainly to get the bus up as high as possible, and to have a better ride.  Unlike what most think, the higher the bags sit up off the axle with more air in them, the better the ride since the bags will have more air in them to cushion the ride.  Of course if you have an exact measurement from the factory, then use that. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2009, 07:00:40 AM »

I disagree with using the height control valves to raise the ride height to "where you want it, higher if you want"...I think that each manufacturer's suspension is designed for a specific ride height, and that is what it should be run at.

In addition, some consideration should be given to driveline (driveshaft/u-joints) angles...driveline angles seem to be more critical these days.

My suggestion would be to find the manufacturer's specs and set it accordingly...then if you have an issue, deal with the issue

I also believe that more air in the bag (to raise the bus) is more pressure in the bag and therefore a stiffer ride...but that is my opinion and like they say, "that's my story and I'm sticking to it."

I cannot argue those that believe that they are getting a better ride with the bags air up more, it just doesn't make any sense to me.
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2009, 08:23:51 AM »

Dave-running more air in the air bags (higher ride height) makes the frequency of the up and down motions slower.  With less, or lower air bags, the piston of the air bag is closer to bottom so when you go over a bump, the pump up in pressure is more severe, hence it reacts faster making for a "rougher" ride.  I work for Freightliner as a new truck engineer and salesman-the air suspension components on Freightliner is made by Hendrickson.  I have had multiple conversations with their engineers confirming my statements about higher riding suspension getting a better ride.  If you have air suspension, you could experiment with the heights also.  An inch or two up or down isn't going to be that critical to drive line angle.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2009, 04:55:00 PM »

No problem Tom, and I respect your input. I too am in HD trucking, and while Hendrickson or other suspension OEs may have a tolerance of the inch or two you speak of, I am pretty sure that Meritor or other driveline mfgs would differ...but isn't it always that way with those guys?!!

And I'm thinking back to the days when drivers (truck drivers) would adjust their ride height to suit them, without regard to the suspension or the driveline...I'm just thinking that the majority of end users here should be/would be better off setting their ride height at the bus mfgs suggestions/specs.
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2009, 06:00:55 PM »

Nick,

In case you think I'm really smart, I didn't know it either until two weeks ago when the guy who repaired my disconnected leveling valve link told me!!

I always thought the system attempted to bubble level!!

After he repaired it he told me to let it air up for awhile and see if it worked properly. I parked with one rear wheel in a small depression and expected it to level itself. That was when he explained it to me.
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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2009, 06:27:09 PM »

Nick, Chuck, Dave, Tom, et al -

I've posted this before (maybe it was on BNO), but when I was with our local transit agency, one of our drivers complained for months about a front end shimmy at 35 -40 mph on a New Look Flxible 40' transit bus he was normally assigned to drive on his route.

Operations thought he was nuts, but he'd wouldn't have the same complaint when assigned a different bus.  Other drivers also mentioned the shimmy.

Shop spent thousands of $$ and man hours changing brakes, drums, tires, dog bone bushings, steering prop shaft, etc., all to no avail.

Finally, one nite the tire company's tech guy was on the lot, and they ran this coach over the pit for his input.  (Agency leased the tires, very common.)

First thing he did was check the ride height on the front end - it was set 2" higher than specs!  Shop readjusted the front leveling valve to provide the correct clearance at rest between the bump stops and the axle (and checked the rears, too), then sent it out in the morning to see what would happen.

Bet you can guess the outcome. . .  (Three guesses, and the first two don't count!!)

Yup, no more complaining about the front end shimmy.

My preference?  Set it to OEM specs, with fresh bump stops if necessary.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2009, 11:54:18 PM »

On some older suspension designs, there were only one control arm making the axle rotate with the up and down movement-if the bus is set to high with this type of suspension, then I could see how it would shimmy since it would also effectively change the caster of the axle.  Most suspensions now (including my AMGeneral transit, GM's, etc) have full articulated control arms-meaning that the axle maintains the same relative position-especially the caster setting when it is going up and down.  I know on trucks on the rear suspension, you can actually see the axle housing rotating around the fulcrum of the suspension arms as they go up and down on a bump.  More sophisticated suspension systems-like the Kenworth 8 air bag, or Neway 4 bag have full articulation also keeping the axle in relative position in the up and down motion-keeping the drive line alignment in place-no matter whether the axle is in the full up or down position.  Depending on the length of your drive shaft-the shorter the shaft the more sensitive it will be to drive line angle.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2009, 04:56:41 PM »

There is definitely a sweet spot for the drivelines to run. I guess if you don't get alot of vibration your OK.

You can probably find the sweet spot for the entire alignment and running gear package by using the same techniques and hunting around a little with each coach. Most of the manufacturers specs are pretty sloppy. I don't think there is anything wrong with an adjustment that makes things better.

I've done alot of fine tuning like that on my Model 20. If anyone wants to know how nice an Eagle can drive out they should take mine for a spin. It won't move around 2 inches in a 60 MPH cross wind at 75MPH. Chassis tuning is worth the effort.

My new dirt bike was real loose under power. It was within all the specs but it was a hand full to hang onto. Turned out the front suspension was too soft under power.

I think you have to drive each vehicle and give it what it needs. A mechanic will always give you the book + or - setting, but that is for the most part only a best guess that will get you out of the shop and down the road. The hard part is getting the experience to know what to fix and how to fix it. To do that, unless your Chad Knause you need to be both a shoe and a wrench.
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« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2009, 09:22:33 PM »

Tom -

The '77 Flx New Look had a six air bag suspension - four on the rear axle, and two on the front.  Two leveling valves on the rear, one on the front.  Cheaper design than GM's New Looks, which were four & four, front/rear.  Three front dog bones, two lower, one upper.  Rear similar to GM, two lower, two upper.  Just FYI.

For me, the absolute sweetest riding air suspended coach I drove in revenue service were the 1978 GM P8M4905s in the charter company fleet.  Their 318" wheelbase, combined with Shepperd steering plus front & rear anti-roll bars, were heaven on the highway - even on LA's infamous freeway hops.  The MCIs felt "heavy handed," comparatively.  Interestingly, the Prevost X3-45 is the only 45-foot coach in today's market that has a wheelbase longer than the 4905. . . 

Interesting that you mention Neway suspension.  We had a bunch of Gillig Phantoms with the Neway trailing arm, two-air bellow suspension on the rear.  Those 24 buses caused more back injuries to the operators than any other coach in the fleet.  The rear axle acted like the fulcrum on an teeter-totter, and the drivers were on the lightweight end.  Eight hours a day of being flung up and down took it's toll.

Later model Gilligs came with four bellows on the rear, and the problem went away.

Eagles, with their Torsilastic suspension, are, of course, completely different than the air suspended coaches.  But, as any Eagle owner will tell you, without the suspension indexed correctly, and with poor shocks, the front end can buck you right out of the seat at speed.  Not so much on the 45-footers, tho.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink

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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2009, 07:34:45 AM »

I would like this pressure thing & ride height explained please. If it takes X psi to support X pounds @ a given height why does it take more psi to raise. The weight to
psi ratio is the same. However there needs to be an increase in volume. Adding air would raise the Bus and it seems the psi would level off to where it was.
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2009, 08:59:56 AM »

RJ- I know your right about the Neway air suspension.  They designed it for maximum control on trucks, not comfort of passengers.  That suspension system is so stable, the military uses it on their tank transport trucks off road.  At Freightliner Custom Chassis Corp (FCCC), they were using the Neway suspension on their motorhome chassis.  It was so reactive, that with motorhomes, when hitting a rocking bump, it reacted so fast that dishes were being ejected out of cupboards and people being thrown around.  Neway redesigned the trailing arm.  The old arm is a one piece big J that is very stiff (great for stability-but not comfort).  The new arm is actually a 2 piece design looking like two separate arms side by side allowing some flex in the arm before being transmitted to the frame.  Much more comfortable of a ride.
On my bus, there is a bit of rocking side to side, but then when going into a curve, the big sway bars take hold and the bus doesn't lean at all.  Personally like a bit of a sloppy ride, makes for less jolting and being less tired at the end of a long day of driving.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2009, 08:46:05 AM »

Here is my take on the PSI vs ride height thing.  It's just what I think, based on how I design race car suspensions.  Taking as an example a front axle with four bags.  It has total suspension movement of 6", and is set in the middle, 3" of droop and 3" of bump.  To make the math easy, it has a total load of 10,000 lbs, for 2,500 per bag.  The spring rate necessary to allow 3" of static bump with a 2,500 lb load is 2,500/3 or 833 lbs/inch.

If you want the suspension to set 1" higher, you have the same load - 2,500 lbs - and you need a stiffer spring so that it doesn't compress as much under that load.  the new spring rate is 2,500/2, for a rate of 1,250 lbs per inch.  The spring rate of the bag is (I think) directly proportional to the air pressure inside it, so to raise the height of the bus, you need to pump more air in.  If you had the suspension set in the middle with 30 lbs of air, you'd need to go up to 45 psi to raise the bus an inch.  If you added 2,000 lbs of passengers to the load, you'd need to add air similarly to increase the spring rate of the bag to get it to come back up to it's setting with the added load.  That's what the leveling valves are doing.  Another cool thing is that when the suspension is compressed as the bus goes over a bump, the air pressure goes up and the spring gets stiffer, a true variable rate spring.  

In my world, a stiffer spring equals harsher, quicker acting suspension and ride.  We even calculate suspension stiffness in cycles per second, or Hertz, as a way of relating a given stiffness to the load that it's carrying.  Intuitively I can't come to grips with stiffer suspension riding softer, but I haven't tried changing my bus either, so I'm willing to take it as a possible!  I do know that increasing the stiffness could easily result in a more controlled ride, which could be felt as a smoother, less aggressive, more comfortable ride.  I also think that if the suspension has too big a bag size relative to the load it's carrying, you'd have to run it at a relatively low air pressure, and the variable rate nature of the spring might result in too quick an increase, so the bus might feel harsh and over-reactive it you were running it too light at stock ride height.  This would be worse with double convolute bags that were plated and not using the air beams.

As always, having tried to figure it out on my own, I Googled.  This is an interesting article that adds to what I wrote above.  http://www.fsip.com/pdfs/newsrelease/MI-May-07-Firestone.pdf


Brian
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2009, 09:30:14 AM »

Hey Nick
 Glad to hear you got your bags in and are almost done. Be Safe.

Bill
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2009, 09:42:12 AM »

Hey Nick
 Glad to hear you got your bags in and are almost done. Be Safe.

Bill

Thanks Bill,
I'm being held up by a nasty head cold and it wants Ransome!! I'll get back to leveling the bus later this week.

Nick-
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