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Author Topic: Well we are ALMOST broken down!  (Read 4225 times)
John316
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MCI 1995 DL3, DD S60, Allison B500.




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« on: September 25, 2009, 08:02:17 PM »

But not quite  Grin.

Does anybody have any ideas? Here is what is going on.

We go to start the bus two weeks ago. It cranks, and cranks, but doesn't start. I go back to the engine compartment to see what is going on. No problem back there, so I decided to run the priming pump, via the switch in the back, on the rear panel. I ran the pump manually, for a bit, and then went to start it again, and it started. I chalked it up the the elevation, and the computer not being calibrated (we were in denver).

Then somewhere else, I forget where, it didn't start right up, and took some cranking. I was beginning to get suspicious that something else was going on.

Tonight we went to start it. I cranked it for 10 seconds (usually it takes two cranks), and then quit (to let the starter cool off). I went back, and ran the fuel pump again. I then cranked it for another 10 seconds. I then ran the pump again, and tried starting it, and it started on the second crank.

Now, here is what I am thinking. I don't really think that it is a fuel issue. I think that if it wasn't getting fuel, it would start then die. I would have also thought that I would have gotten white smoke, if it was trying and no smoke. It acted like the switch in the back was off (it wasn't). It just cranked, and nothing. No exhaust, no nothing.

Do you all have ANY ideas?

BK, are you still around?!?

God bless,

John
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MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 08:24:21 PM »

Others with much more expertise than I have will soon respond I am sure.  But I wouldn't dismiss a fuel supply problem though.  If you are cranking, without it firing and not getting white smoke, then I doubt it is getting fuel to the cylinders.  If fuel goes in and doesn't get burned, it will usually produce white smoke from what I have seen.

In my non-expert opinion, it sounds like it is losing prime.  If others agree, I'm sure they will have suggestions of where to look for the cause.

(I commend you on keeping the cranking sessions short to save your starter.)
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belfert
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 08:26:09 PM »

Any DDEC codes?  I would check for a cracked fuel line that is sucking air.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 09:16:10 PM »

I don't know anything about DDEC but I don't think that matters in this case.  I think you have a fuel problem, either a leak that is letting fuel drain back to the tank or a bad check valve.  It sounds like the problem appeared all of a sudden so my money would be on the check valve.
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2009, 09:32:40 PM »

Yup, something wrong in the fuel line between tank and injectors.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2009, 09:45:54 PM »

Hmmm, sounds tome that it's a fuel problem!

And just my opinion and only my opinion, but maybe a common one!
After all your MCI D model is not the only one I have seen with the factory primer switch. And also not the first one I have seen do exactly the same as your either.
I once asked a true MCI man who knows MCI's inside & out from 5's up to D models why it was one of his buses (DL3) did the same thing while I was driving it for him.
His response was "oh I don't know but it's common, that's why MCI put a primer switch in from the factory!"

I never thought anymore about it.

But just so ya know it ain't just MCI! Once in a blue moon my '95 Setra S217 60 Series w/700,000 miles on it will crank & crank and not fire on the second turn. I go back and hit it with a little shot of either and it starts right up! And I have no problem for a long time after that!
FWIW Grin  BK  Grin

I coulda been mean and said it was just acting up because you didn't bring it to our rally LOL!
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
John316
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 06:18:32 AM »

Thanks a lot guys. I am hoping that it is nothing more then what Bryce said. We will see though. Right now we are 45 min south of Augusta, Georgia.

BK, very, funny. Looks like you are having fun at your rally.

God bless,

John
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MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
johns4104s
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 06:20:29 AM »

If the DDEC has a skinner value it could be sticking and not letting the plunger reset. If you do have a skinner, disconnect the air line going to the shut of plunger, reset the plunger and see if it starts right up.

John
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belfert
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 06:57:45 AM »

I am reasonably certain a Series 60 doesn't have a skinner valve.  I certainly haven't seen one on my Series 60.  In faact, I am not aware of anything air operated on a Series 60.  (This doesn't mean there isn't anything.)
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Eagle Andy
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 07:17:28 AM »

ok I have a ?  what is a skinner valve and what does it do. Iam just learnning so be gentle lol thanks Andy
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1968 Model 05 Eagle # 7481 Miles City MT
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 07:28:31 AM »

It's an elec. operated solenoid air valve that usually shuts down the engine or sets the high idle, you should have two in the back over the engine in the electrical panel overhead. At least that's where mine are. Trace the air lines from them down to the small cylinders on the block by the governor. Skinner is just a name and you can buy them at Parker or eBay.

Paul
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 07:49:24 AM »

Guys he doesn't have skinner valves it is a electronic engine.
John the 60s have a fuel pump to pickup the fuel same as the 2 strokes and they do go bad if you had air leaks the priming pump won't pick it up either the way yours is plumbed.
If you have the Racor water separator I would change that filter.
If you get the code 48 that will be low fuel pressure then it is time for the smiling faces at WW Williams



good luck
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 07:59:41 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Eagle Andy
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 08:01:47 AM »

ok I have one I think , It's got a air line coming off the panel leading down to what looks like a cyl right by the throttle I do know that if you start the engine without air pressure you have to wait to shut down the engine . Is that also what you guys call the air kill ?
Thanks Paul
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luvrbus
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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2009, 08:20:24 AM »

Andy, you just have one because there is no fast idle on your engine which to me is a waste anyway without coach air.   


good luck
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John316
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2009, 08:25:03 AM »

Thanks, guys.

Belfert, you are right. I don't have any skinner valves (Clifford is right too).

Clifford, I am not aware of any air leaks. It seems to me that if the pump was failing, that we would have other issues too. This morning when I went to start, it took two cranks, and it was going. It seems to be an intermittent problem. Would putting the computer on tell us if the system was getting air into it? We do not have a water separator. We have had NO loss of power, and it runs PERFECT otherwise.

The fuel pump was my first guess, but other things, I didn't think, pointed to it.

What do ya think?

God bless,

John
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MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
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