Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
December 22, 2014, 10:18:35 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If your computer is lost, damaged, or stolen, your Online mags will be safe.
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Getting the Heat out...  (Read 4261 times)
Iver
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 188


1979 MCI-9




Ignore
« on: October 06, 2009, 01:57:20 AM »

It's been a while since I installed a newly rebuilt 8v92 in our MC9.(475hp).  After several short test runs to get everything working properly, I thought it was time to test the engine on a hill climb. We live on the coast of B.C. so it is no problem finding a mountain to climb. During all the first test drives the engine maintained a steady temp. of 195 degrees, in local driving or on the freeway.  (T-stats 195's)

The hill we climbed starts out slow but increases to 8% grade. I had no problem at first, certainly no lack of power and I held the rpm to17to 1800. After about 20 min. of climbing the engine temp started to rise. My gauge on the dash is not real accurate but I could watch it slowly moving upward.
I decided not to push it so I pulled over in one of the "chain-up" lanes and went around to the engine to check the rear gauge. It read 205.  After about 5 min. or so idling it went back to 195 and stayed there.  I considered my options and decided to retreat and head back down the hill.  Again the temp never went above 195.

The cooling system is stock with the addition of the large rads.

My questions are these....
1.  Would lower temp thermostats keep the engine temp down when hill climbing?

2. Is it possible to keep this 8-92 cool without major modifications?

3. Does anyone have a MC9 with a 8-92 with no cooling problems?

I have a friend with an Eagle with a 8-92 (large side radiator) whose temp never goes over 190* on any hill in any weather.

4. Has anyone converted a MC9 to a "side radiator"?

       Thanks,  Iver

Logged

Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada
"Life may not be the party we hoped for,
But while we are here we might as well dance".
NewbeeMC9
NewbeeMC9
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1167


1981 MC9 8V71, HT 740




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 03:54:16 AM »


Just out of curiosity, why did you choose 195 t-stats?


Temps won't stay below 190, even with an added side radiator, if you have 195 t-stats.



Seems this would be the easy place to start since you did get larger radiators.

Louvers in the rear door might be the next consideration.





just a thought

Logged

It's all fun and games til someone gets hurt. Wink
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 13133




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 04:18:41 AM »

A while back on this board the operating temps were discussed about thermostats 205 is going to be about the normal range the for a 195 degree thermostat.
The 195 is when they start to open fully open at around 200+ thermostats are to keep the engine from falling below the 195 degree temps has nothing to do with going above the range of the thermostat in other words change to a 180 and maybe your engine will operate around 195.



good luck
Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
RickB
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1079


81 MCI 9 smooth side 8V71 Allison 754




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 06:14:14 AM »

Iver,

I would get her up to 200 or so again and then I would IR gun the inlet and outlet of both stats and just for good measure I would check all the individual cylinders at the exhaust manifold to make sure that you don't have more going on here than you might think.

IR the radiators for cold spots (blockages) and the water pump inlet and outlet as well.

Let us know what you find out.

Rick
Logged

I will drive my Detroit hard... I will drive my Detroit hard.
Iver
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 188


1979 MCI-9




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2009, 10:30:38 AM »

Actually I don't think I would have chosen the 195's but my engine rebuilder put  them in according to the "book" which shows 195.
I don't have a temp gun yet but it is on my shopping list. I guess what I will do first is to change the t-stats and do another test.
I like the idea of louvres in the engine doors as well.

Another question....I want to change the temp gauge on the dash as it is not real accurate. Does the sending unit need to changed as well?
        Thanks, Iver
Logged

Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada
"Life may not be the party we hoped for,
But while we are here we might as well dance".
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 13133




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 10:57:54 AM »

Iver, my  book shows 180 to 190  for the manual 8v92 engine. You will love the 8v92 fwiw if you reduce it 450 hp there will less heat,less smoke and better fuel milage and watch your foot keep it around 1800 rpm at all times on hard pulls and it will  serve you well for a long time.Louvers are not going to help with the internal cooling on a 8v92 but they do keep your engine compartment cooler 


good luck
Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
edvanland
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 360




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 03:16:35 PM »

I have a 8V92 in my MCI 7 with automatic.  When I bought it had real problems with the overheating. Put in new slightly larger radiators with dimples, air scoops, and 175 degree thermastats. On hot days on a long climb I open up the rear doors and that helps by about 10 to 12 degrees. I also found some very bright aluman panels and cut the bottom of the rear doors and put a piece of this on each side.  It allows some of the heat out when running.  By the way I live in Cornvill Arizona so any which way I go I have a long 6 or 7 per cent grade to climb and I normally am towing a trailer.  I keep a eye on the temp gauge and the tach.  When the RPMs go down I down shift and keep it at 1900 to 2000 RPMs. I don't care how fast I am going when I top the hill, just how cool it is. Works for me. Next step is a very large trans cooler.
ED
MCI 7
Logged

Ed Van
MCI 7
Cornville, AZ
loosenut
Confidently Ignorant
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 407




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 03:28:41 PM »

Get your ir device before you do much to the engine.  My temperature gauge on a 6v92ta is inaccurate when compared to an ir gun.  My gauge showed over 200 yet I couldn't find a 200 temp in the engine compartment.  I checked at the thermostats, freeze plugs, radiator in and outlets etc.

Once you have reliable data you might not need to change a thing.

Mike
Logged

Sold 85 Neoplan 33ft 6V92ta, sadly busless
RickB
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1079


81 MCI 9 smooth side 8V71 Allison 754




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 04:04:55 PM »

Iver,

The stats are gonna cost you alot more than the IR gun. They are on sale at Harbor freight for $35 or so.

The IR gun will save you the stat money if that's not the problem.

Rick
Logged

I will drive my Detroit hard... I will drive my Detroit hard.
johns4104s
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 865





Ignore
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 05:05:53 PM »

Iver,

Be aware the IR is only approximate, you need to have a good gauge and yes you should also change out/match with the sending unit. i also have a 8v92 with Allison auto. They changed to big radiators, its turned down to 400 hp, They also installed a tranny cooler. I have to really push it with a 5000ib trailer to get it to 200 deg.

John
Logged
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 05:10:58 PM »

Be a bit careful about putting all your eggs in the IR temperature measuring device basket.  High quality units have adjustments for emissivity.  The issue is that a black body radiates heat differently from a shiny light colored body.  The expensive ones ($200-300) are quite accurate and yield repeatable results.  

We used them many years ago to measure dynamic belt temperature in our belt test lab.  We calibrated them often with a black body instrument (belts are black).

I suspect that the cheaper units are set for a black body, but I don't know that.  Further, they are most likely significantly less reliable as compared to laboratory units.  I think the cheap ones are great for finding differences in temperatures and for looking for hot spots in things like electrical cabinets.

In this case, folks are trying to have you "calibrate" your dash gauge with an instrument of unknown accuracy.

Couple that with the thought that a two stroke engine is very unforgiving about maximum temperature and if you are off by 5 or 10 degrees, you can get yourself in trouble.

It might pay you to hunt around and see if you can find a company with a high accuracy unit that would allow you to compare your unit with.  An alternative would be to see if you can find a lab that has temperature calibration equipment that will check your newly purchased gun.  You could also consider purchasing a brand name unit with calibration information included with the unit.

Jim

OOPS, John and I posted at the same time.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 05:14:07 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
harpold700 3
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 41


72 mc7 8-71 stick




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 05:19:32 PM »

Go with low temp stats,170 180max. I run 92 power in my log trucks for years, anything over 200 degrees is certain death for your engine. My 8-71 is going to get a set of 160's.  I live in Princeton give me a call, 250-295-3568. Got lots you should know. Gord
Logged
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 13133




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2009, 05:24:53 PM »

Jim is right on about the IR guns after 5 of the cheaper ones I broke down and bought a Raytek ST 60 XB but I probably use one more than most the cheap ones have such a close spot distance area some are like 12 inches .  


good luck
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 05:41:31 PM by luvrbus » Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 13133




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2009, 05:33:56 PM »

Iver, lots of advice here but the 8v92 needs to operate at 175 degrees minimum don't run it too cold that is why the 180 degree t stats are the best choice
good luck
Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
Doug1968
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 137





Ignore
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2009, 06:15:52 PM »

Hey you guys,

I've been following this discussion and I was wondering if anyone was going to talk about a mist water system? I've read on some postings about some who have installed the mist systems to assist with lowering motor temperature during the climb through the mountains.

Do these systems help? 

Doug
Logged

1986 MCI 102A3 - 8V92 - 5 speed
Vancouver, Washington
RJ
Former Giant Greenbrier Owner
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2881





Ignore
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2009, 09:12:59 PM »

Iver -

FYI, on factory 8V92 installations, not only did MCI use larger/thicker radiator cores, they also used much larger squirrel cage blowers and a different diameter blower pulley.  Have you done the same?

Also, something that everybody seems to overlook, is that between the time you pull over, set the fast idle (you still have yours, don't you?), get out the IR gun, and open up the engine compartment, the temp will drop anywhere from 5-15 degrees.  Diesels cool when they idle!

I'd suggest one of the 270o sweep water temp gauges for more accuracy, with a matching sender unit.  Install a matching one in the engine compartment, too, so that you can compare front/rear readings, as there will be a slight difference.

I agree with Luvrbus - 180o thermostats will keep the engine a little cooler, plus give you a little more margin.  Your engine rebuilder may have used "da book" in choosing the 195s, but more than likely, those were truck specs, not bus.  They are different (no ram air effect, for example).

After all the little details, it will be time to make a run to the Okanagan!!


Doug -

Most folk will tell you that misters are really a "band-aid", except for very few instances.  If the cooling system is operating properly, they shouldn't be needed.

Driving techniques often contribute to overheating problems - diesels are different than cars, and because of that, expensive lessons sometimes happen!

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
Logged

RJ Long
PD4106-2784 No More
S13406 Now
Fresno CA
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6982





Ignore
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2009, 10:38:54 PM »

I too believe that misters are a band aide-but-I increased my power output to 375hp with turbocharging-did increase the radiator to the largest I could install, and still it overheat.  I installed 15 misters from Home Depot running through my water system with a 12v solenoid valve, and I can at least control the buses temperature by slowing down and using the misters when the temp is above 90 degrees.  On this last trip where the temp was in the 80's, no misters were needed.  I do have to spray CLR on the radiator every so often to keep the calcium build up down since I just use regular tap water through the misters.  But without the misters, I couldn't do any summer driving.  The only other alternative would be an additional radiator-and I don't quite know where I would mount it.  Pure and simple-the Detroit 2 strokes are the hardest engines to cool. Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Busted Knuckle
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6447


6 Setras, 2 MCIs, and 1 Dina. Just buses ;D


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2009, 10:48:18 PM »

Iver contact Don Fairchild!
Just last week while he was here @ my rally he & I were out running some last minute errands for the rally when he got a call from someone he knows with an MC9 that they were scraping out that had, had an 8V92 in it. He said the radiators, squirrel cages, gear box, pulleys etc were all in great shape and available reasonable!
I don't have Don's # handy but he is a member here on the board and runs a company in Bakersfield, CA called "Clean Cam Technology Service" or something like that I just call it "CCTS" fer short and have his # on speed dial in my cell phone but my phone is dead @ the moment and I don't have a charger on me!  Grin

Grin  BK  Grin
Logged

Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
Iver
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 188


1979 MCI-9




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2009, 12:19:28 AM »

Thanks everyone for all the thoughts and ideas. 

I think I will change the t-stats as a first step. My rear temp gauge is connected directly to the engine with a thermocouple. When the engine is fully warmed up it reads 195 degrees and never changes unless I turn the engine off or "hill-climb" as I most recently found out. If the t-stats are 195's then the gauge is probably fairly accurate.
My "book" shows two different thermostats. Probably that's where I got confused. Prior to Unit 37445....start to open 170....full open 185
                                                                                                                           Effective Unit 37445...start to open 180....full open 195

I know my rads are the larger ones. The previous owner changed them but I don't think he changed the blowers or the size of the drive pulley.

Speaking of "band-aids" such as misters, I had an old motor home a few years ago, front engine, gasoline, which had no heating problems except on long hill climbs. The factory built in two 12v fans in front of the radiator and when the temp increased to high the fans would come on, quite loudly, and the temp would drop dramatically very quickly and the fans would shut off. It would repeat that until we were no longer climbing. I thought it was a great system.

If misters do have some affect, then wouldn't fans work also?  Oh geez, I think I recall we beat this topic to death a few times before.  Oh well........

Anyway, I really appreciate all the help.
        Thanks, Iver.
Logged

Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada
"Life may not be the party we hoped for,
But while we are here we might as well dance".
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6982





Ignore
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2009, 04:35:55 AM »

On Misters- Here in Los Angeles, just about every bus company that charters to Las Vegas has misters on their buses.  It is the only way they can continue to operate when the temperature is above 110 in the summer.  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Busted Knuckle
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6447


6 Setras, 2 MCIs, and 1 Dina. Just buses ;D


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2009, 05:42:04 AM »

Quote from: TomC
On Misters- Here in Los Angeles, just about every bus company that charters to Las Vegas has misters on their buses.  It is the only way they can continue to operate when the temperature is above 110 in the summer.  Good Luck, TomC


Of course unless it's a ladies only group right? Grin
Grin  BK  Grin
Logged

Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
RickB
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1079


81 MCI 9 smooth side 8V71 Allison 754




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2009, 09:49:07 AM »

It's becoming clearer every year that we as "bus folks" couldn't agree on anything if our lives depended on it.

To say that an Infrared Gun which is accurate to at least a 10th of a degree can't be used to diagnose cold spots in a radiator, or blockages in cooling systems or that it is not going to be ridiculously more accurate than the gauges which are 40 feet away from the source running through 30 year old wiring is just not even in the realm of a rational argument.

Go tell every mechanic that will ever work on your bus that he should just throw those inaccurate IR guns away and I'm sure he'll just walk to the garbage can and throw it away. NOT!!
I'll bet you there isn't one mechaninc worth his salt that doesn't go to his IR gun first when diagnosing cooling issues.

Like I said, we couldn't all agree that it's Wednesday today given enough time to think about it.

Rick
Logged

I will drive my Detroit hard... I will drive my Detroit hard.
Busted Knuckle
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6447


6 Setras, 2 MCIs, and 1 Dina. Just buses ;D


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2009, 11:09:43 AM »

Quote from: RickB

Like I said, we couldn't all agree that it's Wednesday today given enough time to think about it.

Rick


Is that the day before or after Tuesday. Grin
Grin  BK  Grin
Logged

Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 13133




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2009, 11:28:55 AM »

Rick, Jim was just trying to inform the guys all IR guns are not equal and guys need to read the instructions they are not accurate off painted , shinny or oxidized  surfaces if not setup for it and most 50 dollar IR guns are not for the emissivity of all metals and surfaces the cheaper one are black only

good luck
Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2009, 04:51:31 PM »

Rick, I am not sure why I set you off.  Please read my post again.  I strongly recommend any IR gun for looking for differences in temperature.  For example, any of them are great for checking for hot spots in radiators and checking tire and hub temperatures for abnormal temperatures.  They are great for checking for hot spots in electrical cabinets/connections.  However, here we are looking at relative temperatures. 

Using the IR gun for ***absolute*** temperatures can be risky.  You say that they are accurate to one tenth of one degree.  I really need to see the source of that information before I buy that kind of accuracy.  We used to buy the very best units that money could buy.  We were lucky to get them calibrated within a couple of degrees and then we got drift.

I have a pretty good unit and it does not read to 0.1 degrees. 

I really don't want to get into a argument on this, but I spent a lot of time with top of the line products and I can assure you that I would not try to use them to calibrate a gauge. 

I am also concerned that reading the temperature of the exterior of a cast iron head or block does not equate to the actual water temperature.  I have done some playing with this concept using thermistors and could never get a good correlation. 

I think that calibrating the existing gauge with the sensor in a pan of boiling water would give a pretty good idea of the accuracy of the gauge.  The boiling point of water is reasonably accurate when corrected for altitude.

Jim

Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 13133




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2009, 05:05:57 PM »

Jim, I paid 300 bucks for my Raytec and in the instructions manual it says with in 1%  why would it say percent and not degrees ?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 06:09:39 PM by luvrbus » Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2009, 05:23:10 PM »

After my last post, I thought I had better get up to date on IR equipment.  My experience was a few Wink years ago.  I went to several websites.  Most rated their guns at +/- 2% or about 4 degrees possible error.  I did find some that were slightly more accurate (by about a half percent).  

I looked at Raytec's site.  The unit I have is shown at the link posted below (sorry for the length of the URL).  They do say that they set the emissivity for 0.95 (which is close to a black body and significantly different from metal surfaces which are closer to 0.1).  It has been too long since I worked with the impact of emissivity on temperature.  I do know that we always sprayed flat black paint of various parts when we worked in the field.  I will try to do some research on that issue later tonight.

http://www.raytek.com/Raytek/en-r0/ProductsAndAccessories/PortableThermometers/PortableThermometersSeries/MiniTemp-AutomotiveHandheld/Default.htm

So, if we can expect to be accurate within 4 degrees (on a part with an emissivity of 0.95), then I think it can be used for a reasonably good indicator of absolute temperature of the surface of the head/block/radiator/etc.

Being an engineer can be a terrible thing.  As I mentioned before, I am not convinced that the surface temperature of the part accurately reflects the coolant temperature.  This coupled with the emissivity issue kind of blurs how accurate the IR gun measures actual water temperature.  

Clifford, most instruments specify their accuracy (or tolerance) in percent.  

Jim
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 05:54:38 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2009, 05:50:34 PM »

Wow, I am starting to feel like Sean here Grin. (Sean knows me well enough to know that comment is a compliment).

I did some looking at emissivity.  One of the better sources is:  http://support.fluke.com/raytek-sales/Download/Asset/9250315_ENG_A_W.PDF. 

That document talks about emissivity error of up to 10% of reported temperature with some metal objects.  A chart in the document suggests the error is more likely in the 3-6% range. 

The document emphasizes calibration of the specific surface to be measured using a thermal couple.

They also emphasize that measuring the surface temperature of a vessel does not necessarily correlate directly with material in the vessel.   

Given the tolerance of the gun, the emissivity issue, and the possibility of some delta temperature error (surface of block vs. coolant), I continue to be concerned about using the device for calibration.

Jim
Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
RickB
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1079


81 MCI 9 smooth side 8V71 Allison 754




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2009, 06:54:53 AM »

Jim,

My observation was not intended to appear that someone had set me off and I apologize if I came off like that.

It really does seem sometimes like there are absolutely no absolutes to a country with 300 million and a planet with over 6 billion. You will always find disagreement because it is inherently more probable given a larger pool to fish in.

The argument of motor vs engine, biofuels, svo, wvo and fossil fuels, potatoe vs potato. is just wearying after a while.

I believed when I posted my response and I still believe that IR guns are far more accurate than 30 year old wiring and gauges to get actual real time data on engine/motor temps but I realize that as I write that someone out there is trying to find a way to marginalize that statement. One needs look no further than the off topic politics arguments to realize it truly does "take all kinds of people to make a world".
I think this is the reason we lose so many really good and knowledgable people here is they get tired of never being right although their own experience tells them they are indeed right.

My last bus, a 4905 with a 6v92, started overheating one day. $2500 later and a new radiator, water pump, stats, and coolant we found it was a faulty gauge. How did I finally diagnose it correctly?

After spending all that money I stopped at a truck shop in Kansas and bought a guy an $8 pizza and he went for a 5 mile ride in my bus. He stood by the door and I pulled the bus over and voila! the bus gauge was reading 30 degrees hotter than his IR gun.

That was my expensive experience, hands on, with trusting the gauge in my bus, and yet I know sure as I'm sitting here that someone will read this and try and convince me otherwise.

There's the rub. When our experiences don't match up, our results don't match up and then the "truth" that we have experienced with our own eyes and ears comes into contact with someone else's "truth" and we end up cancelling each other out in argument.

The moral of the story is Busnuts would have made great debate team members.

Iver, grab a pizza, go to your nearest diesel shop, find a guy with an IR gun that is in the $200-300 range and give him a ride in your bus. It may be the best $10 you ever spent.

Once again Jim, no harm intended.

On a lighter note I will be contacting you about purchasing a couple of the extinguisher units you sold to Brian Diehl and Craig "beer butt" Shepard, You should hire thise guys to represent your company they are darn good at selling your products LOL!

Hey come to think of it. that is one thing I reckon we could all agree upon:

"Craig Shepard's beer butt chicken is a wonder of culinary delight that should not be missed"

Oh, wait. There must be vegan bus owners out there!! Oh the humanity.

All the best..

Rick




Logged

I will drive my Detroit hard... I will drive my Detroit hard.
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2009, 08:04:21 AM »

Rick, thanks for the positive note.

I mentioned earlier that being an engineer can be a terrible thing.  When I was a young engineer, I would apply my textbook knowledge to a situation and pronounce "you can't do that" to a customer.  More than once, he would politely grab my arm and take me out to show me that "it" was working quite well.  I suspect that some wiser engineers set up the situation to "finish' my real world education Grin

When I see folks ask questions about slides or towing big trailers, my engineering background suggests several engineering issues that could cause big problems.  I try to post my concerns as one person's opinion.  My attempts are always intended to emphasize that the writer should proceed cautiously.  Each time I post, I get a ton of replies that folks are, indeed, doing it and not having any issue.

My goal is always to avoid being argumentative.  Rather it is to play devil's advocate so that the reader gets balanced input.  When I step over the line, folks are not reticent about letting me know Wink Wink

Jim
Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
johns4104s
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 865





Ignore
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2009, 05:43:18 PM »

We used 40 IR guns last year on a 120 million dollar refinery Coke Drum repair , They were the cheap $70.00 guns NOT THE Rayiec $300.00 gun;
The guns were used only as a guide as we had 1000 thermocouples monitoring the shell and weld repair for preheat. The guns did OK although the problems were that aiming the laser at a dark shell would give one reading and aiming the Laser at a shinny weld prep area would give a reading 40 to 70 degree difference. Also we found that when the batteries started to run down we had similar problems.
The IR gun is a great tool I have one, but I am aware of the cheaper model short falls.

John
Logged
muddog16
Example is more powerful than reproach. ~Aesop
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 506



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2009, 06:43:24 AM »

My turn, I spent 20 years doing process instrumentation, refineries, chemical plants and power plants, so I have a little background. Two ways of spot checking for problems in my experience were to use a infared camera, ($20,000) or a hand held Raytec.......cheapie......($200). It's hard to beat a hand held cheapie. For spot checking they are absoluted going to get you into the ball park where the problem is!  Unless you have access to oil bath calibrators or dry block,  the next best thing is to buy a calibrated certified source for comparison.  I'm not big on electrical sending units made for automobile or bus applications, loose connections, faulty wiring, corrosion, moisture can and "will" be a problem.  That said, we still use and rely on them, instrumentation comes in many different price ranges, cheap means exactly that......"cheap", if you want to spot check when you suspect or know you have a problem even a $70 IR gun will work, if you are wanting accuracy, I'm sure there are plently of locations on every engine to stall a mechanical sender or guage, I'd recommend a couple of mechanical local guages in the engine compartment, and if i was concerned then I'd run new wiring and guage to the drivers location, replacing a guage is hit and mis......especially in a 25 or 35 year old bus!     Common sense is your best way to find a problem, divide and conquer, each problem has a start and a end.  We have some really good engineers in the busing community take advantage of them.....they know their stuff.... they aren't just pretty faces!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 06:45:39 AM by muddog16 » Logged

Pat

1982 Prevost LeMirage
8V92TA/HT754

http://prevostlemirage.blogspot.com/
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2009, 09:13:51 AM »

Muddog, if you were referring to me, I appreciate your thinking I have a pretty face Cheesy

Obviously you have not met me in person Shocked

Back to the subject at hand.  If you have a DDEC engine, you can take advantage of data from the very accurate engine sensors.  The data port in the front has all the information you need.  To get it out, you can buy a DDC Pro Driver, hook up a Pro-link computer reader, or buy a product like SilverLeaf VMSpc for $395.

Full disclosure, I am a SilverLeaf dealer.  To get an idea of what you can see with the SilverLeaf, go to:  http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/Silverleaf3.htm.  I have some screen captures of my "dash".

Jim
Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!