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Author Topic: where do you spray the starting fluid?  (Read 6376 times)
bevans6
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« on: October 11, 2009, 06:59:36 AM »

It's getting cold enough that the old 8V-71 is a little hard to start.  In anticiption of the requirement, where is the proper place to spray the ether starting fluid spray?  Do I have  to take an air filter off?  Is there a secret portal in the intake?  MC-5C bus.

Thanks, Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 08:52:57 AM »

Brian,

As a know nothing Sergeant in the USAF I was given the "duty" to start the Aux Power gen for our radar set.  At 5,000 feet elevation, that puppy just would not even grunt at temps below 50 and it went to 0 degrees up there in the winter.  I sprayed fluid into the filter while cranking and she always came to life but would die if I let off the fluid.  My procedure was to keep up a steady stream till she would run on her own.  That took a full can unless it was really cold.  I have been told by "old hands" on this board that I am lucky to be ALIVE.  Get some expert advice from professionals, my friend.  Evidently, you can really hurt yourself.

John
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 09:05:26 AM »

my '04 has a small pipe plug screwed into the center of the air intact just before the blower, i unscrew it and a little shot is all it takes, (maybe 1 second) but I have a 6-71 I'm guessing a 8-71 will need a bit more.  FWIW mine only needs the ether when it's really cold.  I attached a pic the plug is right in the middle of the triangular thing by the GM  logo.


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bobofthenorth
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 09:10:47 AM »

I hate using ether but I have fed it to a lot of engines over the years.  My personal preference is to do it with two people.  Have your helper start cranking and spray a small amount - kind of like a PSSSST into the intake.  If it doesn't take off immediately give it about the same amount again.  When I hear people talk about dumping a whole can of ether into an engine I just shake my head.  Right now we own a worn out Powersmoke in our (storage) cube van.  It will occasionally start by itself after sitting overnight if it is a very warm day so I give it a small hit of ether pretty well every time I start it rather than killing the starter.  Even with that engine the same can of ether will likely last me as long as I own the truck.  

IOW - use as little as possible in total and when you do use it use very small amounts.  If it starts up rattling and shaking and sounding like the pistons are about to come through the heads then you used too much.  The direct answer to your question about where to spray is there may be a cap in the line that you can remove to spray directly into the intake.  I've also seen them on the blower housing sometimes.  If you can get at the intake just spraying in there works fine too.

(I see there has been a picture of a plug in the blower posted while I was typing.  I've also seen a little spring loaded cap for the same purpose and in a similar location)
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Gary '79 5C
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 09:17:18 AM »

A different angle would be do you have a block heater, and or do you wish to install same ? About an hour of the block heater and my 6V92 is ready to go.
I also have the Webasto tied into the engine coolant system, so I wake up warm and so does Mr. Detroit.

Good Luck with it ether way...
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 09:28:16 AM »

That is one reason why I like our oasis, like the webasto. I just flip the engine preheat and everybody is happy.

I have started our S60 without any preheat, when it was 0F. It took a little cranking but fired up.

God bless.

John

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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 10:24:08 AM »

One way is to do the on/off/on cranking method (you have to have good batteries for this one).  Crank for 5 seconds, wait 5 seconds, crank 5 seconds, wait 5 seconds,etc.  What this does is heat the cylinders, waiting lets the heat soak in.  Usually after the 4th or 5th try it should start.  If not-then it is time for ether.
Another way-and this is the way I start mine in cold weather-is from the back control.  Turn on the rear control, then with your finger hold the governor off control shut.  Start cranking and after about 5 seconds slowly release the governor control (still cranking) and the engine should just come up to speed.  What this does is retards the timing so that it fires more readily when cold and pre lubes the engine.  Once again if this trick does not work, then time for ether.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2009, 11:22:51 AM »

TonC said,

"What this does is retards the timing so that it fires more readily when cold and pre lubes the engine."


I don't mean to offend, But.....

I worry about that "retards" the timing thing.

2-strokes governors have nothing to do with "timing" that I am aware of.
In fact the "timing" is fixed. Only the Fuel Charge is changed.

Rolling the engine over does start oil pumping but not all that much....

Guy,

Keep in mind that grinding on the starter in cold weather usually means dead or weakening batteries. Too much cranking on a hard to start engine usually means getting out the battery charger. If it don't start on the 5th turn then either warm it up or 1-2 seconds of ether in the intake housing ( usually a flip-cup )
or plug. If it doesn't go then, Warming it up is a better approach.

Dave...
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2009, 04:32:10 PM »

The 4104 ('53-'59) with 671 had a small cup with a spring loaded cup into which the driver dropped a small capsule of ether. When the cup lid closed it had a sharp point which pierced the ether capsule.

This sent ether to the air box which entered the cyl when the engine cranked.

I use this system except, I don't have any capsules. I just squirt a small amount into the cup and close the lid. I take my time before hitting the starter because the ether needs to drift into the air box. If I do it too soon it won't start.

Since yours is an '80 model you probably don't have this system but it should because it works so well.

To me, this is much safer than squirting into the air intake. This is often over-done and can be disastrous.
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2009, 06:07:05 PM »

Quote
Good Luck with it ether way...

there ought to be a law...
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2009, 06:34:47 PM »

One other advantage of using a block heater instead of ether is that because it is warm it doesn't smoke much or even at all when you take off. And your bus heat works right away. Smiley
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kyle4501
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 07:31:07 PM »

The best place is some where else . . .  Wink

But, if that ain't an option, then I'd suggest a 1 or 2 sec burst in the afore mentioned blower inlet as you hit the starter & add additional 1 sec puffs as required to get her started.

I had to start one of my 8v71's at 40F one morning on the first trip home. It took 5 or 6 puffs before it would stay running on it's own & it has 2 cylinders that won't fire (plenty of white stinking smoke all the time  Sad )

This was taken ~30 minutes after it started! Ran good on the road tho . . . . sure suprised me!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 07:32:55 PM by kyle4501 » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2009, 10:15:38 PM »

DrDave- when starting a mechanical 2 stroke, it is starting with almost full open rack or full open injectors.  With the injectors on the 2 strokers as you increase fuel to the injector, your also decreasing the travel distance between the injector plunger and the tappet-hence the tappet hits the injector sooner which makes for advancing the timing when wanting full power.  On the other side, when the injector is closed, the plunger moves down the injector to the point that the tappet does not hit it-so no fuel is injected.  So when you hold the stop lever, then slowly release the stop lever, the injector starts at the lowest injection, which is furthest down away from the tappet-hence the injection cycle is retarded to the max-causing an easier starting cycle, rather then the normal starting cycle where the injector is almost fully open and also fully advanced.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
RJ
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2009, 11:41:18 PM »

Brian -

Since nobody else answered your "secret portal" question, I will:

The air intake for your engine on the 5C is located at the top front corner of the LH radiator compartment, between the external screen and the rad itself.  Do a little poking around that area with a strong flashlight and you'll find it.  (Starting at the air cleaner assembly and working your way up will help, too.)

If you've got strong 8Ds, then the suggestion of starting from the rear like TomC made is a good one, altho you might need to adjust the times slightly.  I used to use 10 seconds cranking, 30 seconds wait, repeat.  Usually fires on the 3rd try, rattly, bangy & smoky but running, at least for a minute or so till the cylinders warm up some more and it smooths out.  This is without ether, and I've done it this way down to about 25o or so at 6500' elevation.  Suggest you make yourself some type of tool to hold the engine shut-off lever in the "off" position while doing this, so that you don't get your jacket all wrapped up in the cooling blower belt - not a pretty sight!

If you choose to use the magic elixir, then a 1 - 2 second shot into the air intake above the rad should be sufficient, especially if you've done a little of the 10/30 sequence first.  And by the time you get back around to the rear start controls, the elixir will have dissipated sufficiently within the intake system to not hammer the engine quite as hard when it lights off.  Less is more, in this case!

OTOH, a block heater is a good investment!

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2009, 06:25:05 AM »

I used ether when I first got our Eagle. Since installing a block heater and new batts I have not needed to use it...............yet. Of course I don't live in cold up north climates either, but it gets darn cold here in West Texas. I fired ours up this past Saturday after sitting for six months, ambient temp was in the low 50's. Batts were at full charge, plugged in block heater for 30 minutes, she fired on the second crank.

BTW, our ether input has a small cap for a pellet on the inlet past the air filter, a couple of short bursts is all it has ever needed, and that was six years ago. Haven't used it since.

I would only use ether as a last result, it's not a good habit to get into.

Good Luck and be safe!

HTH,

Paul
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