Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
July 24, 2014, 10:41:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This BB is intended for the sole purpose of sharing conversion and bus related information among visitors to our web site. These rules must be followed in order for us to continue this free exchange of info. No bad mouthing of any business or individual is permitted. Absolutely no items for sale are to be posted, except in the Spare Tire board. Interested in placing a classified or web ad, please contact our advertising dept. at 714-903-1784 or e-mail to: info@busconversions.com.

   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: where do you spray the starting fluid?  (Read 6086 times)
bevans6
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 4532


1980 MCI MC-5C




Ignore
« on: October 11, 2009, 06:59:36 AM »

It's getting cold enough that the old 8V-71 is a little hard to start.  In anticiption of the requirement, where is the proper place to spray the ether starting fluid spray?  Do I have  to take an air filter off?  Is there a secret portal in the intake?  MC-5C bus.

Thanks, Brian
Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
JohnEd
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4571




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 08:52:57 AM »

Brian,

As a know nothing Sergeant in the USAF I was given the "duty" to start the Aux Power gen for our radar set.  At 5,000 feet elevation, that puppy just would not even grunt at temps below 50 and it went to 0 degrees up there in the winter.  I sprayed fluid into the filter while cranking and she always came to life but would die if I let off the fluid.  My procedure was to keep up a steady stream till she would run on her own.  That took a full can unless it was really cold.  I have been told by "old hands" on this board that I am lucky to be ALIVE.  Get some expert advice from professionals, my friend.  Evidently, you can really hurt yourself.

John
Logged

"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
zubzub
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1163


'53 4104. Roadworthy but rough around the edges.


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 09:05:26 AM »

my '04 has a small pipe plug screwed into the center of the air intact just before the blower, i unscrew it and a little shot is all it takes, (maybe 1 second) but I have a 6-71 I'm guessing a 8-71 will need a bit more.  FWIW mine only needs the ether when it's really cold.  I attached a pic the plug is right in the middle of the triangular thing by the GM  logo.


Logged

bobofthenorth
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2071



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 09:10:47 AM »

I hate using ether but I have fed it to a lot of engines over the years.  My personal preference is to do it with two people.  Have your helper start cranking and spray a small amount - kind of like a PSSSST into the intake.  If it doesn't take off immediately give it about the same amount again.  When I hear people talk about dumping a whole can of ether into an engine I just shake my head.  Right now we own a worn out Powersmoke in our (storage) cube van.  It will occasionally start by itself after sitting overnight if it is a very warm day so I give it a small hit of ether pretty well every time I start it rather than killing the starter.  Even with that engine the same can of ether will likely last me as long as I own the truck.  

IOW - use as little as possible in total and when you do use it use very small amounts.  If it starts up rattling and shaking and sounding like the pistons are about to come through the heads then you used too much.  The direct answer to your question about where to spray is there may be a cap in the line that you can remove to spray directly into the intake.  I've also seen them on the blower housing sometimes.  If you can get at the intake just spraying in there works fine too.

(I see there has been a picture of a plug in the blower posted while I was typing.  I've also seen a little spring loaded cap for the same purpose and in a similar location)
Logged

R.J.(Bob) Evans
1981 Prevost 8-92, 10 spd
My website
Our weblog
Simply growing older is not the same as living.
Gary '79 5C
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 613




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 09:17:18 AM »

A different angle would be do you have a block heater, and or do you wish to install same ? About an hour of the block heater and my 6V92 is ready to go.
I also have the Webasto tied into the engine coolant system, so I wake up warm and so does Mr. Detroit.

Good Luck with it ether way...
Logged

Experience is something you get Just after you needed it....
Ocean City, NJ
John316
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3212

MCI 1995 DL3, DD S60, Allison B500.




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 09:28:16 AM »

That is one reason why I like our oasis, like the webasto. I just flip the engine preheat and everybody is happy.

I have started our S60 without any preheat, when it was 0F. It took a little cranking but fired up.

God bless.

John

Posted from my Itouch
Logged

MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6671





Ignore
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 10:24:08 AM »

One way is to do the on/off/on cranking method (you have to have good batteries for this one).  Crank for 5 seconds, wait 5 seconds, crank 5 seconds, wait 5 seconds,etc.  What this does is heat the cylinders, waiting lets the heat soak in.  Usually after the 4th or 5th try it should start.  If not-then it is time for ether.
Another way-and this is the way I start mine in cold weather-is from the back control.  Turn on the rear control, then with your finger hold the governor off control shut.  Start cranking and after about 5 seconds slowly release the governor control (still cranking) and the engine should just come up to speed.  What this does is retards the timing so that it fires more readily when cold and pre lubes the engine.  Once again if this trick does not work, then time for ether.  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Hartley
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1217





Ignore
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2009, 11:22:51 AM »

TonC said,

"What this does is retards the timing so that it fires more readily when cold and pre lubes the engine."


I don't mean to offend, But.....

I worry about that "retards" the timing thing.

2-strokes governors have nothing to do with "timing" that I am aware of.
In fact the "timing" is fixed. Only the Fuel Charge is changed.

Rolling the engine over does start oil pumping but not all that much....

Guy,

Keep in mind that grinding on the starter in cold weather usually means dead or weakening batteries. Too much cranking on a hard to start engine usually means getting out the battery charger. If it don't start on the 5th turn then either warm it up or 1-2 seconds of ether in the intake housing ( usually a flip-cup )
or plug. If it doesn't go then, Warming it up is a better approach.

Dave...
Logged

Never take a knife to a gunfight!
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3486





Ignore
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2009, 04:32:10 PM »

The 4104 ('53-'59) with 671 had a small cup with a spring loaded cup into which the driver dropped a small capsule of ether. When the cup lid closed it had a sharp point which pierced the ether capsule.

This sent ether to the air box which entered the cyl when the engine cranked.

I use this system except, I don't have any capsules. I just squirt a small amount into the cup and close the lid. I take my time before hitting the starter because the ether needs to drift into the air box. If I do it too soon it won't start.

Since yours is an '80 model you probably don't have this system but it should because it works so well.

To me, this is much safer than squirting into the air intake. This is often over-done and can be disastrous.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
kd5kfl
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 69




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2009, 06:07:05 PM »

Quote
Good Luck with it ether way...

there ought to be a law...
Logged
Ed Hackenbruch
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2357




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2009, 06:34:47 PM »

One other advantage of using a block heater instead of ether is that because it is warm it doesn't smoke much or even at all when you take off. And your bus heat works right away. Smiley
Logged

1968 MCI 5A with 8V71 and Allison MT644 transmission.  Western USA
kyle4501
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3122


PD4501 South Carolina




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 07:31:07 PM »

The best place is some where else . . .  Wink

But, if that ain't an option, then I'd suggest a 1 or 2 sec burst in the afore mentioned blower inlet as you hit the starter & add additional 1 sec puffs as required to get her started.

I had to start one of my 8v71's at 40F one morning on the first trip home. It took 5 or 6 puffs before it would stay running on it's own & it has 2 cylinders that won't fire (plenty of white stinking smoke all the time  Sad )

This was taken ~30 minutes after it started! Ran good on the road tho . . . . sure suprised me!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 07:32:55 PM by kyle4501 » Logged

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. (R.M. Nixon)
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6671





Ignore
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2009, 10:15:38 PM »

DrDave- when starting a mechanical 2 stroke, it is starting with almost full open rack or full open injectors.  With the injectors on the 2 strokers as you increase fuel to the injector, your also decreasing the travel distance between the injector plunger and the tappet-hence the tappet hits the injector sooner which makes for advancing the timing when wanting full power.  On the other side, when the injector is closed, the plunger moves down the injector to the point that the tappet does not hit it-so no fuel is injected.  So when you hold the stop lever, then slowly release the stop lever, the injector starts at the lowest injection, which is furthest down away from the tappet-hence the injection cycle is retarded to the max-causing an easier starting cycle, rather then the normal starting cycle where the injector is almost fully open and also fully advanced.  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
RJ
Former Giant Greenbrier Owner
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2776





Ignore
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2009, 11:41:18 PM »

Brian -

Since nobody else answered your "secret portal" question, I will:

The air intake for your engine on the 5C is located at the top front corner of the LH radiator compartment, between the external screen and the rad itself.  Do a little poking around that area with a strong flashlight and you'll find it.  (Starting at the air cleaner assembly and working your way up will help, too.)

If you've got strong 8Ds, then the suggestion of starting from the rear like TomC made is a good one, altho you might need to adjust the times slightly.  I used to use 10 seconds cranking, 30 seconds wait, repeat.  Usually fires on the 3rd try, rattly, bangy & smoky but running, at least for a minute or so till the cylinders warm up some more and it smooths out.  This is without ether, and I've done it this way down to about 25o or so at 6500' elevation.  Suggest you make yourself some type of tool to hold the engine shut-off lever in the "off" position while doing this, so that you don't get your jacket all wrapped up in the cooling blower belt - not a pretty sight!

If you choose to use the magic elixir, then a 1 - 2 second shot into the air intake above the rad should be sufficient, especially if you've done a little of the 10/30 sequence first.  And by the time you get back around to the rear start controls, the elixir will have dissipated sufficiently within the intake system to not hammer the engine quite as hard when it lights off.  Less is more, in this case!

OTOH, a block heater is a good investment!

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
Logged

RJ Long
PD4106-2784 No More
Fresno CA
Dreamscape
Dreamscape
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3280


1968 Silver Eagle Model 01 8V71 Allison 740 #7443


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2009, 06:25:05 AM »

I used ether when I first got our Eagle. Since installing a block heater and new batts I have not needed to use it...............yet. Of course I don't live in cold up north climates either, but it gets darn cold here in West Texas. I fired ours up this past Saturday after sitting for six months, ambient temp was in the low 50's. Batts were at full charge, plugged in block heater for 30 minutes, she fired on the second crank.

BTW, our ether input has a small cap for a pellet on the inlet past the air filter, a couple of short bursts is all it has ever needed, and that was six years ago. Haven't used it since.

I would only use ether as a last result, it's not a good habit to get into.

Good Luck and be safe!

HTH,

Paul
Logged

Becky and Paul Lawry, On The Road
Travel Blog - http://dreamscapetravels.wordpress.com/
Bus Blog - http://dreamscapesilvereagle.wordpress.com/
______________________________________________________

Our coach was originally owned by the Dixie Echoes.
bevans6
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 4532


1980 MCI MC-5C




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2009, 06:42:06 AM »

Thanks, RJ, appreciate the specific advice.  I do have a block heater, have verified it works fine, I have pretty good 8D's and so far in mid 30's it has started with a routine of 3 seconds of crank, 10 seconds wait, starts on the third or fourth repeat (this without block heater, I'm doing tests so to speak).  I figure I am heating the combustion chambers that way.  I will try the 10 second 30 second routine as well.  So it seems normal enough per the comments.  I am going to get a trickle charger for the 8D's (actually a 10 amp three stage charger that has maintenance mode) so that whenever I have power or the gen running I can be topping them up. 

I was just confused, I read about using a little ether and I could not for the life of me figure out where to spray it.  When I use it on gas engines I take the air cleaner off and spray directly into the carb mouth, in case there is a backfire inside the air cleaner.

Cheers, all!  Off on our fall trip this weekend!

Brian
Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
belfert
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5391




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2009, 08:35:18 AM »

I don't use ether with my Series 60 and it seems to start just fine down to around 25 degrees.  (I have not tried at lower temps.)  I had to call roadside assistance for a jump start once and the guy wanted to use ether.  I insisted that he not use ether and it started just fine with a jump start.

Dina decided to plumb part of the passenger heating system into the spot where a block heater would install so I don't have a block heater. 
Logged

Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Tenor
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 991



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2009, 09:41:10 AM »

Brian,
In case the line that was mentioned earlier is not there, look on the top of the air intake for your blower for a small hole.  Mine may have had a plug or something in it, but it's gone.  A quick little spray and then a rear start should do the job in extreme cases.  Good luck!

Glenn
Logged

Glenn Williams
Lansing, MI
www.threemenandatenor.com
1968 MCI 7 Ser. No. 7476 Unit No. 10056
8v71
4 speed Spicer
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3486





Ignore
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2009, 02:26:45 PM »

Again, if you use ether directly into the air box (NOT the air intake through the filter) you need to wait a minute or so before hitting the starter. If you hit the starter right away it won't work nearly as well.

It doesn't take a lot, I would hesitate to ever squirt ether directly into the air box for even a full second. If you don't get enough the first time do the same thing again. It always starts on the second time for me, and on the first time 90% of the time.

This method eliminates 99% of the white smoke cloud I experienced the first time I tried to start it in 29* weather without ether!!

I always use ether now if the temp is 45* or below. It is quick and easy and I don't buy the naysayers who say it is bad for the engine. They don't say why it is bad? It sure is a lot easier on starters and batteries.

When warm, or when cold using ether, my 671 always starts on the first revolution. I'm never comfortable with cranking it for more than that because I know something is wrong.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2009, 03:22:31 PM »

Who has a picture of the ether cup that the gel "bombs" were stuck into?

That's the first place, if you've still got one.

just a sniff, as noted by many others.

And, you can crank that engine lots longer than 3 seconds.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
rv_safetyman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2199


Jim Shepherd


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2009, 07:35:55 AM »

Concerning starting a Series 60 (quite different from a two-stroke), I had a situation where we got got in a terrible snow storm.  We parked in a Wal Mart and when we woke up,it was zero! 

We have an Aqua-Hot and I fired up the engine heat circuit.  When I tried to start the engine about a half hour later it did not want to start.  It sounded like it was not cranking fast enough.  I have my start and house battery banks separated at all times (two alternators), but I have a manual plug that I can connect the two. 

I connected the batteries and started the generator.  The generator started fine, since I had run it a few times during the night and the heat soak/insulated enclosure helped. 

In any case, I left the batteries connected for a few minutes and the combination of higher voltage and warmer block did the trick.  Did not have ether with us.  Could have gone into Wal Mart, but did not need to. 

I am not a fan of ether, but it is standard procedure for many diesels in northern climates.  The truck I converted came from Canada.  It had an ether injector with an electric controlled valve.  The ether was in a tank that looked like a propane screw on tank for a torch.  It had a DT466, which is a good engine, but will not start in cold temperatures.  I have seen the same option on farm tractors as well.

One last thought.  DDEC engines are quite critical of battery voltage.  I can't quote the voltage where it will not function, but it is in the 11 volt range.  When you are starting, it is pretty easy to get a voltage drop that could bring the voltage low enough that the engine will not start (ether or not)

Jim
Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Van
Billy Van Hagen
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2332


89' Silver Eagle 15/40 6V92MUI Boulder City,NV




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2009, 10:21:38 AM »

Bw, Heres a shot of ours
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 10:35:25 AM by van » Logged

If you are not living on the edge, then you're takin' up too much space!!!
bevans6
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 4532


1980 MCI MC-5C




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2009, 10:28:48 AM »

That helps me a lot, thank you very much indeed!

Brian
Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
NCbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1261


"Foolish Pleasure" 35' MC5A




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2009, 03:42:43 PM »

Nowhere in this thread has anyone mentioned shortening a connecting rod by using Ether! Detroit's, being 2 cycle engines really cannot tolerate too much use of Ether. Cat's and Cummins, being 4 stroke cycle engines, can tolerate it in Emergencies.

Some years ago the compounds in WD 40 were mild enough to start most stubborn diesel engines but they, for a reason unknown to me, changed the formula and it is not as effective as it once was for solving this problem.

Without question a block heater helps. It maintains a reasonable temperature in the block, isn't hot enough to open the thermostat to allow cold coolant into the block, and helps to maintain piston and ring size for easier starting.

I would recommend consulting a good 2 stroke man to help you solve your problems.

NCbob
Logged

True friends are difficult to find, hard to leave and impossible to forget.
bevans6
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 4532


1980 MCI MC-5C




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2009, 03:55:55 PM »

NCBob, thanks for your thought, which had definitely occured to me as well.  Ether has a lot of energy.  WD40 used to have a flammable propellant, which made it good for starting things.  the Stoddard solvent that is most of it isn't that flammable, if it is at all.  The safety mavens made them change it.  Liquid WD-40, which is how I buy and use it (I use a lot of it on race cars, it's my rustproofing), isn't at all flammable.

I should also say that I don't think I have a problem at all with the engine.  I've started it no problem after a 30 degree night, and it's only taken a minute or so of intermittant cranking and waiting, and then it smoothed out with about 15 seconds of running.  so as far as I know my little 8V-71 is doing exactly what we all hope they will do, acting just like it should.

Point of WD-40 interest.  I make exhaust headers from mild steel for my race  cars, and for customers, from time to time.  If you soak a hot header in WD-40 after it comes off the track, not only does it  make a lot of weirdly fragrant smoke, it soon takes on a rust proof coating a lot like a  well seasoned frying pan does.  if you spent  20 hours or $800 on a header, you really don't want it to go all rusty the first time you run  in the rain!

Brian
Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3486





Ignore
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2009, 04:33:25 PM »

Since the 4104 w/671 came from the factory with a cup for starting with ether I have no qualms about using it. If it was good enough for Trailways it is good enough for me.

The important thing is that Trailways used a controlled amount of ether with those capsules so it is important to use it sparingly.

As I said before, it works great for me and results in effortless starts in cool/cold weather. Of course cold here in the mild south is nothing like that faced by you guys in the frozen northern wasteland!!
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
Ed Hackenbruch
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2357




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2009, 08:08:11 PM »

Many years ago when i started running equipment i was told that too big of a shot of ether could blow the head off of a motor. don't know how true that is but i suspect that it could maybe crack a head.
Logged

1968 MCI 5A with 8V71 and Allison MT644 transmission.  Western USA
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!