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Author Topic: Double coin tires  (Read 5163 times)
wal1809
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« on: October 26, 2009, 07:17:04 AM »

ALright we were headed out Friday to go to the lake and I saw a crack in the sidewall of the driver's side tire wall.  I went to the tire store and got an education on tires and tire prices.  I plan on doing replacing all 8 tires he in the near future so I opted for the cheaper doubel coin tire for now.

It seemed to perform very well so far as handling on the road, rolling smooth ect.  It was $200 cheaper than the Michelin and other brands.  I did a search on here but found no mention of the Double Coin tires.  How about we have an opinion exchange on Double Coin.  My bro In law says he does not like them at all and says they are cheap.  However when asked for an example he was not able to provide good info to teach me anything.  "Because they are cheap" does not create a point to debate in my book.

So Double Coin.  Lets hear it.
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2009, 07:50:37 AM »

Well, they are chinese made tires, imported by China Manufacturing Alliance, who have been in business in the US since 1992, a quick google showed no obvious threads where they failed and killed people or anything like that, the warranty is pro-rated by tread remaining for 5 years, no road hazard, just manufacturing defect.  They seem to be what they seem to be - a cheap, Chinese made imported tire.  They are probably just fine for your use, which is presumably lightly loaded for the tire rating, and very low projected mileage over the life of the tire.  Save $200 a tire times 8, I'd probably buy them in a heartbeat!  so you replace them in 6 years instead of 8, who know what you'll be doing in 6 or 8 years?

Brian
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 11:41:40 AM »

Wayne,
They are in fact a Chinese tire.
I have had a bad experience with one. But I really think it was more due to a lazy mechanic, than the tire itself! (an 11R22.5 not a 12R or 315/80R22.5 that most of us use)

The tire had looked low to me on a post trip inspection, so I asked our mechanic (past mechanic, not present) to check them all! He told me "I just checked them before you went out because that driver side tag looked low!"
So I asked was it? "No just looks like it!" he said. 
Well several days later my dad saw it and insisted that I check it!, even though we'd been told it was fine!
So I checked it and low and behold it only had 38 lbs in it!
When I asked the mechanic about it he said "No I didn't check it, we don't have a tire gauge that will work on those rims with the small hole!" I told him that was BS, I'd just checked it.
I also picked up the phone and called NAPA and ordered a new gauge for every bus, so that excuse would not be used again!
That fact is the mechanic didn't want to do it, maybe because he had to "work" at it.

Bottom line is I know of several truckers that have been using them for several yrs with no complaints!
Also in  your favor is the fact that most all the Eagles I have seen run 11R24.5 tires instead of 12R22.5 or 315/80R 22.5 as most model buses run! Last time I checked these sizes weren't available in a Double-Coin. (I myself am a little reluctant to run them as we haul passengers for a living, which means we're only one accident away from being out of business!)
FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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wal1809
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 02:57:39 PM »

I have the 24.5 and they are pretty high all the way around.  I got a price range up to $650 for a Michelin.  $375 for a Double Coin looked pretty good.  I don't like buying Chinese though.  I have to choose the pocket book or political stance.
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 02:59:59 PM »

Wal,

I can identify with that. Sad Embarrassed
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 03:05:13 PM »

Let us know, which way you go.  I don't like buying Chinese either,, however,,,,,,,,,,,

Bill
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 05:07:40 PM »

Once again-tires are alot more then just big round rubber things that hold air and support the weight of your bus.  I can say that probably the Chinese tires will hold up the bus.  But-how will it perform in hot weather, in cold slippery snowy or icy conditions, or what kind of traction will they have both for acceleration and especially for braking?  When you consider that braking distance-that a mear 5 ft difference in braking distance can make or break your bus with massive amount of damage.  Personally-I know that Michelin has spent countless hours and massive amounts of money to test and retest their tires in real life situations to make sure they perform to the maximum of their capability.  Do you think the Chinese tire manufacturers do this? Do you think the Chinese tire manufacturers even care if your getting good traction or not-no they just want you to buy their tires-that's why they cost so little.  Also, fuel mileage and tire design go hand in hand.  Do yourselves a favor-don't buy the cheapest tire out there-buy the best tire for your application.  This is why Michelin makes over 40 models of tires just for on and on/off road trucks and buses.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 05:20:15 PM »

I've never seen a Michelin tire that I'd bother crossing the street to take a second look at, I had a set of 4 on a 69 merc montego that 3 failed  within 5000 miles of buying, all 3 were replaced and those also failed, I wouldn't look at them again for years until I bought a 1976 ford bronco that had a new set on it, 2 of the 4 failed and were replaced with 2 that ultimately failed, so I gave up on them until I bought a 93 jeep grand cherokee with them, again 3 of the 4 failed, I think they are over priced for the second rate tires they are.  Each time I went to other tires and got good service, I'll never bother with michelins anymore.  Some people swear by them but I really don't know why, in this area you can't give them away.  I've had excellent luck with bridgestone and yokohama tires tho and some goodyears.
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 06:17:22 PM »

 TomC, are you trying to tell us Michelin doesn't manufacture tires in China this is the same bs as when the Japan tires came on the market in the 70's  why spend twice the money for a tire that cracks faster than any tire on the market.
 I will agree with Cody on this one I never had any luck with Michelins over the years
Cole didn't buy many Frieghtliners (none now he owns a KW dealership)   but when he did he paid extra to have Bridgestones put on the new truck
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 01:47:06 AM »

All good info, My $0.02 is that on cars and vans, I have never been disappointed with Michelins. Still running on my '99 & '83 MB cars.
I will never get the mileage out of any tires for the bus before 10 years.
I have looked at Michelins/Coopers for steers/drives @ about $2,200 (no tag axle) then looked at Bridgestones, but have a quote for install, disposal, taxes and balancing beads in (6) 11R24.5 Firestone FS590's for $2,000.
Anyone with a story about the Firestone 590's road noise, poor steer, breaking of the decoupling groove ? ? ? ?
My driving is about 5K /yr, mostly interstates.
Thanks, sorry to kinda hi-jack, but related.
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 01:49:06 AM »

I have run Michelin, Bridgestone and the imports when I had over the road trucks and the imports definetly fell behind. No matter what tire you inquire about there will always be a story about how they failed and "I'll never buy'em again". There's enough real world statistics out there to show how good Michelins are including trueness, fuel mileage, balancing, and life expectancy. I think they are extremely overpriced and wont buy them but personally know people with fleet statistics that can show why they are cost effective in high mileage fleet applications.
My new wheels and tires just came in, I ordered the 315/80/ 22.5 (stock size) and really did'nt have many brand options. The Michelin was just crazy money (Bridgestone was within $20.00) so I asked for anything in a major brand name and eneded up with Firestone for half the price- I just found out Firestone is made in the Far East but I have had great luck with them in the past. It does make sense to save money on your tires but remember who's traveling on them tires. Like Bryce said, All it takes is one accident.
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 10:18:24 AM »

My bus is an '84 model 10. I did a similar thing and bought two Chinese tires for the steers and paid about the same as the double coins.
On further inspection we decided that it was time to bite the bullet and get rid of the remaining 6 tires. These were approaching 9 yrs old and were loaded with dry rot cracks.
My research brought me to Firestone's, made in Nashville, TN. They have a wonderful guarantee program as the tires are expected to go as much as a million miles with recapping. 
The 6 tires installed actually cost me slightly less than the Chinese copies. I have run them several thousand miles and so far love them as much as you can love a tire. They seem to be very smooth and round. I wish I could say they've kicked my fuel millage up but they haven't done that. I have a 6v92 TA that has returned right at 7mpg for the almost 10 years I've owned this bus.
The Chinese imposter's? They're on the boggies. probably the only new tires that have been on the boggies since the bus was built.
Good luck
Alan
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Alan Baker
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 10:48:43 AM »

I replaced 27 year old Michelins with Bridgestones.  Couldn't afford Michelin's price in San Diego, $645.00 per tire was the cheapest quote.

Went to a Bridgestone store and they first put on Chinese tires not the Bridgestone tires I thought I ordered.  The ride went from dream to terrible.  I went to an alignment store and they couldn't balance or align because the tires were so far out of latitudinal and longitudinal round. 

Finally got the Bridgestones installed and back to riding like a dream.  Don't know about fuel mileage, sidewall toughness, stopping distance etc. I only know that the ride is wonderful.

Mike
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 06:17:59 PM »

 Just replaced all 8 tires on the Eagle hated to didn't have any miles but dad had put them on
ten years ago. A couple are almost 12 years by date code, so I guess they were sitting around.
No cracks still look good , but I don't want no blowout.

What I took off was Kumo's. What I put back was Kumo's 11r24.5 KRS02 16 ply  $284.84

mounted the new tires on a set of accuride alum. wheels, that I think I stole from a Busnut.( needed a lot of elbow grease to polish).

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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 07:18:40 PM »

The company I work for tried the double coins on our fuel tankers for a year.   They wore quickly, not getting anywhere near the mileage that Michelins did.  Also, they tend to pick up more debris causing flats or low tires than Michelins.  In any case, we were not impressed.

Kevin
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2009, 09:23:21 PM »

I wasn't trying so much to push the Michelins, but trying to convey that the Chinese tires have nothing more then an initial cheap price to offer.  Personally-with my butt in the drivers seat, my wife in the passenger seat, and me driving 34,500lbs (with the towed) down the road, I want the best tire under me that has been tested for traction and braking.  Not an imitation tire that "looks good" from the outside-like the Chinese tires.  The only place I would run a Chinese tire is on a trailer, and since we don't pull big semi trailers-well that pretty much eliminates Chinese tires in my book.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2009, 04:19:54 AM »

Thats what we all want Tom, a dependable safe tire under us, thats why I eliminated michelins from my personal choices, and only because of my own personal experiances, I know nothing about the chinese tires and they would scare me as well, bridgestone and yokohama seem to be my personal favorites because of the excellent service I've gotten from them.
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2009, 06:01:14 AM »

I'll admit I have zero experience with the Double Coin tires, but I have been following this thread and keep asking myself one question: "WHY are the Double Coin tires that much less expensive?"

I realize that Michelin, Goodyear, Bridgestone and the rest of the big boys sink serious money into advertising budgets and race sponsorships, but I can't believe it accounts for hundreds of dollars per tire. Besides, most of that promotional $ is directed toward the passenger car segment, and I'm not sure these companies require the commercial truck tire division to carry much of those costs.

So that brings me back to my original question.  I have been thinking about this from two points of view: the production cost side and the free market side.

On the production side, the costs are driven by three things:  raw materials, labor, and general overhead.  No way Double Coin gets their materials THAT much cheaper.  Michelin, Goodyear, and others each have plants in China to benefit from cheap labor as well.   Double Coin does not however, have to support the corporate infrastructures in Akron, or France. So maybe therein lies the difference.

But it's the "free market" thing that really has me questioning a Double Coin tire purchase. Double Coin is not a newcomer to the market, since they have been around for years. In our semi-free market society there has been ample time for prices to seek their natural level ala ECON101.  The only conclusion I can draw is that Double Coin sets their prices hundreds of dollars less per tire simply because they HAVE to.  I believe word spreads amongst truckers and other in-the-know tire folks, establishing the perceived value of these tires.  This has driven the market to set the Double Coin pricing to the point where it has settled.  If Double Coin users felt that these tires were nearly as good as the big boys, we would not find ourselves where we are today. Either the price would have floated closer to Michelin/Goodyear/Bridgestone, or Double Coin would be eating their lunch in the market place. Neither has happened, so apparently the market consensus (based on the huge price disparity) is that these tires are not even close to the value of the major players.

As I see it, the one glimmer of hope for the busnut purchaser of Double Coin tires is that their own needs are a bit different than the rest of the market place. Assume for a moment that the Double Coins are just as safe a tire, just as smooth riding, just as resistent to weather and cracking, but they simply wear out in less miles.  To a trucker, this would have a big affect on the tire value.  To the average busnut (some company excluded) this might be irrelevent.  Many of us will end up replacing tires based on their age long before we ever wear a set out.  So the conclusion I have drawn for myself is "Unless I can confirm that the assumptions listed above are all correct, and mileage is the only difference, the Double Coins have a true value commensurate with their price -- namely "low."  ... and my family won't be riding on them.
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2009, 06:18:07 AM »

That's an intelligent argument but doesn't distinguish between the perceived quality of the tyres (in what is an ultra-conservative, if not prejudiced, market segment), and the actual quality. It may be that Double Coin tyres are actually a very smart choice indeed, precisely because the market has set the price so low.

I'd never even heard of them before, incidentally, so I'm not attempting to make a recommendation either way.


Jeremy
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 06:28:11 AM »

However, with the free market system, somebody else would undercut them. Meaning, if Double Coin made a great tire, at a low price, everybody would buy them. Then the other tire manufactures would all of a sudden start dropping their prices. That is how the free market works. Somebody else builds a good product cheaper, then it puts the more expensive out of business.

The same can be for anything. A grunt laborer can't make fifty bucks an hour. Somebody else is going to come in, and work for 30 an hour, and the original is out of a job, and will work for less.

FWIW

I still love our Michilens, and Bridgestones.

God bless,

John
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 06:52:16 AM »

My Brother and I each bought enclosed car haul trailers to tote Our street rods.  Both of us had complete tire failures within a couple of hundred miles!  No more chinese tires for Me unless they have an american name on them meaning they have some quality control.  If You buy a Haulmark trailer change the tires before You use the trailer period.  Regards John
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2009, 06:53:25 AM »

I don't use cheaper tires but they work for people that use their coach 5 or 6 k miles a year and on a premium tire you pay for the advertisement.
 I read where Michelin paid some ad agency in NY 138 million a year for ads who pays for that ? we do as consumers that is a lot of tires people  




good luck
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2009, 06:59:49 AM »

Quote from: luvrbus
I don't use cheaper tires but they work for people that use their coach 5 or 6 k miles a year and on a premium tire you pay for the advertisement.
 I read where Michelin paid some ad agency in NY 138 million a year for ads who pays for that ? we do as consumers that is a lot of tires people  
good luck

Clifford you are so right!
As consumers & tax payers as much of the advertising is writen off on taxes!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2009, 08:45:54 AM »

Interesting to note that Michelin passenger car tires are produced in China by a stock holding company called Shanghai Michelin Warrior Tire (SMWT).  Up until July of this year Michelin owned 70% of SMWT, with most of the rest of SMWT (28.5%) owned by ...........   drum roll .........  Double Coin Holding Co.

In July, Michelin purchased the Double Coin shares, as well as the other 1.5%, and now completely owns SMWT.   As near as I can tell, SMWT produces the Michelin passenger car tires in China, and Double Coin continues to manufacture the truck tires separately.   The press release states however that Michelin and Double Coin continue to "collaborate".

Ref:
 http://www.michelin.com/corporate/actualites/fr/actu_affich.jsp?id=25303&codeRubrique=57&lang=FR


Also, back in May of this year, Michelin brought patent and copywrite suits against Double Coin dealers in the U.S. claiming that their RT606 model copied the tread pattern of the Michelin ZXE.


Ref:
 http://www.thetrucker.com/News/Stories/2007/5/9/Michelinfilessuitoverlook-aliketires.aspx


Ah, tis a strange world we live in....
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2009, 10:16:26 AM »

Interesting - Is Michelin suing themselves  Huh
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2009, 10:50:57 AM »

These days I don't see where country of origin makes a bit of difference.  People do the joint-ventures, sub-contract both manufacturing and design, own multiple layers of companies and brands, to the point where all that matters is price, availability and service.  You can't even go by track record anymore, production can be moved from plant to plant, country to country, raw materials sourced from different places.

I personally think that you can find many examples of manufacturing defects and problems with tires from anywhere.  I think they are as close to a true commodity as you can find.  So price, availability, service and support from your local dealer, start to play a far bigger role than brand name for me.  I haven't bought a "brand name" tire in many years - I let my local tire dealer, who knows far more about tires than I do, choose my tires.  He is far pickier than I am about what he puts on my vehicles, believe it or not, and his track record is 100%.  My tire dealer is a funny duck, I don't know how he stays in business but he is very successful.  He torques ever lug and gives you a reminder car to come back after 100Km for a free retorque.  He stores your off-season wheels and tires for free, and swaps them for you for free spring and fall.  I race cars, he knows that, and he mounts and balances my race tires for free, even though I don't buy them from him.  I picked up a nail one day on the way to the airport, I was in a rush, he pulled the wheel off, patched the tire (from the inside), balanced it and reinstalled it, for free, even though they were the new tires on the new car and he hadn't sold me a thing for it yet!  When I need new tires for the bus, I'll just give him a call and say I need six 12R22.5's, let me know what you have and when I should come down...

Actually, coming to think about it, all the tires he's sold me in the past decade were to replace "name brand" tires that came as OEM fitment on my vehicles that had issues, failures, or otherwise had to be replaced prematurely.  I wonder what's up with that?
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2009, 12:35:45 PM »

Interesting - Is Michelin suing themselves  Huh

Well, actually no.   First off, the lawsuits deal with the truck side of Double Coin Holdings.  If I am interpreting what I am reading correctly, Michelin bought the remainder of SMWT, which is the passenger car side of Double Coin.   Secondly, Michelin chose to bring the lawsuit against the U.S DEALERS for Double Coin, which presumably is easier to handle in the courts than going through the process in China.
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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2009, 07:06:09 PM »

Interesting - Is Michelin suing themselves  Huh

Niles that thar is funny! I don't care who ya are! LOL! Grin

But as I was ROFLMAO! I had to stop and think about it and laugh again!

I was sitting in court once to fight a ticket I'd gotten, and of course you ya know how ya gotta sit thru almost everybody but yerself usually. So I'm sitting here listening and this guy is in court over like $34,000 in bad checks !
When the judge asked him "how do you plead?"
He gave one word. "Insanity"
The judge gave him a funny look and said "Now listen young man this is very serious, and I advise you to think about that answer for a minute."
The guy said "I have thought about it judge, and I must of been crazy ! If you'll notice 1/2 of those checks/charges are from one of my own bank accounts were I wrote a check to myself to cover the other ones on another bank. I must of been crazy to think I'd get away with writing myself bad checks!"
By now the whole court was rolling on the floor, and even the judge had trouble keeping a straight face or falling out laughing as he BELOWED out "Order in the court! ...... The court will now pause for a 15 minute recess! Adjourning @ 2:15 PM"
It was hilarious because the whole court was blasting out laughing so hard most of us were actually crying! Also as the judge entered his chambers you could here him burst out laughing!
Once the court adjourned you could see the judge was still having trouble keeping his composure, as he said to the guy. "Young man, this is a serious matter, and I advise you to seek council before we continue this case!"
The guy responded to the judge "Sir, I respect you and your advise, but no attorney in this county will represent me, as one of the bad checks I wrote was to an attorney! And I'd really like to just get this done and over with so I can put this all behind me and get on with my life!"
The judge looked at him, smiled and said "If your sure about that, then we'll proceed. Now I want to warn you that regardless of how funny it was, your last response to the question of how do you plead was inappropriate and invalid. So how do you plead?
The guy said "Well judge I am sorry, and I guess I am guilty as charged!"
The judge then asked "well since you say you are ready to get this over with and get on with your life, are you willing and able to make restitution on all these checks, fees, and court costs?"
The guy said "Sure.........take a check?"
Again the court burst into laughter and the stood up and said "Young man I can assure you, it'll be the last bad check you write for about 20yrs if it's no good!" And walked straight into his chambers without another word! Grin

Sorry just the thought of Michelin suing themselves reminded me of this guy insinuating he wrote himself bad checks!
 Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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