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Author Topic: Exhaust blankets?  (Read 3881 times)
johns4104s
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« on: December 01, 2009, 05:29:47 AM »


I should receive my S&W Turbo back and install it mid Dec. I was thinking about adding exhaust blankets. I know it will keep the heat down in the engine room but in doing so I see it shooting the internal exuahst pipe temperatures way up. Does this very high internal temperature negatively effect the life or the performance of the exaust piping?

John
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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2009, 05:56:26 AM »

John, I have the blankets on the manifold, piping and the turbo hot housing never been a problem in 15 years the piping looks new they force the heat to the turbo making for a little more turbo performance and they are a good  safety factor also.
Don Fairchild along with others sell those give him a call for a price but sit down first they are not cheap like the exhaust tape.
Great thing about buying from Don he knows what fits for your engine that way no need for the measurnents and the questions and answer thing with other suppliers  



good luck
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 06:13:53 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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johns4104s
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 08:12:08 AM »

Cliff,

In my old field we would wrap pipe welds, pressure vessel welds etc, and heat them up to 1100/2200 deg f, With no insulation we would never have made temperature. The saying in the industries is You Can Stress Relieve with a candle if your insulation is good.

I feel better knowing you feel its not detrimental to the exhaust piping,

John




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JohnEd
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 11:47:38 AM »

I can second what Cliff says.  No damage and better power and MPG.  The trick words are "cooling the gas reduces the velocity and increase the resistance to flow"....bad.  Exhaust systems rot out from the inside, anyway.

I have read testimonials by users that said that they can work in their engine bay after pulling off the highway.  To me that is preposterous but so many have said it I have to believe it is that good.  Sure would cool the bedroom down.

Try GOOGLE ing it, John

John
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 01:36:41 PM »

are the manifolds (obviously not the actual cast manifolds but the tubular piping up to the turbo) made of stainless or mild steel?  Also, is there a picture anywhere of the blankets?  How do they differ from the wrap material I use on some headers?  FWIW wrapping mild steel headers is a sure way to get new ones every couple of years, they just kill the first 6" of the primary tubes on a race engine.  Also, having new systems ceramic coated inside and out is a very good way to keep temperatures down, it really keeps the heat inside the tube.  Anyone done that to a bus exhaust system?

Brian
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 01:48:43 PM »

Thanks, reminds me to put mine back on. Grin
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luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 02:25:34 PM »

Brian, mine came from ATP www.atpwrap.com and yes mine covers the regular cast manifold.


good luck
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:28:06 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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JohnEd
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 02:38:09 PM »

Brian,

I am clueless as to why the first six inches would rot.  The info I have says that mild steel is not affected but you cannot wrap Stainless Steele.  Why?....dunno.

Ceramic coating the "inside" and outside is a superb idea.  It was all in vogue many years ago but the shops would only do the outside.

Gas engine exhaust is hotter than diesel....right?

I have seen many ex manifolds wrapped right along with the turbo housing and pipes.  The "blanket wrap" is soaked in water and that makes it more like wet cardboard, I am told.  After molding it to the manifold and threading SS wires around it the engine is started and run to temp. The Wrap gets hard and precisely matches the item it was wrapped around.  Fantastic stuff and is ceramic based.  Cost like the dickens but a hands down proved performer.

And it would be an opportunity to deal with Don Fairchild.  He has done a lot for us.

John
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 02:59:38 PM »

JohnEd, we are talking about 2 different systems mine is not the tape wrap go to web site I posted and take a look.


good luck
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 05:09:02 PM »

Cliff,

I understood you correctly.  Sorry if my post was vague on that.  The ATP stuff looks just like "wet wrap".  Wet Wrap is a thick blanket like stuff, just like ATP....from what I can see and remember.  Are they all that different?  Guess i should look up WET WRAP on the web.

Thanks and sorry for the confusion,

John
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 05:50:31 PM »

There are pro's and con's with "wraps"   

As Clifford mentioned by keeping the "exhaust gases" hotter> has more energy  available to turn the turbine wheel.   This will spool the turbocharger quicker thus making more engine torque sooner vs later.    However, while the engine is running no harm is done to any of the components>engine or turbocharger.    But having a hot shut down with little idle time will cause a rapid transfer of heat from the turbine housing into the bearing housing.   Since most do not run synthetics oil breakdown and coking will occur.   

The safety benifits outweigh the negatives.    If you can't wait 2 minutes to shut the engine down to wick the heat out of the turbine housing >>the life of the turbo will be reduced.    Turbochargers that have water cooled bearing housing do not need to worry about this as much..   Marine and industrial engines with water cooled  exhaust manifolds are exempt from any of the shut down damage.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 06:17:10 PM »

Kevin, that is a good point I always idle mine for 2 or 3 minutes before shutdown after a long run it's a carry over that followed me to the bus world from the Cat equipment I have owned over the years.


good luck
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Eagle Andy
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 06:19:50 PM »

I have a ? for clifford, I have the manfold blankets on mine . However I do not have them on the pips leading to the turbo. is that something I need to consider.
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 06:34:26 PM »

Thats strange Andy maybe the PO lost the rest of the set or was buying in pcs manifold covers don't do much good.
I do rembemer when he was converting your bus Dave Galey had a manifold blow out and caused a fire in his bus and everyone was rushing out to buy the covers.
Call Don and see what the other 4 pcs will cost you they do make a difference.
To bad a 6v92 set won't work for you there is a red Eagle here with a set in the bay and I know Van would not miss them LOL  


good luck
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 06:36:44 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 06:39:29 PM »

Well heck Clifford , Thats ok I can always trade for ones the fit a real DD lol just kidding Van  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 07:04:43 PM »

Oh Yeah smart guy I know where Clifford is hiding your air throttle  Shocked Shocked Shocked Grin Grin Grin LOL, besides it's red! LOL Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 08:42:09 PM »

Cliff,

I googled "wet blanket" and now I see the disconnect.  My fault...whats new.  I was looking into this stuff many years ago and the stuff like ATP was labeled "wet Wrap" I am certain....and you know what that must be worth at this stage.  TODAY I learned that "wet wrap" is the fibreglass tape that they use to wrap headers.  It must have some benefit but it must also be far less effective than ATP blankets and pipe covers.  Must....hear that?  I'll never learn.

Thanks Cliff.   The ATP site gives more ideas for when I talk to Don.

John
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 11:13:28 AM by JohnEd » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 10:34:19 PM »

Since Clifford mentioned his CAT "hardware"..     This is the largest CAT turbocharger to be installed in the US.   I was the first person to rebuild one.  The new Cat 3600 series "6 cylinder" was a repower on a Coast Guard cutter.   This new Napier failed on sea trials.   The boys in the engine shop forgot to remove the oil drain plugs (red plastic plugs)..    

This turbocharger has a solid billet compressor wheel that spun on the turbine wheel without a nut.   The inducer smallest diameter of the compressor wheel measured around 9".   I had to manufacture all the tooling to take this unit apart.   The repair manuals weren't even written yet.   This is one large turbocharger.   What you see is just the center section or cartridge.   It's on a 48" pallet.   The breaker bar that I made was 42"    

Back to the OP,  this unit was all sealed up in safety shielding/blankets, the turbo itself was water and oil cooled.   The shielding blankets are very impressive when installed on these large marine engines.   I requested that the CAT tech's not install the blankets until the turbocharger had been broken in..    I strongly recommend that folks that do install new turbochargers "wait" for awhile before the blankets get reinstalled.   Heat cycles make it or break it for your turbochargers health and long term performance..    Yes, it's easier to break everything on a engine dyno or load cell, but to mimic this in real world conditions it does take some time to get the turbine seals to seat.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 10:37:41 PM by Zeroclearance » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 11:03:35 PM »

Thats incredible.  You Photo Shop'd that entire thing....didn't you? Huh Grin Wink

Thanks for sharing,

John
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2009, 03:57:50 AM »

Zeroclearance, I have been silently following your posts and it seems you know what you are talking about. It's great to have guys like you, Clifford and Don to name a few who give us experienced knowledge sharing. I know nothing about turbo's and I find it fascinating to follow the threads on the subject. As I have an 8v71N, I don't have the turbo to help the old gal along. Maybe some day!

Please don't get PO and leave, hang in there until the end! Wink We have lost some very good DD experienced folk over the last year, it saddens me to think that our DD experienced help is shrinking. I just like to read and learn all I can so that someday I can pay it forward.

Paul
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2009, 04:31:06 AM »

You guys and many others have proved that the blankets work and are not detrimental, the heat is kept from entering into the engine room, But I do contend that having insulation wrapped around the exhaust pipes drives the heat of the pipes up at least another 200 or 300 degrees, Kevin and Clifford are correct in the mandatory idle time prior to shut down. Because I can see the blankets holding the heat in, and the heat not only transferring out of the pipes but also back in the engine.

John Ed, when Clifford says check the Webb site, its not like Goggling it, you take the cursor (point) drag it over the high lighted area and press.

John
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« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2009, 05:27:24 AM »

Any one use these on the diesel generators to keep the bay cooler?
Tom Hamrick
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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2009, 05:33:27 AM »

Any one use these on the diesel generators to keep the bay cooler?
Tom Hamrick

We have not done that, but we kept the amount of exhaust system in the compartment at the bnre minimum. The exhaust manifold and a section of exhaust pipe straight down through the floor from the exhaust manifold. Muffler and all othe exhaust system is outside the compartment. We have 3 240 CFM bilge blowers moving the air through the compartment. The temperature in the compartment is usually about 10-15 degrees above ambient temperature. Our generator radiator is also remoted outside the compartment.  Jack
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« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2009, 05:39:40 AM »

Tom, I use the blankets on my generator without a fan  but like Jack my radiator is a remote mount mine has never shut down from heat

good luck
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« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2009, 11:27:43 AM »

John4104s,

Thanks for the tip on using the cursor.  I think I got it.  Now, could ya give me a hand with this zipper?

The temp of the exhaust is not raised by the "blanket".  That temp is determined by many factors that may confuse you or this issue.  Anyway, I am sure I can't go into any depth.  Really, now.  Just think about it.  Use your common sense...not to talk down now.  The temp at the ex post wont change much by your wrapping the header pipe or header or even the bumper, for that matter.  Thimk!  You see, the end of the pipe snugly up close to the manifold used to get just so hot...right?  The wrap just lets the whole durn pipe "stay" that hot till it finds it's way to the "turbo".  It is like sex, John

Hope this helps but I will need help to break it down any further/lower cause I only have so many communication skills on tap.  Oh, and thanks for the tips, I used my cursor lots in drafting this.

some regards,

John
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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2009, 02:58:53 PM »

The temperatures are increased..   From the exit of cylinder head >exhaust manifold>turbine housing (turbo)> downpipe...

The blanket is keeping the heat from excaping thru radiation losses.   The overall temps are higher.    We have to minimize the damage to the turbine wheel/bearings/ and turbine seals on shutdowns..    Cooling the engine on idle for 2 minutes is a "great" thing..
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johns4104s
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2009, 03:03:07 PM »

John ed

Great job on the Go ogle and Cursor. Do I detect you are interested in a little help learning about the birds and bees?

The pipe without insulation transfers  the heat  away from the pipe using mosly conduction . When you wrap the insulation around the pipe you transfer the heat by convection. This heat cannot escape from under the insulation so it increases in temperature and covects up and down the pipe to the Turbo and down to the muffler. The hot engine/heat fumes push it mostly down and out.

I am sure this is over board but I feel it is the case.
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« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2009, 03:50:46 PM »

Sex?  I was talking about my jacket zipper.  Why is you mind on my crotch.

Much as I enjoy sparing with you, there is no challenge to an unarmed opponent.  We are way way off topic with this.  You have my number....and I guess I need to clarify that to Phone Number.  Off line is better for the board.  Its you call....literally.

Still love Ya,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
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« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2009, 06:43:46 PM »

On marine engines the exhaust blankets and shielding are regulatorally required for fire safety (and they do increase turbo efficency). The use of post (and prelube) pumps are also common, so as to not coke the turbo bearings.
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